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Old     (badhabit)      Join Date: Mar 2009       10-01-2011, 8:12 PM Reply   
Disclaimer to the sensitive.....I'm in no way bashing MB boats...just observations...I'm not an engineer or a subject matter expert in regards to fiberglass/gelcoat.


Was checking out a variety of new boats with a buddy today. I was shocked when I was able push in the side of the MB hull much more than expected. To be honest....I've never seen a hull with so much flex. First thing that came to mind is would it spider crack down the road. Also, wonder how bad the damage would be if the boat slammed against the dock. Who knows...maybe it will fine but made me think a little.
Old     (smitty1258)      Join Date: Jun 2009       10-01-2011, 8:47 PM Reply   
what were you pushing with a forklift?

seems like some obvious trolling to me......
Old     (badhabit)      Join Date: Mar 2009       10-01-2011, 10:40 PM Reply   
Not a troll. Was just pushing with my hand. Go try it for yourself. Larsons in Rancho Cordova has 2 of them on the show room floor....pick one. The boats are sweet....just makes you wonder if MB is cutting back just a little to much to keep costs down. But then again, it may be just fine.
Old     (boarditup)      Join Date: Jan 2004       10-02-2011, 6:30 AM Reply   
It is easy to get strength with mass. Just keep piling it on. You can see the brute force approach with bridges and old stone buildings. Then, you see great engineering where mass and weight is kept to a minimum and the result is a very strong, lightweight Porsche that out-performs most everything else. You also have really cheap stuff were the build quality and engineering are substandard and it simply does not last or can take the punishment it needs to (cheap ratchets and sockets at the surplus store). I don't know anything about MB, but I would not discount a design or a build from an established, reputable company without some hard data to base it upon.
Old     (smitty1258)      Join Date: Jun 2009       10-02-2011, 8:33 AM Reply   
http://www.mbsports.net/accessory_vi...y=factory_tour

This should give you a better idea of build quality. Ive tested a few 2012 MB's and while I cant relate to what you've experienced I can say that I have taken the boat through its paces in super chop, double ups, etc and it remained solid and smooth. Furthermore I have not seen anyone have the same issue you have brought up.
Old     (k59)      Join Date: Sep 2011       10-02-2011, 9:09 AM Reply   
Maybe it has dent resistant panels... Like a Saturn [car].
Old     (Preston)      Join Date: Jul 2010       10-02-2011, 9:32 AM Reply   
I noticed that the Malibu's and Axis boats have a bit more flex on the sides of the hull compared to other manufacturers, but you don't hear of any problems from their owners either.
Old     (you_da_man)      Join Date: Sep 2009       10-02-2011, 10:05 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preston View Post
I noticed that the Malibu's and Axis boats have a bit more flex on the sides of the hull compared to other manufacturers, but you don't hear of any problems from their owners either.
The side of my 2011 Axis A22 appears to have more flex than my 08' Moomba XLV but yet the Axis has a far superior ride in chop and is solid as well through chop and double up type rollers whereas my previous rattled and slapped.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-02-2011, 2:46 PM Reply   
While I am an engineer and yet I haven't been thumb testing my hull much, I can tell you that my MB feels rock solid and handles chop and huge chop much better than my previous 2000 BU VLX. I can also let you know that I accidentally tested my MB rub-rail when my boat tagged a cement dock due to a "new boat" driving error. I went back expecting to find a nightmare but I found ZERO damage. So, I would say my MB is built as good as any if not better.
Old     (slowwwflowww)      Join Date: Mar 2011       10-02-2011, 3:43 PM Reply   
Its the same with every boat on the planet although in varying degrees,thicker where they need to be and not so thick where they don't need to be.
Old     (snork)      Join Date: Jun 2007       10-03-2011, 7:45 AM Reply   
Malibu had referred to that as their Flex Hull
Old     (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-03-2011, 8:02 AM Reply   
I have had (8) MB's in the last (6) years. Not one had a spider crack or did I feel the flex you speak of. We put a fair amount of hours on them every year with no issues. Like GD, we drove double ups, chop, yacht wakes and misc stuff with no issues. I have spent a fair amount of time in the factory and the last thing MB ever would do is skimp. When everyone else is going to plastic parts, they went to billet. There is a ton of places they could save money and choose not so I doubt they would start by skimping on the hull.
Old     (badhabit)      Join Date: Mar 2009       10-12-2011, 6:49 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by buffalow View Post
I have had (8) MB's in the last (6) years. Not one had a spider crack or did I feel the flex you speak of. We put a fair amount of hours on them every year with no issues. Like GD, we drove double ups, chop, yacht wakes and misc stuff with no issues. I have spent a fair amount of time in the factory and the last thing MB ever would do is skimp. When everyone else is going to plastic parts, they went to billet. There is a ton of places they could save money and choose not so I doubt they would start by skimping on the hull.
Like not installing a water intake shut off valve.

You mentioned you spent some time in the factory.....what for? Do you work for MB? (not being sarcastic....it's a real question)
Old     (badhabit)      Join Date: Mar 2009       10-03-2011, 8:00 PM Reply   
I've just never seen that type of flex before. None of my Nautiques or Mastercrafts flexed like the MB. I'm glad to hear the flex doesn't seem to be a problem. I'll be on the market for a new boat in a couple of years and MB seems to be on the top of the list along with Sanger. I really love the ballast system and the layout. I usually keep my boats for many years so long term durability is very important.....along with price, thus why Nautique & Mastercraft are now out of the question.
Old     (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       10-04-2011, 6:31 AM Reply   
MB hulls have a lifetime warranty and a 2 year, yes two year, gelcoat warranty. Stop worrying and go buy one.
Old     (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: SLC, UT 5600'       10-04-2011, 7:55 AM Reply   
I was chasing this MB F21 but couldn't catch it to thumb test it...

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Old     (dhill)      Join Date: Aug 2010       10-04-2011, 8:12 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by downfortheride View Post
I was chasing this MB F21 but couldn't catch it to thumb test it...
greaet wake. can't resist asking, is that stock or with add'l ballast. if stock, how many people in the boat)?
Old     (smitty1258)      Join Date: Jun 2009       10-04-2011, 8:15 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhill View Post
greaet wake. can't resist asking, is that stock or with add'l ballast. if stock, how many people in the boat)?
^ ditto

wave looks redonkulus
Old     (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: SLC, UT 5600'       10-04-2011, 8:20 AM Reply   
We had 4 adults and 2 small kids in the boat with an extra 450 in the nose. BOOM! This MB is dialed for sure!!!
Old     (dhill)      Join Date: Aug 2010       10-04-2011, 9:11 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by downfortheride View Post
We had 4 adults and 2 small kids in the boat with an extra 450 in the nose. BOOM! This MB is dialed for sure!!!
YES IT IS!! congrats. that wake looks perfect. i''d make those same persons go with me everytime and sit in the exact same spots
Old     (smitty1258)      Join Date: Jun 2009       10-12-2011, 5:59 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by downfortheride View Post
We had 4 adults and 2 small kids in the boat with an extra 450 in the nose. BOOM! This MB is dialed for sure!!!
We went out on a 2012 MB 21 Tomcat last night for a demo, brought my 550 bag, and 4 180-200lb guys. We could not replicate this wake. How fast were you going? We had the bag laying as far up on the floor and it came into the walkway a bit, where was your bag?
I was really bummed about it, because Ive been talking the MB wake up to my buddy who is in the market for a new boat, and the wave just disappointed. We should have just taken the 23ftr out, because that wake is $. I was really hoping to recreate this wave as well to see how it compared to the 23ft WB.
Old     (bzubke1)      Join Date: Feb 2010       10-12-2011, 7:05 AM Reply   
Were you in deep enough water to get the full potential of the wake? The one time I rode the f21 with just stock ballast it was very respectable but where we rode water depth varied between 5 and 10 feet. In the deeper parts the wake was real nice and firm but in the shallower water it was really mellow and just crappy.
Old     (smitty1258)      Join Date: Jun 2009       10-12-2011, 11:52 AM Reply   
@ Brandon- yup, we were in 15+ft of water.

@Ian- Sorry only meant wake.

@Josh- So you have your bag laying on the floor going with the length of the boat or have it going width wise and laying across the front seat? I have no doubt the 21TC makes that wake I just wish I could have had it dialed in for my buddy. Im already in the market for a 23WB, and he didnt want a 23ft boat so with the same hull/build quality as the 23WB I thought, and still think the 21TC would be better for him than another Axis/Vride and even the MTZ(x) whatever that new Malibu is called we also demoed yesterday. I really liked the 23WB wake better than the 21TC wake when I was comparing the 2 wake to wake in the same day, but when I saw your post of that photo I knew that setup would sway him from Malibu and maybe sway me from a 23WB to a 21TC. But we both left pretty unsatisfied with the wake, not taking anything away from the rest of the boat which is great. So it just comes down to getting the 21TC dialed in for him again someday. But Im sure once he rides my 23WB when I get it he wont care about the extra 2ft.

@Don Hankey
We rode both the new Malibu mt something yesterday and a 21TC and I cant disagree with you more about cutting through chop/rollers. The MB drives through them with little effect to the driver/passengers like an Escalade, and the Malibu more like the Explorer, but still the Malibu was better than many boats Ive been in.
And I thought the fit and finish was equal in both boats. The MB is less flashy but everything fits like it should and the finish was excellent for a no "frills" boat, the Malibu we were in was "pimped" out more and fit and finish was also excellent, just 2 different styles of fit and finish. To me I like the more simple clean look, and some like the Malibu bling look. MB's throttle is also fly by wire FYI, and the 3 of us that drove both the Malibu and the MB all felt that MB handled and turned both loaded and unloaded with ballast better than the Malibu. I can also comment on the new Malibu pumps, they were pretty fast, not super fast, I would say in the 3-5 minute range the entire boat was full, much faster than previous Malibu that I have been in.
I cant comment on towing as I have towed neither, but with that being said your the first person Ive seen mention that the MB felt that much heavier.
Old     (illini88)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-12-2011, 8:42 PM Reply   
Was the ballast full? How about the fuel level? In my experience with the MB wakes (2008 and newer), I've not seen one that disappoints. With the 21 footers, I never found the need for more weight, but some weight in the nose did mellow it out a bit. If you ge the chance to take one out again, I'd put your crew in the bow and leave the sack at home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty1258 View Post
We went out on a 2012 MB 21 Tomcat last night for a demo, brought my 550 bag, and 4 180-200lb guys. We could not replicate this wake. How fast were you going? We had the bag laying as far up on the floor and it came into the walkway a bit, where was your bag?
I was really bummed about it, because Ive been talking the MB wake up to my buddy who is in the market for a new boat, and the wave just disappointed. We should have just taken the 23ftr out, because that wake is $. I was really hoping to recreate this wave as well to see how it compared to the 23ft WB.
Old     (smitty1258)      Join Date: Jun 2009       10-13-2011, 6:48 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by illini88 View Post
Was the ballast full? How about the fuel level? In my experience with the MB wakes (2008 and newer), I've not seen one that disappoints. With the 21 footers, I never found the need for more weight, but some weight in the nose did mellow it out a bit. If you ge the chance to take one out again, I'd put your crew in the bow and leave the sack at home.
Stock ballast was 100% full. Id guess the fuel was pretty low, it was a dealers boat. And we had the 550 sac, prolly filled to 475 in the front bow/walkway area. I guess I should also say the wake wasnt bad, but it wasnt a 23WB, and it wasnt anywhere near to the photo posted earlier. We cut ourselves short on time during this demo as well, so I feel if we had a bit more time we could have figured it out. Im trying to convert both these guys from axis's ones a 2011A20 and ones a 2011A22, both run 3000+ and both love there wakes. I drive there boats all the time as we all ride together and thats how I can compare the handling of the MB vs the Axis/Malibu. Both the Axis and Malibu handle great, but we all felt the MB handled better, and even more so when loaded down. My buddy with the A22 used to have a Supra23v and it was like you needed 2 guys to turn the freaking wheel when loaded down, the Axis is much easier, and the MB is even easier yet.
Old     (FunkyBunch)      Join Date: Jun 2011       10-13-2011, 7:38 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty1258 View Post
My buddy with the A22 used to have a Supra23v and it was like you needed 2 guys to turn the freaking wheel when loaded down, the Axis is much easier, and the MB is even easier yet.
smitty Just to clarify there is not a Supra 23v it would be a 22v or 24v the 23 footer is from Moomba in the Skiers Choice line. Either way though Supra's are pigs when loaded they also have one other problem IMO they like bow weight to the point you can easily dunk the bow.

Keep up the reviews coming on the MB's I am very interested in what people are finding about the wakes. We have a wakeboard camp here locally using them now just one more reason to go get some leasons.
Old     (slipknot)      Join Date: Aug 2001       10-04-2011, 8:46 AM Reply   
I love all the people who question MB (hull flex does that really matter?), If you have not ridden the wake, you must try it. The flex you are referring to in the hull? Wow?!?! Boats have warranties for a reason. Yes you are correct it is not a 1991 Nautique Excel, the hull flex is not the same either. Come out and ride my wake, I can almost guarantee you a knee injury if you wanted one

There is no boat out there which is the same size with a wake that can even come close to an MB. That's right I said it. Burn me at the stake. Who wants to buy one? I know of a few for sale for a big discount from new. We're all getting 2012s, they are that good.

Boat show season is almost here kids time to buy used and save yourselves some money
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       10-04-2011, 8:47 AM Reply   
23' with wake sized for mere mortals (ballast half full and a four adult crew):

Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-04-2011, 8:54 AM Reply   
I can understand people questioning MB.

I sit in my 2012 21WB shaking my head thinking how did I get such a nice boat for such a low price. Quality, functionalty, custom style and value all in one.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       10-04-2011, 9:11 AM Reply   
Another for scale (23' with half full ballast):

Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-04-2011, 9:56 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
Another for scale (23' with half full ballast):

That's great but aren't you like 5'5"?
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       10-04-2011, 9:58 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05mobiuslsv View Post
That's great but aren't you like 5'5"?
5'9", 6' with the afro.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-04-2011, 9:21 AM Reply   
Josh, that wake looks photoshopped! Thats a beautiful wake!
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-04-2011, 10:42 AM Reply   
Lol
Old     (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: SLC, UT 5600'       10-04-2011, 11:21 AM Reply   
GD ~ MB is at the top of the game for sure! My bro's F21 is solid and the wake is consistent day to day, lake to lake. Photoshopped... No way! I have been a fan of MB since another bro of mine picked up a 2007 B52 23' and the wake is AWESOME. All we do is stock on both boats and 400 - 500 in the bow and its perfect. Fit, finish and price they can't be beat... Can't wait for the boat show to check out the new MB's!
Old     (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: SLC, UT 5600'       10-04-2011, 11:29 AM Reply   
Different day... 2 adults, 450 nose, 300 on the floor and stock full. 25 MPH

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Old     (slowwwflowww)      Join Date: Mar 2011       10-04-2011, 2:23 PM Reply   
To me the wake says it all,with top o the line fit and finish to boot?BUY BABY BUY!!!
Old     (wakerpunk)      Join Date: Jan 2006       10-04-2011, 2:40 PM Reply   
I love how DFTR always posts a picture of a tantrum. every single time....
Old     (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: SLC, UT 5600'       10-04-2011, 3:07 PM Reply   
Cause that 's the only pics that I look cool and shows the wake at the same time. See this isn't as cool, LOL.
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Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-04-2011, 6:23 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowwwflowww View Post
To me the wake says it all,with top o the line fit and finish to boot?BUY BABY BUY!!!
They aren't quite there yet, when they are I'm in. Waiting on a couple more changes.
Old     (smitty1258)      Join Date: Jun 2009       10-04-2011, 6:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05mobiuslsv View Post
They aren't quite there yet, when they are I'm in. Waiting on a couple more changes.
what things are you waiting on?
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       10-04-2011, 6:28 PM Reply   
right now MB is absolutely killing it, i think they have bright things coming if they can keep prices down without loosing quality

granted ive never seen one... but these pics make them look damn fine and that wake looks great!
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-04-2011, 6:54 PM Reply   
Josh, your wake pic is one of the finest wake pics I have ever seen. That wake is awesome looking.

I have 390 in 6 lead bars and 200 in 2 leadwake bags so I should be able to reproduce that in my 2012 21WB.
Attached Images
 
Old     (illini88)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-04-2011, 7:01 PM Reply   
I'm not a mb owner, but I'm a big fan. The pics don't lie; the wakes are huge and clean. I have never ridden behind a boat that has a wake as clean as MB's i've ridden the last few years. I'm not saying a picture perfect wake is necessarily better for boarding, but there is just a different look to the MB wakes.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-04-2011, 7:35 PM Reply   
BTW, I only got my MB recently so this is why I have not tuned the wake yet. Now that the boat is broken in and minor kinks are worked out, it's time to tune the wake.
Old     (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: SLC, UT 5600'       10-04-2011, 8:09 PM Reply   
GD ~ Dustin Nell just posted up top and this is his boat. The pic don't lie and his is dialed in!!! We fill the sock plump full, 450 in the nose and depending on how many people if we fill the 300 lbs on the floor. 24 - 25 mph with the plate all the way up and the wake will send you to the moon. Give it a go and let us know what you think! You have one good looking TWB by the way... Congrats.
Here's another pic I got the same day... This shows you how the wake can really BOOT ya...
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Old     (jbird)      Join Date: Jun 2011       10-05-2011, 8:12 AM Reply   
I was in Larson's last night, getting winterizing supplies...Thought I'd try the "thumb to hull flex test"! Did'nt work for me? No different than any other boat? I tell you what though...These just might be my next boat!
Old     (jbird)      Join Date: Jun 2011       10-05-2011, 8:13 AM Reply   
Oh ya, a Green Axis had just showed up! Still on the trailer...Still in wraps! Gotta check this one out too!
Old     (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-05-2011, 9:13 AM Reply   
The funny thing is that "new" seat is very close to the seat that I have in my 2000 MB. Only difference is the new one has a bit more of a peak on top and the flip up.
Old     (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: SLC, UT 5600'       10-05-2011, 12:45 PM Reply   
7000 Holy hell... We put 3200 in my bro's and it wouldn't get on plane with the 409 engine. I'm sure it don't have the low end prop and high altitude but 7000 WOW! Let's see a decent pic of that wake...
Old     (steezyshots)      Join Date: Feb 2008       10-05-2011, 1:45 PM Reply   
No where near the weight he throws in it at home he didn't have all his lead because this was on his way back home from picking up his new boat so we decided to meet up with Schwenne at Shasta. I love the look of the MB's the look like p-51 mustangs to me!
Attached Images
 
Old     (steezyshots)      Join Date: Feb 2008       10-05-2011, 1:47 PM Reply   
Not bad for a lake that's only 8 feet deep!
Attached Images
 
Old     (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       10-05-2011, 7:26 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by steezyshots View Post
Not bad for a lake that's only 8 feet deep!
Isn't that a double up? I would expect atleast that kind of air from any decent wake boat. In the other pics the wake looks sick!
Old     (steezyshots)      Join Date: Feb 2008       10-05-2011, 1:43 PM Reply   
Yes when I ride/shoot with Mikey, he loads up his 21 with 6-7k and it is the gnarliest wake ever! I love that boat! Propped with the big engine it get's on plane pretty quick and that wake is mackin! I'll throw up some pics
Old     (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: SLC, UT 5600'       10-05-2011, 5:20 PM Reply   
Right on Riley... Can't wait to see this wake! Thanks for posting up.
Old     (dnell)      Join Date: Oct 2011       10-05-2011, 7:09 PM Reply   
D.F.T.R josh and myself are going to post some groups of shots of the wake from my F21 tomcat. with any luck it will happen this weekend. We will do stock photos, ballast and give all the info as far as weight, speed, and any other piece of info we can provide to help those of you get the most from your MB boats. Feel free to post any and all comments as we are trying to help everyone get booted to the moon. If you love your sport live it! and always be D.F.T.R!
Old     (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       10-06-2011, 2:29 AM Reply   
Just saw these pics on Facebook. New carpet options on the MB's.



Old     (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       10-06-2011, 8:02 AM Reply   
MB's keep looking better by the day. That carpet looks nice. Something different then just a single color but not too crazy. Is the carpet fixed in there or is it some sort of removable carpet section?
Old     (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: SLC, UT 5600'       10-06-2011, 8:20 AM Reply   
If I heard right that carpet kit is held in by magnets...
Old     (dnell)      Join Date: Oct 2011       10-06-2011, 9:06 AM Reply   
So here is a thought for you. The price of a F21 tomcat in Utah as of February 2011 was around $56k loaded up quite nice. In October 1st 2011 the price for the new 2012 is around $66k. Amazing boats, yes. But at what point does MB say " our price's are getting out of controll, can the average family buy our boat?" is the new MB's with all the changes worth the increasing price? In february if you wanted a NEW wake boat and you did not want to completely break the bank you had 2 options. A MB or the Axis. At $66k I would be out, they hit $70k+ there are hundreds of nice low hr wake boats out there. So my thought is MB should keep there prices in check for the average family. Just sayin'
Old     (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       10-06-2011, 10:44 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnell View Post
So here is a thought for you. The price of a F21 tomcat in Utah as of February 2011 was around $56k loaded up quite nice. In October 1st 2011 the price for the new 2012 is around $66k. Amazing boats, yes. But at what point does MB say " our price's are getting out of controll, can the average family buy our boat?" is the new MB's with all the changes worth the increasing price? In february if you wanted a NEW wake boat and you did not want to completely break the bank you had 2 options. A MB or the Axis. At $66k I would be out, they hit $70k+ there are hundreds of nice low hr wake boats out there. So my thought is MB should keep there prices in check for the average family. Just sayin'
My local dealer advertises the 2012 Tomcat for $55K including heater (normally an factory option). The only add on to that price is freight and prep. My guess is that you could get them to come down another $2K. Then all you'd have to add is your own tower speakers/amp and you are good to go.

Many things might be happening with that dealer in Utah:
  • The are ordering their boats with tons of pricey options: WetSounds tower ($3K), Trim Tab ($1.5K), Metal Flake ($800), Heater ($700), Underwater LED's ($500), Logo carpet, etc.
  • They have 2011's on the lot so they are pricing the 2012's artificially high.
  • They are price gouging... trying to take advantage of all the MB buzz, figuring they can get a bigger profit.
  • Utah in general is a very expensive inboard market. I don't know why. But I travel there often and have been to MB, MC, and Bu dealers and noticed they all expect crazy high prices. They only list MSRP (usually north of $100K), whereas the inboard dealers in Portland list "boat show" pricing year around. You don't have to ask. It's is printed next to the boats on the showroom. Then you negotiate from there. I just think Utah is an expensive inboard market.

Bottom line... I don't think MB's invoice price to the dealers has gone up too much with these changes. Maybe a few G's, but I'm almost positive it's not $10 G's.

Frankly, I don't blame MB for small increases in invoice cost. The driver is not all these new features. It's things like resin, freight, etc. All is more expensive for them today than it was last year. I'm sure every boat company is in the same boat.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       10-06-2011, 4:47 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnell View Post
So here is a thought for you. The price of a F21 tomcat in Utah as of February 2011 was around $56k loaded up quite nice. In October 1st 2011 the price for the new 2012 is around $66k. Amazing boats, yes. But at what point does MB say " our price's are getting out of controll, can the average family buy our boat?" is the new MB's with all the changes worth the increasing price? In february if you wanted a NEW wake boat and you did not want to completely break the bank you had 2 options. A MB or the Axis. At $66k I would be out, they hit $70k+ there are hundreds of nice low hr wake boats out there. So my thought is MB should keep there prices in check for the average family. Just sayin'
yea every boat company should, but its a niche market

as long as mastercraft, malibu, and nautique keep pumping out 100k or more boats on the reg the better skiiers choice, mb, tige and epic will do well becuase theyre most expensive boats are just reaching into the middle range of the "big 3" its amazing, but then again, at 100k for a 22 footer then 65 for an z3, team 23, epic 23v looks like a bargain considering most of these boats are made of the same stuff.
Old     (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-06-2011, 8:51 AM Reply   
yep, drop in carpet with magnets instead of snaps. magnets are under the fiberglass so you can't see them.
Old     (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       10-06-2011, 9:12 AM Reply   
Dustin, how much of that is that the new MB's are gaining traction and they can make a larger Margin?
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-06-2011, 9:34 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
Dustin, how much of that is that the new MB's are gaining traction and they can make a larger Margin?
They are gaining traction because all of the changes they are making IMO, I'd have to guess all those changes do add cost. They are quite nice changes...
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       10-06-2011, 9:22 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05mobiuslsv View Post
I gotta say my comments were about the 23 twb only never been in the 21. The 23 is the only boat I'd even consider from MB. It weird how two guys views can be 180, I've spent ALOT of time in VTX's and never noticed what you describe. I do know it's not the case on my 23.
You must love the malibu factory seat height then? Judging from all of the "how to raise your seat height" threads on TMC there are others who think it's too low (IXFE's experience seems to be an outlier). One of my favorite things about the MB vs our vride is the higher seating position. At 5'9" I can drive with the bolster down and be looking through the windshield and also see where I'm going which wasn't possible in the 'bu.

As for the dash height I don't think it's actually that much lower. If memory serves the bottom of my steering rack on the vride was 16" from the floor. On the MB it's 15" (though the bottom of the dash itself is 14").

Seems like to make the dash higher you have to bring the windshield up, or the lower. Higher windshield = higher freeboard = higher folded tower. Lower floor cuts in to ballast.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-06-2011, 9:29 AM Reply   
Yeah I really do like the seat height on my current boat, for me it's perfect maybe not so much for the next guy. The dash on my current boat is 20" to the steering rack, 18" to bottom vinyl on the dash. IXFE is the first person I've ever seen say the seats on a malibu are "too high", like you say they are saying it's to low compared to windshield.

Steering rack as in underneath the dash, more like 24+" to the center of steering wheel.

Last edited by 05mobiuslsv; 10-06-2011 at 9:36 AM.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       10-06-2011, 9:31 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnell View Post
So here is a thought for you. The price of a F21 tomcat in Utah as of February 2011 was around $56k loaded up quite nice. In October 1st 2011 the price for the new 2012 is around $66k. Amazing boats, yes. But at what point does MB say " our price's are getting out of controll, can the average family buy our boat?" is the new MB's with all the changes worth the increasing price? In february if you wanted a NEW wake boat and you did not want to completely break the bank you had 2 options. A MB or the Axis. At $66k I would be out, they hit $70k+ there are hundreds of nice low hr wake boats out there. So my thought is MB should keep there prices in check for the average family. Just sayin'
Totally agree. I love my MB but a lot of that is because of the value. At $10k more there are lots of other options.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-06-2011, 9:38 AM Reply   
You should be able to pick up a new well appointed 2012 MB 21WB or 21TC for a price in the mid $50Ks.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-06-2011, 10:12 AM Reply   
Regarding the carpets with the model names... Am I the only one who thinks "tomcat" is a much better name than "B52"?
Old     (bruizza)      Join Date: May 2009       10-06-2011, 12:32 PM Reply   
There are two pretty loaded up F21s at my local dealer and both of them are priced at $59,999. They don't have tower speakers or a heater but they do have the trim plate and the flake gel coat. They have a 23 TWB B52 for $69,999 with the flake gel coat, trim plate and upgraded engine. For me it would be a no brainer to spend the extra 10k and get the bigger boat and the upgraded engine. I spent about 30-40 minutes crawling around in the 23 and was very impressed.
Old     (gnarslayer)      Join Date: Sep 2008       10-06-2011, 12:51 PM Reply   
A few years back i convinced one of my exs dads to purchase a 23 foot B 52, and that boat was super solid! it could tank through triple up rollers no problem! also the wake was very large just stock and got on plane with ease, i love boats with a ton of factory ballast!

unfortunately the girls family were quite the party people and ended up not taking care of it. the boat ended up trashed then sold :'(

i miss that boat
Old     (Kingsriver)      Join Date: Aug 2011       10-06-2011, 1:28 PM Reply   
I have been reading this thread for the last few days and since I am trying to pick between 23 MB WB and 23 Malibu this has been very informative. IS the Ski wake on the MB that Bad. I like to Ski some and Wakboard and I want to learn to surf. My kids Board and I am sure they will learn to surf as soon as I buy a new boat. I am 47 and Kids are 11 and 14 and my wife just likes to ride in the boat and not get beat up. Here is my questions?
1. How do both boats handle in chop I have been told Malibu does not handle rough water as well as M. We boat at Shaver Lake and Pine Flat in Central California.
2. All Around Boat? IS the Malibu worth the extra 15+k?
3. Ski Wake and Board and Surf Wake. I dont want to buy more bags I want to make what is in the boat work for me. Is the Malibu system better or worse thant he MB simple fill sytem?
4. The fit and Finish is great on Malibu and MB is the best I have seen next to Malibu. How do they look in 5 years after use?
5. Does MB weigh so much more than the Malibu and is the fuel milage as poor as the Malibui Dealers claim?


Just a few questions for the board. If anyone owns a MB or Malibu on this board inCentral California would love to talk to you. Tal 559-285-2638
Old     (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       10-06-2011, 8:11 PM Reply   
My thoughts on your questions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingsriver View Post
I have been reading this thread for the last few days and since I am trying to pick between 23 MB WB and 23 Malibu this has been very informative. IS the Ski wake on the MB that Bad. It's no picnic. But okay for recreational skiing at 30+ mph (e.g. no hard cutting across the wake). But the Malibu will be better due to a flatter hull (see pic below). I like to Ski some and Wakboard and I want to learn to surf. My kids Board and I am sure they will learn to surf as soon as I buy a new boat. I am 47 and Kids are 11 and 14 and my wife just likes to ride in the boat and not get beat up. Here is my questions?
1. How do both boats handle in chop I have been told Malibu does not handle rough water as well as MB. We boat at Shaver Lake and Pine Flat in Central California. The MB will be better in chop. Again, see the pic below. Deeper V equals better ride in rough water, but worse ski wake. It's simple physics.
2. All Around Boat? Both are great "all around" boats. Is the Malibu worth the extra 15+k? Only you can answer that question. Depends on what you value in life. For me the answer is no. But I totally understand the appeal of the Bu's, especially the 23 LSV. It's a sweet boat.
3. Ski Wake and Board and Surf Wake. I dont want to buy more bags I want to make what is in the boat work for me. Is the Malibu system better or worse thant he MB simple fill sytem? MB holds 2x as much water and fills 5x faster. That plus the deep V hull makes a very surfable stock wave. The quick fill makes switching from goofy to regular very quick. With that said, for a killer surf wave you need extra weight in any boat. But if you don't want to be filling bags, the MB is your best bet. The one place the Bu has an advantage is that it has a tank in the bow (albeit a small one). MB tanks extend from the transom to the windshield, but nothing in the bow.
4. The fit and Finish is great on Malibu and MB is the best I have seen next to Malibu. How do they look in 5 years after use? Not sure, I only had my first MB for two years, and it still looked brand new.
5. Does MB weigh so much more than the Malibu and is the fuel milage as poor as the Malibui Dealers claim? The MB 23 TWB weight 4,100 lbs. The Malibu 23 LSV weighs 3,900 lbs. I have the 5.7L EX343 in my MB. I find it very efficient. I'm always amazed how far a tank of gas goes, but I have nothing to compare it too. I would expect the 5.7L Monsoon350 to be similar. Bottom line, don't buy a boat if you are at all worried about buying lots of gas.

Malibu 23 LSV - vs. - MB 23 TWB

Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       10-06-2011, 2:26 PM Reply   
You could get a LSV 23' with a diamond hull and that WILL ski better than an MB.

The surf wave on the Malibu can be great, but it takes weight. It's not very good without extra weight. The MB is very surfable with factory ballast only (four adults, no sacks):



Sortof an apples and oranges comparo on the intangibles. Is a Lexus worth more than a Toyota? There is a LOT more content to the Malibus than MB. And that content costs (maliview, power wedge, etc). Gotta decide if it's worth it to you.

The MB 23' is good in chop. AFAIK, so is the 'bu. Good as far as inboards go. Neither is a Cobalt.
Old     (TheSqueakyWheel)      Join Date: Oct 2010       10-06-2011, 3:17 PM Reply   
I've demo'd the 23 MB and the 23 LSV Malibu both in the past few weeks.

The MB cuts through choppy waters significantly better than the Malibu

The MB surf wave, at least how we had it weighted, was significantly better than the Malibu. On both we added 750 of external ballast to the rear locker and 400 on the surfside seat in addition to filling the rear locker, mid & front. On the MB, we added the same weight in addition to the stock ballast. the MB surf wave was significantly better than the malibu in this configuration. The Malibu ski wake was better to our eyes, although we didn't have a chance to ski either boat. The 23 MB surf wave looks pretty scary. The wakeboard wave on both looked good, but we didn't have a chance to board it so I can't really say.

Malibu fit & finish is superior. Malibu captains chair and helm area are more ergonomically pleasing to me. Is this worth a 10-15k price gap? That's too personal for me to decide for you.

Personally, I don't like digital gauges, so personal preference edge to the MB.
Old     (showmedonttellme)      Join Date: Mar 2008       10-06-2011, 3:29 PM Reply   
Josh, forget the wake, how did you even get up in that horribly choppy water??

That is one question I have for the MB Owners. I have an old X-Star hull (03' X-2, X-1, etc). Great wake obviously, especially with 3k in it. But I must say when the water gets choppy (not that I ever ride then cuz I'm spoiled), the wake loses 4-6" right away. Do the MBs, and bigger boats in general experience the same "chop-down" in wake-size? Just wondering?
Old     (jbird)      Join Date: Jun 2011       10-06-2011, 3:43 PM Reply   
Dealer did tell me the 2012 prices have increased, but if purchased now, one could get like boat show pricing...Pretty close to 2011 pricing! He was thinking mid 50's for the 21 footers, around 7-8k more for 23 footers!
Old     (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-06-2011, 6:00 PM Reply   
Stock surf wake - 3 dudes in boat - 3/4 tank of gas - 2012 - 23' TWB.

Oh - All in less than 60 seconds - BOOM!
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Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-06-2011, 6:22 PM Reply   
You should put some protection on the edge of that swim platform so it doesn't get dinged up while you're surfing on top of it....

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