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Old     (alexair)      Join Date: Oct 2008       05-06-2017, 2:27 AM Reply   
Any prediction to 2020 year?
Attached Images
  
Old     (CRS_mi)      Join Date: Jul 2011       05-06-2017, 6:44 AM Reply   
my prediction is that I will never get to own a new boat
Old     (Ttime41)      Join Date: Nov 2011       05-06-2017, 7:07 AM Reply   
I could be wrong, but I think we're only a recession away from high end brands being in big trouble
Old     (racer808)      Join Date: Jan 2013       05-06-2017, 7:10 AM Reply   
What's scary is how they're flying off shells and a good chunk are people taking out seconds on their homes or doing thirty year notes.
Old     (hrwboarder)      Join Date: Feb 2010       05-06-2017, 9:04 AM Reply   
Personally, I think some companies (e.g Mastercraft) gave up on wakeboarding a few years back are now shooting for a different market. Maybe those individuals who were going to buy a larger cruiser like a Sea Ray but can get a little more activity out of a wakeboard boat.

Just my thoughts though which could of course be totally wrong!
Old     (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       05-06-2017, 4:26 PM Reply   
I think you're right. While watersports have always been more of a rich-man's sport than others, there was a time your average person could snag a nice wakeboat new and it wasn't earth shattering.

I live in a heavily blue collar area, and I remember vividly from the late 90's to early 00's tons of people had newer boats around here and most people in the area had blue collar type jobs. Now the only newer wakeboats are from folks with a 2nd lake house. The year round residents where I live can't swing new. To your point, the folks geared heavily towards watersports who were buying new(er) years ago actually used them for wake sports.... now 9 out of 10 nice new wakeboats that show up are used to cruise around or pull tubers.... nothing against it, just what I've seen.

I've made peace with knowing I won't ever swipe a check for a new boat, part becuase I just can't afford it and part because I would NEVER finance it for more than 5-6 years. But honestly love the trend with prices... because I think I could sell my boat right now for ~$10k more than I paid years later.
Old     (Bakes)      Join Date: Mar 2010       05-06-2017, 5:26 PM Reply   
I love the trend as well. Like I really want more boats on the lake. I'm gonna cry when I start having to go to Ticketmaster to get tickets to the lake like some places in California.
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       05-07-2017, 9:27 AM Reply   
You're getting a lot more boat now than you used to. Boats from the 90's didn't have half the systems or equipment the new boats have, not to mention the size and weight. 21' is now considered a small boat. Manufacturers are just responding to what the market has been demanding. It is crazy though. 'Muricans be consumin.
Old     (stevo8290)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-08-2017, 8:33 AM Reply   
I love the wakes coming off these boats but the prices are just unreal.
Old     (stevo8290)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-08-2017, 8:34 AM Reply   
And yes people are buying. My buddy sells in Austin and says they are on fire right now.
Old     (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       05-08-2017, 9:12 AM Reply   
Its supply and demand like anything else. The prices seem to rise 5-10% every year on every model from all the manufacturers. At a point I really thought 100K was the magic number that was going to choke the market. I thought that was the top for a tow boat. Heck they hit that and accelerated pricing! Aren't we getting close to having a 200K price tag on a tow boat?

At some point people will say enough is enough. But we aren't there yet as they are still selling. With prices this high like someone said a downturn at this point will wipe out a few of the companies.
Old     (akdoc)      Join Date: Feb 2004       05-08-2017, 11:10 AM Reply   
Was just at Marine Max in Osage Beach this past weekend. They had a G25 stickered at 203K.
Old     (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       05-08-2017, 1:20 PM Reply   
Figured we had to be close!!!!
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       05-08-2017, 2:01 PM Reply   
200K!!!

Was on my buddy's dock yesterday when a newish G23 drove by. I commented on how the the new Nautiques were around 150k. We talked how crazy expensive they are. (buddy has a 40' yacht moored in Kemah) Said G23 drove away from us for a few minutes, turned around and came back. never saw it again. Maybe it was the first time it was started up and run this year, but they definitely didn't have a board with them.

looks like they're trying make up for 1/2 the volume with 2x the price
Old     (CALIV210)      Join Date: Jun 2015       05-08-2017, 2:24 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
200K!!!

Was on my buddy's dock yesterday when a newish G23 drove by. I commented on how the the new Nautiques were around 150k. We talked how crazy expensive they are. (buddy has a 40' yacht moored in Kemah) Said G23 drove away from us for a few minutes, turned around and came back. never saw it again. Maybe it was the first time it was started up and run this year, but they definitely didn't have a board with them.

looks like they're trying make up for 1/2 the volume with 2x the price
I think your last line is very true !!
Old     (allzway)      Join Date: Feb 2014       05-08-2017, 2:31 PM Reply   
A little bitt different story, but my friend owns a Chevy dealership and he told me that when a new truck reached $20k sticker prices back in 1988, he thought how in the world could they keep selling new trucks.

Of course.. fast forward to today and a new truck stickers for $50-60K and he can't keep them.


I do wonder about boats dealers though if they could ever survive a bad recession at this point. The prices are crazy.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       05-08-2017, 2:39 PM Reply   
not too much different, but the same inflation we're seeing on these boat would put the price of a Chevy truck around $40k in 1995.

part of me says makers probably have higher margins and could dump them for much lower prices if needed. the other part of me agrees, we're one downturn from losing a few of these players.

Last edited by denverd1; 05-08-2017 at 2:45 PM.
Old     (hal2814)      Join Date: Feb 2006       05-08-2017, 2:55 PM Reply   
My 1983 Ski Nautique had an original MSRP of about $18,000. Adjusted for inflation, that is about $45,000. For that $45k, you got a short, narrow closed bow 5-seater. No ballast, no stereo, no nothing. You can't even really get that anymore new, but for about $55k, you can get something like the Moomba Helix. It's a solid boat and feature for feature blows a SN2001 out of the water. Sure, the average price is getting more expensive but there is a definite focus on value priced boats these days and the quality of value-oriented boats is phenomenal compared to boats made 15-20 years ago. I don't think a lot of boat manufacturers have to be worried about a downturn. They already pretty much all have their value lines. They just have to be able to spot it and build out their inventory accordingly.
Old     (razorjaw)      Join Date: Jan 2003       05-08-2017, 4:01 PM Reply   
Here in Aus the Pavati boats entered the marked a couple of years ago... starting price was $250k. Beautiful looking boat but I still haven't seen a decent video of anyone wakeboarding behind it...

It most certainly is a wealthy persons sport. That's worth more than $100k on top of my first home.
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       05-08-2017, 4:07 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by CALIV210 View Post
I think your last line is very true !!
Exactly. At some point the strategy shifted from selling lots of boats for a small margin to selling half the boats at a much bigger margin.

If you've bought a new boat in the last 5 years you probably did okay on that investment. They aren't depreciating much.
Old     (alexair)      Join Date: Oct 2008       05-09-2017, 3:00 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hal2814 View Post
My 1983 Ski Nautique had an original MSRP of about $18,000. Adjusted for inflation, that is about $45,000. For that $45k, you got a short, narrow closed bow 5-seater. No ballast, no stereo, no nothing. You can't even really get that anymore new, but for about $55k, you can get something like the Moomba Helix.
Well. If as example compare Nokia 3310 (from end 2000) with even IPhone 5 (on market since Sep 2012) - the tow boats with this grow of price have to looks and perform like a space ship but they are just better dressed only. And MSRP for Helix is $56.7k Also I want to notice CC boats in 1983 had not big difference between base and loaded as modern ones is today. loaded Helix will be close to $80k
Old     (davez71)      Join Date: Oct 2007       05-09-2017, 6:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
Exactly. At some point the strategy shifted from selling lots of boats for a small margin to selling half the boats at a much bigger margin.

If you've bought a new boat in the last 5 years you probably did okay on that investment. They aren't depreciating much.
This is a very true statement. The cost of the boats are rising rapidly.

if it holds true, my X23 may be worth close to what I paid for it in three/four more years.

I was close to upgrading this year to a 2017, but it crazy how much the pricing has changing in three model years. For a comparable model 2017 X23, im looking at close to 20K more than what I paid in 2015.

I looked at a G23 a few weeks back at a boat show and it was 15K more than the deal I got from my MC dealer. Its just getting hard to justify some of these prices.
Old     (Ttime41)      Join Date: Nov 2011       05-09-2017, 6:56 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexair View Post
Well. If as example compare Nokia 3310 (from end 2000) with even IPhone 5 (on market since Sep 2012) - the tow boats with this grow of price have to looks and perform like a space ship but they are just better dressed only. And MSRP for Helix is $56.7k Also I want to notice CC boats in 1983 had not big difference between base and loaded as modern ones is today. loaded Helix will be close to $80k
Lol a loaded Helix is nowhere near 80k. That boat does not have a whole lot of options, therefor price does not fluctuate like it would on a higher end boat with more options to choose. I don't think I've heard of anyone paying more than 65 for one, and many go below 60.
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       05-09-2017, 7:22 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by davez71 View Post
This is a very true statement. The cost of the boats are rising rapidly.

if it holds true, my X23 may be worth close to what I paid for it in three/four more years.

I was close to upgrading this year to a 2017, but it crazy how much the pricing has changing in three model years. For a comparable model 2017 X23, im looking at close to 20K more than what I paid in 2015.

I looked at a G23 a few weeks back at a boat show and it was 15K more than the deal I got from my MC dealer. Its just getting hard to justify some of these prices.

Totally. I just ran an A22 for two years and sold it for nearly what I paid. I got a great deal on the boat so that helped. But it just goes to show you how the steady climb of new boat prices is creating a very strong used boat market. In 2005 I bought a brand new X2 for 35,000. That same boat today with hundreds of hours is still going for close to that price. Insane.
Old     (alexair)      Join Date: Oct 2008       05-09-2017, 9:21 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ttime41 View Post
Lol a loaded Helix is nowhere near 80k. That boat does not have a whole lot of options, therefor price does not fluctuate like it would on a higher end boat with more options to choose. I don't think I've heard of anyone paying more than 65 for one, and many go below 60.
Sorry, MSRP with full options for Helix 2017 is a little bit more $75k - my mistake. But this is more closely to $80k not to $60k. And I notice one more - here we speak about average market prices that means MSRP - not about personal deals with local dealers.
Old     (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Minnesnowda       05-09-2017, 9:34 AM Reply   
Those are some great graphs at the top of this. I have been in shock and awe over boat prices for years. I really wish that some one would make the Honda Accord of Wakeboard boats. I don't need half the fluff that goes into most new boats, but I want the hull and the wake. I recently was told that the towers on the New X-Stars are in the range of $18k just for the tower. I could do without perfect pass, a Huge stereo (I guess I respect my neighbors to much), heaters, hot water, remotes to wear to flip from one side to the other side while surfing, over-the-top interior finishes (lets face it all vinyl ends up the same 10 years later, old, stained and cracking). It's clearly a business decision to sell less and make more margin. But I believe we all want a sport to grow but put up such a huge wall to make the leap into a world class wake nearly impossible for most incomes. I'm sure there is a great argument on the other-side that would argue R & D and cost of materials, but the price seems just out of control.

Here's a few pics of Boat prices from the 2017 MPLS boat show. MSPR's of $200k + G25 , $184K for a G23, and not to exclude I/O's $127K for a Sea Ray. Sorry for the bad pics.
Attached Images
   

Last edited by andy_nintzel; 05-09-2017 at 9:36 AM.
Old     (alexair)      Join Date: Oct 2008       05-09-2017, 12:33 PM Reply   
^^ +1
Old     (kmayotte)      Join Date: Aug 2010       05-09-2017, 12:46 PM Reply   
Andy Nintzel, Have you checked out Heyday Boats? Sounds like you're their target market.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       05-09-2017, 12:52 PM Reply   
111K for an I/O.

there's never been a better example of fat margins than the "boat show pricing" in Andy's pics. drops the price $40K on the G25
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       05-09-2017, 12:55 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmayotte View Post
Andy Nintzel, Have you checked out Heyday Boats? Sounds like you're their target market.
I like what Heyday is doing, wish they left the center console idea alone, they just look weird to me.

I forget who made the boats based on cc2001 hull, but they didn't do very well. Although I think they only made a few boats. definitely seems like a low cost option would sell, at least as entry level boats.
Old     (stevo8290)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-23-2017, 10:14 AM Reply   
Hayday is too far out. Why would you try and make a budget wakeboat that looks like a concept spaceship. I want to blast off the wake not blast off in the weirdest looking boat on the lake category. The formula seems simple.

1. deep haul that creates nothing but a huge wake. no more boat that tries to do everything. Just get me a fat wake.
2. enough motor to get out of the haul. 2 to 1 trans if you have to but i can always reprop if i need to. I used to think 400hp was all you needed but give a 450 option for the big spenders.
3. Under the floor ballast with some space for plumbing overflow
4. Stereo that bumps
5 . mostly analogue gauges. Keep it simple. I don't need to select weight configurations by peoples names. (example- Siri, fill ballast for Mike on Tuesday riding 75 ft) I'm joking but for lords sake can i not just turn switches and fill bags with water jesus.
6. Make it last. take some tech out. We have had all the technology we need for 20 years.

This horse is so dead. Cue people saying stop bitching or if its so easy why don't you start a boat company. The only reason I am chiming in is because I have been looking at a used boats in the super wake category. It just seems weird to buy a used boat for 100k after taxes. Makes me think i should just buy some land and build a private cable. Hey, at least the land will appreciate

Just for fun, here's some of my crew doing our thing

https://www.instagram.com/p/BUa2viag...by=plilernator
Old     (stevo8290)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-23-2017, 10:28 AM Reply   
Let me add I am by no means trying to complain or come off that way. I ride all types of wakes and am beyond blessed to do so. But I, like a few others on this site are trying to tell MFGs that we are an untapped market segment. The weekend warrior still exist and if you could give us a huge wake that wasn't being plowed by a floating lambo then take my money. I feel like the fruits of your labor to give us that boat would yield you tremendous profit.
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       05-23-2017, 11:43 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ttime41 View Post
Lol a loaded Helix is nowhere near 80k. That boat does not have a whole lot of options, therefor price does not fluctuate like it would on a higher end boat with more options to choose. I don't think I've heard of anyone paying more than 65 for one, and many go below 60.
Don't tell that to my buddy that just dropped $76,400 on his loaded and flaked Helix. Just a touch over 80k after freight and prep. You are right, there isn't many options, but his definitely added up, and I think he only got a couple grand off MSRP. (If that)

I'm interested to see it. I think it sprays next week.

I tried to reason with him...... but the dealer doesn't seem to negotiate on moomba prices. Which seems odd, as they do pretty heavy discounts on the Supras (20% usually as a starting point).
Old     (CALIV210)      Join Date: Jun 2015       05-23-2017, 12:22 PM Reply   
Just wait until the environmentalist decide we shouldn't be able to create such big wakes that wash up on shore so far hurting the eggs of some flesh eating bug . They will kill all of our fun over a bug nobody wants .. then these boats will come down in price ..Sorry for the doom and gloom I'm in Cali and they regulate everything away here .
Old     (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       05-23-2017, 1:08 PM Reply   
I don't think you are far off. As the wakes get bigger and bigger they do more damage to shorelines and the environment. Its only a matter of time until legislation is enacted(many states are working on it currently). We are seeing more and more posts about people living on lakes that have boat size limits and now are banning ballast. If you think there isn't legislation in the pipeline for many states you are wrong. Lakeshore is expensive and the owners who hate the surf waves that own it have money. With money comes legislative power.

Sorry surfers but we wakeboarded for 20+ years(Since it got big in the 90's) and somehow damaged the shorelines and our image far less than surfing has managed to do in just the last 3-5. Regulation is coming. Some have asked how big can the surf waves get? I predict we will see regulation that shuts it down or severely limits surfing before we find out.
Old     (Reddog78)      Join Date: Mar 2017       05-23-2017, 1:20 PM Reply   
^hope so.
Old     (tripsw)      Join Date: May 2006       05-23-2017, 1:54 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
I forget who made the boats based on cc2001 hull, but they didn't do very well. Although I think they only made a few boats. definitely seems like a low cost option would sell, at least as entry level boats.
That was Standard Boats. Loved their idea. Too bad they didn't do V-drive versions, think that might have worked better. Would love to repeat their thing but with the old 210 or 205V hull. Too bad I know d!ck about building boats...
Old     (cbarguy1)      Join Date: Dec 2012       05-23-2017, 2:42 PM Reply   
There have been a couple new classes of boats added since 2000 which was the dawn of the v-drive age. And these new classes didn't really compare to what came before them. The first class breaker was the Gen2 X* which broke the mold on size and features not to mention capability. I see the G23 as the next class breaker which upped the size and performance rules again.

The statement about 1/2 the volume and 2x the price is very true in this and a lot of other recreational products. Its a reflection of what's happened to the middle class. There really isn't one anymore.

But to be fair, there a many good boats at reasonable prices like MB and Moomba. Heck even the Malibu VLX line is pretty reasonable. Everyone focuses on the price leaders but its like complaining about how expensive Ferraris and Lambos are.
Old     (granddaddy53)      Join Date: Dec 2013       05-24-2017, 7:26 AM Reply   
The reason in Texas is that 6 out of 10 real jobs created in the US were created in Texas during the last 9 years
Old     (granddaddy53)      Join Date: Dec 2013       05-24-2017, 7:41 AM Reply   
you guys have the power of the pen so don't press down and check so many boxes, in Louisiana where demand is lower a 2013 ordered 2014 A20'surfgate axis including tandem painted galvanized trailer $54900 before TTL, Safety equip, and boards , sacs, etc. price after 63500

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