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Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       11-23-2016, 1:43 PM Reply   
The way Learn Wake teaches to cut is by using the entire body as leverage. Their reasoning behind it is that you have alot more leverage standing tall, than you do if you kink at the waist. (This is besides the point of whether your doing a tal or seated type edge) Physics wise it makes 100% sense and when you go out to the flats and try to cut, standing tall gets you much lower than kinking at the waist. So the idea is that on an ideal cut, if your ass touches the water your shoulders should as well.

However, when you look at good riders and pro's, its pretty apparent that most of them keep their upper body pretty upright and only cut with the lower body (kinking at their waist).

I guess Raley tricks are a perfect for this example since they require the deepest cuts. So here is an example of both....

1. If you look at the king of raleys, Shaun Murray, he stays mostly unkinked while doing a hard hard cuts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0mCITtl4Ws

It's not as clear on the cut in, but you can definitely see it on his aggressive cut out. His upper back is basically as close to the water as his ass.

EDIT: Here's actually a better video of a close up of Shaun : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXa6lmilQrI

2. Now look at Mark at 10 seconds in (sorry for putting you on the spot!):



still ends up with an extremely aggressive cut and HUGE air, but it's apparent his upper body is pretty upright.

So whats the deal? I can only assume that the 2nd version is done by pro's because they have so much strength that the 'less efficient' way doesn't result in any tangible disadvantage. Which method would you guys recommend for people learning raleys and how to cut extremely hard?

Last edited by timelinex; 11-23-2016 at 1:45 PM.
Old     (razorjaw)      Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Australia       11-23-2016, 2:31 PM Reply   
As someone who has a bag of raley tricks at cable and has always struggled with raleys behind the boat, thank you so much for that Shaun Murray link! I will definitely try them again when I go out next.

As to your question (others will probably have a better answer) Shaun is teaching great technique to beginners who need to really focus on the basics. Mark is an advanced rider whose cut suit his strengths. He's still developing an extraordinary amount of leverage and speed. He may find it easier to get into the S bend position from this cut? Ideas?
Old     (cheesydog)      Join Date: Mar 2009       11-23-2016, 6:40 PM Reply   
Pretty flattering to have any comparison whatsoever to Murray! I think it's a question of what works better for you personally. At both cable and boat there are always riders who are more upright or more flat. I developed a more upright position from cable, and its never held me back from going big. I will say though the guys who go biggest with their air tricks like Diego or Dominik lay practically flat on the water for their cut. I think I could probably go bigger if cut like that into the wake, but it's more a question of maintaining control and being able to control the pop of the wake, especially for an sbend. I may try a few straight raleys though as an experiment.
Old     (razorjaw)      Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Australia       11-23-2016, 8:44 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesydog View Post
Pretty flattering to have any comparison whatsoever to Murray! I think it's a question of what works better for you personally. At both cable and boat there are always riders who are more upright or more flat. I developed a more upright position from cable, and its never held me back from going big. I will say though the guys who go biggest with their air tricks like Diego or Dominik lay practically flat on the water for their cut. I think I could probably go bigger if cut like that into the wake, but it's more a question of maintaining control and being able to control the pop of the wake, especially for an sbend. I may try a few straight raleys though as an experiment.
Don't be afraid to film them too!
Old     (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       11-24-2016, 7:12 AM Reply   
Expert riders use a variety of approaches and edges for different tricks. There is not magic bullet.

Like Will said, Murray is teaching a fundamental edge. My edges on a raley vs a back-5 are totally different.
Old     (tweeder)      Join Date: Aug 2015       11-24-2016, 8:41 AM Reply   
I saw the same thing on learn wake too and was wondering the same thing. I think its more about standing tall and having your hips in front of your shoulders when you release of the wake. Leverage for pop has nothing to do with body position while cutting but all about body position when hitting the wake.
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       11-25-2016, 3:31 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by razorjaw View Post
As someone who has a bag of raley tricks at cable and has always struggled with raleys behind the boat, thank you so much for that Shaun Murray link! I will definitely try them again when I go out next.

As to your question (others will probably have a better answer) Shaun is teaching great technique to beginners who need to really focus on the basics. Mark is an advanced rider whose cut suit his strengths. He's still developing an extraordinary amount of leverage and speed. He may find it easier to get into the S bend position from this cut? Ideas?
Glad to of helped with the video, and hope it helps your raley!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesydog View Post
Pretty flattering to have any comparison whatsoever to Murray! I think it's a question of what works better for you personally. At both cable and boat there are always riders who are more upright or more flat. I developed a more upright position from cable, and its never held me back from going big. I will say though the guys who go biggest with their air tricks like Diego or Dominik lay practically flat on the water for their cut. I think I could probably go bigger if cut like that into the wake, but it's more a question of maintaining control and being able to control the pop of the wake, especially for an sbend. I may try a few straight raleys though as an experiment.
Haha, I love your riding! Thanks for your insight and get back to us on your experiment. I’m genuinely interested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweeder View Post
I saw the same thing on learn wake too and was wondering the same thing. I think its more about standing tall and having your hips in front of your shoulders when you release of the wake. Leverage for pop has nothing to do with body position while cutting but all about body position when hitting the wake.
This discussion isn’t about the body position or standing tall at the wake. It’s literally about the edge in (or even edge out for that matter). They advise NOT kinking at the hips and physics wise it’s undoubtedly more efficient because of more leverage. But as other’s have mentioned, there are more variable to it like losing control.

I’ll share my experience with it thus far, which should be taken with a grain of salt since I’m a newb. I’ve been doing the ‘no kink’ method and I found that when I cut hard through the wake I would sometimes lose control. That’s actually how I got my last rib injury. I wanted to see how high and far I could get on a jump so I did a progressive cut as hard as I could and right after leaving the wake I felt like I lost control so I let go of the handle. I ended up landing on my back and injuring my rib. After a few weeks off, my rib was mostly better but still not 100%. My edge hasn’t felt as strong since then and I always just thought it was that I wasn’t back to 100% strength. Last time out I realized that I’ve unknowingly added a kink to my edging body position (probably to compensate for the injured area) and that’s most likely why my edge hasn’t felt as strong. HOWEVER, the major plus is that I’ve never felt more in control either. I don’t get the occasional “WTF moment” going off the wake that would lead me to falling off axis. I'm sure more experience would stop the WTF moments as well though. I don’t know what to make of it yet; So that’s why I made this post.

Last edited by timelinex; 11-25-2016 at 3:34 PM.

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