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Old     (davez71)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-03-2014, 5:52 AM Reply   
I saw this surf system study posted on TeamTalk and thought I would share with WW. It a pretty interesting study and some serious time was put into this. Not sure who funded it or what but it provides facts and a wide range of data. Its a pretty cool study. Check it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peThE-tNJ0g#t=390
Old     (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       10-03-2014, 7:11 AM Reply   
I'm guessing it was Mastercraft? Very thorough and interesting. Thanks for reposting here!
Old     (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       10-03-2014, 8:06 AM Reply   
The RPM differences, which directly affect both the GPH and the CO readings can easily be explained by differences in ballast and props, which makes that part of the test completely irrelevant.
Old     (CRS_mi)      Join Date: Jul 2011       10-03-2014, 8:26 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardjnky4 View Post
The RPM differences, which directly affect both the GPH and the CO readings can easily be explained by differences in ballast and props, which makes that part of the test completely irrelevant.
Not when you are testing stock setups.
Old     (OneCent)      Join Date: Jul 2010       10-03-2014, 8:59 AM Reply   
Well, you have to include that data into the study, stock setup means nothing. Total weight of the boats, and a lot more is missing.
I don't think you will get a good score without that numbers in a thesis.

But anyway, the Gen2 System from Mastercraft is a interesting solution,

Next i wanna see 2015 MC X-30 vs. BU LSV vs. Nautique 230 - less boats but more detailed research and concentrate on the wake, who cares how the boat handles... ok, bow rise is interesting ;-)
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       10-03-2014, 9:33 AM Reply   
1st off stock ballast especially with a wedge boat vs a non wedge boat is completely different. The right way would have been all ballasted the same


While I am a science geek myself and can appreciate a nice thorough test there are a few things missing here than can easily explain the fuel consumption and added co levels as well as the RPM's.

First two that come to mind are ballast and prop. The Axis and the LSV both come with almost twice the ballast. Not to mention the wedge. Is there anyone that didn't think the wedge killed your fuel ? What props are turning these boats? These two points alone can make up for the differences. I believe the wedge at one point was equated to 900-1000lbs alone. An easy prop switch can rectify this is a heartbeat. So to me not really a huge deal. For being so detailed about everything else and then completely blowing the ballast and prop numbers one has to wonder.


As far as them measuring "push". While I applaud the effort the inconsistencies given by using a human are easily argued. You are measuring a force and a reaction to that force. In no way shape or form can that human ever give you identical results every time he pulls that rope or slows due to the wake. Also how did they determine the length of what rope to use behind each boat? This will put you in a different location every time on each boat and is the most crucial part. The sweet spot of each wake is in a different location on each boat so using a standard length rope and not actually finding the sweet spot via feel is completely pointless. This comparing the push at different parts of each of the wakes.

The amplitude no doubt in my mind this data is correct. Amplitude alone does not mean better wake. It has to do with shape, pocket size, where it curls, and how it builds. Again all great data but pointless for real world application regarding who has best surf wave. I can easily build a shoulder high surf wake by stuffing a boat with 5 k in ballast. The amplitude would be huge, but that doesn't give it great surfabilty.


Again all great data and a great video. I just don't see it data influencing boat purchases as most of the descrepancies they outlined can easily be addressed and altered. Had they made sure each boat had identical ballast and prop configurations we could see a more useful data chart. To many inconsistancies and variables to remotely even base a conclusion of which is the better choice. The only true way is to get behid one
Old     (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       10-03-2014, 9:42 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by CRS_mi View Post
Not when you are testing stock setups.
They showed CLEARLY that they were running plug and play on all boats. So neither boats were "stock". And IF they were stock, that would make the testing even worse because nobody surfs a boat with stock ballast and no plug-n-play.

Every manufacturer ships boats with different props and different options. Malibu has a standard prop (acme 537) and 3 optional props (oj 5-blade, acme 1235 and acme 2419). There is ZERO information on which prop was used for this test and same with the Mastercraft.

That variable makes or breaks the RPM, Fuel usage and CO testing.

And also as mentioned, a lot more goes into the push and size of the wake than just filling ballast. Specifically on the malibu, wedge position would have a HUGE impact on every aspect of this testing. Everything from the engine performance to the wave shape. Also, was speed mentioned? Each boat is going to perform differently at different speeds. Wave shape and push is HIGHLY dependent on this variable, and I don't recall ANY mention of it.

Last edited by boardjnky4; 10-03-2014 at 9:45 AM.
Old     (CRS_mi)      Join Date: Jul 2011       10-03-2014, 9:49 AM Reply   
Isn't the plug-n-play ballast an option that is included when you add the surf systems?
Old     (spencerwm)      Join Date: Feb 2009       10-03-2014, 9:53 AM Reply   
That video made me go. HAHAHAHAHA.

My opinions are very non-scientific. When does MasterCraft launch the "G killer"? I think October 18th or 19th. I am loosing track of time.
Old     (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       10-03-2014, 10:01 AM Reply   
Obviously this video will be referred to when selling MC boats against the competition. They have their "facts" and when challenged by a prospect, they will refer to this video as proof that the MC Gen 2 system is better than the Surfgate on all models. Right?
Old     (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       10-03-2014, 10:06 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by CRS_mi View Post
Isn't the plug-n-play ballast an option that is included when you add the surf systems?
the size of the plug and play bag is up to the consumer. usually in the case of a clueless consumer, the dealer will recommend something and the buyer will blindly go with it. an informed consumer will have done research and know what the best option is for that specific boat.
Old     (atthelake)      Join Date: Mar 2011       10-03-2014, 10:07 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardjnky4 View Post
They showed CLEARLY that they were running plug and play on all boats. So neither boats were "stock". And IF they were stock, that would make the testing even worse because nobody surfs a boat with stock ballast and no plug-n-play.

Every manufacturer ships boats with different props and different options. Malibu has a standard prop (acme 537) and 3 optional props (oj 5-blade, acme 1235 and acme 2419). There is ZERO information on which prop was used for this test and same with the Mastercraft.

That variable makes or breaks the RPM, Fuel usage and CO testing.

And also as mentioned, a lot more goes into the push and size of the wake than just filling ballast. Specifically on the malibu, wedge position would have a HUGE impact on every aspect of this testing. Everything from the engine performance to the wave shape. Also, was speed mentioned? Each boat is going to perform differently at different speeds. Wave shape and push is HIGHLY dependent on this variable, and I don't recall ANY mention of it.
I understood that these boats come "standard" with plug n play. It appeared to me they were using the presets (surf left, surf right) for the settings? Standard (at least what I have on mine and I didn't option for a different prop)on the X30 is an OJ 14.75 x 15.5 I believe.
Old     (atthelake)      Join Date: Mar 2011       10-03-2014, 10:08 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardjnky4 View Post
the size of the plug and play bag is up to the consumer. usually in the case of a clueless consumer, the dealer will recommend something and the buyer will blindly go with it. an informed consumer will have done research and know what the best option is for that specific boat.
Standard from factory PNP on X-30 is 400/ Fly-highs
Old     (atthelake)      Join Date: Mar 2011       10-03-2014, 10:10 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyb View Post
Obviously this video will be referred to when selling MC boats against the competition. They have their "facts" and when challenged by a prospect, they will refer to this video as proof that the MC Gen 2 system is better than the Surfgate on all models. Right?
I don't know why they wouldn't. I'm sure all things being "equal" Malibu would do the same.
Old     (83Starsnstripes)      Join Date: Jul 2013       10-03-2014, 1:03 PM Reply   
These guys think the A22 is 20', might want to check your numbers...
Old     (Froggy)      Join Date: Nov 2013       10-05-2014, 7:12 AM Reply   
Possibly the most bias unbiased test I have ever seen. They chose MC and BU because of market share not because they have the best systems. That's like saying Ford and GM make the best cars because they sell the most. The surfers looked like they weighed 60 lb and were 4' tall was that to make the wake look biggere?. I think a better comparison can be found at southernsurfest.com .
They compare 8 boats by Malibu,Master Craft,Nautique,Axis,Supra,Moomba,Centurion,Tige and MB . The results are based on the opinions of the riders both Pro and amateur during the competition. They were not pushing any brand or trying to sell any boats. I think it would be interesting to see the same test using a G with NSS, Malibu w/Surfgate and the MC w/Gen 2 .
Old     (MCObray)      Join Date: Mar 2013       10-05-2014, 12:11 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 83Starsnstripes View Post
These guys think the A22 is 20', might want to check your numbers...
Old     (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       10-05-2014, 4:06 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Froggy View Post
Possibly the most bias unbiased test I have ever seen. They chose MC and BU because of market share not because they have the best systems. That's like saying Ford and GM make the best cars because they sell the most. The surfers looked like they weighed 60 lb and were 4' tall was that to make the wake look biggere?. I think a better comparison can be found at southernsurfest.com .
They compare 8 boats by Malibu,Master Craft,Nautique,Axis,Supra,Moomba,Centurion,Tige and MB . The results are based on the opinions of the riders both Pro and amateur during the competition. They were not pushing any brand or trying to sell any boats. I think it would be interesting to see the same test using a G with NSS, Malibu w/Surfgate and the MC w/Gen 2 .
every boat you have listed was there other than MC, it was a great event and I encourage people to check it out, as for non bias reviews…..LOL
Old     (Froggy)      Join Date: Nov 2013       10-05-2014, 8:49 PM Reply   
You are right my mistake MC was not there. I talked to the owner of the local MC dealer he didn't want to put hours on his boats so he didn't show up. Too bad it would have been a great place to showcase the new gen2 system.

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