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Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-15-2012, 8:31 PM Reply   
Here is my saga that I have not been able to resolve on the sequoia forums. I took my 08 Toyota sequoia into the dealership for a new water pump. It has the 5.7 liter as in the Tundra and a timing chain not belt. The old Pump was barely dripping, just started, after 96000 miles.

The dealer gave me a loaner and the next day I called about pickup and was told that they were having a timing issue. The next day I called and the service tech said he thought it had a bearing issue. I went to look at the vehicle and the engine and transmission were out, the valve covers were off and they said they were pulling the pan. The next day I was told it threw a mainbearing but not to worry because since it was "on their watch" they would cover all costs.

The whole thing stinks of a major screwup and cover-up and I have a lot to consider. What stumps me is how a simple water pump change can go so wrong. Can someone help and explain how the water pump may be connected to the timing and bearing failure? I am desperate for some advise and understanding of what may have happened.
Old    9Drozd            03-15-2012, 11:19 PM Reply   
My guess would be that being it was out of timing and has overhead cams, the piston hit a valve and i guess marred a main bearing up. Just my thought.
Old     (durty_curt)      Join Date: Apr 2008       03-16-2012, 12:41 AM Reply   
I'm more concerned that something like this happened at a certified Toyota dealer
Old     (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-16-2012, 4:24 AM Reply   
Water pumps on vehicles are driven by a belt, so I don't see how anything could have happened with the removal and replacement of the water pump.

My timing chain has to be replaced at 209k miles, that seems awfully early for a vehicle, but I can't speak to the durability of foreign truck
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-16-2012, 4:55 AM Reply   
How would the timing get screwed up in a water pump replacement?

The vehicle has been flawless to this point. The water pump is the first and only issue I have had.
Old    Walter            03-16-2012, 6:07 AM Reply   
I checked the labor time to do a water pump replacement and it pays almost 6 hours, removal of the timing belt is required to get the pump off on the 2UZ-FE engine which I think is the 4.7, not required on the 3UR-FE and it still pays 5 hours which is the 5.7, Something bad must have gone wrong or a tech just made a mistake for the timing to have been messed up, more than likely they will have to pull the heads and fix a few bent valves if the timing belt was messed with and not put back in time. Sorry to hear about the bad luck, hope they make it right with you.
Old     (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-16-2012, 6:59 AM Reply   
You have to be kidding...On a Toyota, you have to remove the the timing chain/belt to change the waterpump....
Old     (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-16-2012, 7:01 AM Reply   
Sounds like they though they where working on the 4.7 and put it back together with those specs and that wouldn't work well well for your engine
Old    Walter            03-16-2012, 7:29 AM Reply   
Haha the new Eco boost ford truck water pump pays 19.5 hours and includes time to remove engine to replace, wait until some of those start to fail, there is gonna be a lot of angry truck owners running around, 2500$ for a water pump, ridiculous
Old     (sxjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-16-2012, 8:25 AM Reply   
been a tech for toyota and now lexus for over 15 years. the 4.7 and 5.7 are completely different engines. on the 5.7 engine the pump sits out front and is NOT driven by the timing chain "there is no timing belt that's a 4.7". it is only driven by the drive belt. warranty barely pays 2 hours. i cant imagine how bad someone screwed up. its like changing a water pump on a chevy 350 from 1975. did you have the oil changed while it was in there? my guess is they didnt add oil fired it up and burned up the main bearings. i would definitly be asking questions!!! you need to find out what happened, the extent of the damage and how they are repairing it. if they just patch it up and give it back to you, you could be risking the longterm durability of that engine
Old     (Jeff)      Join Date: May 2010       03-16-2012, 8:54 AM Reply   
Assuming what Doug says about the water pump on the Toyota 5.7 is correct it sounds just like changing an accessory belt driven water pump on your average American V8. Would have absolutely nothing to do with timing or main bearings. If someone screwed up timing in that process they had no idea what they were doing and went totally off task. I wonder if they gave it to some lackie who assumed he needed to remove the timing chain (semi involved process) to replace the water pump. Then when he realized that he was an idiot he reassembled incorrectly.

Whatever happened I fail to see why they would pull your engine/transmission without consulting you first unless they were trying to cover something up. If they legitimately found something that wasn't right and was more extensive than originally expected I'd think they'd call and tell you what they found first.
Old    Walter            03-16-2012, 9:06 AM Reply   
Had to have been a rookie, Mitchell parts and labor shows 4.6 hours standard labor rate, which is a big job just for a water pump, most are 1.5-2 hours, but if it was someone who had never done one before he probably just got overwhelmed with getting to the pump or read the procedure for the wrong engine and then got more than he asked for, I would definitely go down there and ask for someone to take you to your truck and explain what is going on.
Old     (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       03-16-2012, 11:22 AM Reply   
96k for a water pump on a toyota sounds like you were pretty lucky.
http://www.tundratalk.net/forums/tun...serp-belt.html



Look at the bright side. You get a new motor!
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-16-2012, 11:48 AM Reply   
Your a glass half full guy Tim. If I knew I was getting a new motor I would be happier but when you see your engine spread around the shop floor you question what you truly getting.

Doug, glad someone with your expertise chimed in, thanks. What does drive the water pump on the 5.7?

The oil was changed two weeks earlier and that's when the water pump leak was found. I scheduled the water pump, brakes and a new serpentine belt for a later date when I had the time.

When I see the invoice for the "paid" work I expect to see a list of items installed with a no charge. This should tell me that the appropriate engine parts were installed. However, although I'm mechanical I am no expert. I'm not sure what I should be seeing on the replaced parts list. Additionally, I'm not sure what it will take to extend the warranty and what I can expect. I hope we can settle this up without a fight. Can you give me any additional insight?
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-16-2012, 12:20 PM Reply   
They have been tight lipped but have also continually assured my that I will bear no costs. A friend made the point that they could have buried and found a way to get me to pay for the repair. While they are standing up for the fix, they are not forthcoming on the cause. So far I have been told its dumb luck that it failed while they were working on the truck and because it was under their watch they were going to do the right thing. I have never had a dealer not try to pinch every nickle from me and based on sketchy conversations with them I know something went wrong. They are either very good people or snakes, nothing in between.
Old     (sxjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-16-2012, 1:41 PM Reply   
Tim- the engine drive belt or accessory belt drives that water pump. i would take "you will bear no costs" with a grain of salt. i call BS on it was just dumb luck that is happened on "their watch" . if the dealership says it was just dumb luck they would call you with an estimate to repair. You really need to get involved, go down to the dealership and have them explain to you what happened. tight lipped usually or always means something is up. i would ask to talk to the service manager and the tech working on it. have them show you the damage and explain what their showing you and how they plan to repair it. there is no need for them to be in the timing chain or main bearing area for that pump. i dont know the laws where your at but in CA we cant just tear apart anything without at least verbal communication with the customer. watch their demeanor it will tell you alot. see how many other tech's stop working and start starring your way.

as far as looking at the invoice i would personally want to see main bearings and possibly a crankshaft based on how bad the bearing and crankshaft journal looks. if there is any scoring , heat marks or grooves i would want the crank replaced . if their reusing the crank i would want the journal to look like new and meet factory specs.
we had a lube tech forget to put oil in a Lexus Lx470 and it destroyed the bearing and badly scored the crank it was maybe driven a half mile. dealership put a low mileage used engine in it. the customer was informed of everything, while they were disappointed they were happy in the end. service advisors will just lie lie and lie some more. go to the manager or even general manager or owner if need be. if there a good dealer the BS should stop quick.
Old     (sxjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-16-2012, 1:42 PM Reply   
and then maybe their just trying to milk warranty cause their slow as hell
Old     (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       03-16-2012, 2:12 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by srock View Post
when you see your engine spread around the shop floor you question what you truly getting.
Believe me, I feel your pain brother.

I once paid like 2 or 3 grand to get a new clutch put in a Porsche....told the shop owner I wanted the old parts for kicks. Got home and opened up the box of parts and they were BMW parts

The owner swore that a new clutch was installed while the mechanic said point blank he didn't put one in.

"parts all over the shop floor"...scary.
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-16-2012, 2:58 PM Reply   
Thanks a lot Doug, I feel like I should give you a couple pulls and friend you. Funny you mentioned it the techs all moved away like I had the plague. The tech at the engine beside my truck said he was just getting into the mystery problem on the tail end and knew little about it yet. The second time he was still the guy on the job saying nothing but just another day on the job... The service adviser is always the person saying I'm not sure yet but I'll see if I can get some more information...what b.s.

The truck was to be done today and I'm kicking myself for not taking an independent mechanic to look at the engine while apart. I'll attempt to see some old parts but I'm sure they are "gone". I'll drive their loaner until Monday's showdown.

I expect that the dealership would be able to produce a complete parts list when I pick it up and on the spot correct? Is the standard that everything on a repair would be logged and billed to the job???

I guess at a minimum I should demand a long warranty on the repair...from them not a third party. Ultimately that would probably be the best thing for me. Is that something the dealerships try to get away from?

Thanks again for taking the time.

I hope I don't need to get a attorney involved, that's always a looser for everyone but I'm at the point of fighting for principle.
Old     (sxjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-16-2012, 3:47 PM Reply   
Tim- no prob glad to help. yeah i might take you up on some pulls if im ever in your area.

as for paper work. YES they should have a complete list of all parts installed on your vehicle. Should at least have a small explanation of what they did. but it
might just be a bunch of bs and not tell you all that much. You may not see what the parts cost but part numbers with a brief explanation of what the part is. and YES i would demand a long warranty from them and not though a 3rd party. its not uncommon. my dealership has done it several times. They may limit it to just the mechanical engine, but honestly thats all that matters for this issue.

i would try to avoid attorneys as well. You might contact the BAR (bureau of auto repair) if its becomes an issue. The BAR is worse than the IRS, especially at a dealership. they'll have your best interest in mind and are generally pretty fair to both parties, unless some one has blantantly screwed up and is trying to cover it up.
Good Luck
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-16-2012, 7:37 PM Reply   
I feel a little better armed. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Last edited by srock; 03-16-2012 at 7:40 PM.
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-20-2012, 6:13 AM Reply   
Hey Doug, any validity to this comment below. At first I was told there was a timing issue...Its been 2 weeks and they still have my vehicle.

Im not a toyota tech but im a mercedes tech and on most mercedes there are 8-10 bolts holding the water pump to the engine, all different lengths. Some are very long (about 4.5 inches long) and some are about a half inch long. If one of the long bolts gets put into a short bolt hole, the long bolt will thread right out the back of the pump possibly thru the front timing cover and into the timing chain, chain guide rails, or possible thru the back of the front cover which would be catastrophic if not found in time. Now obviously im talking about a different engine, but a lot of engines these days have similar designs. Im just trying to help think of what could have caused "timing damage" that the engine had to be pulled.
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-20-2012, 6:18 AM Reply   
Could you imagine going to get something out of your car because the water pump replacement was having a couple issues then seeing this?
Attached Images
   
Old     (nautiquesonly)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-20-2012, 6:37 AM Reply   
What is the latest update on this?
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-20-2012, 6:51 AM Reply   
I expect a call today or tomorrow to come get my vehicle. Then the final negotiations start. Although they have a major screw up on their hands I think the best option for me is to get a big warranty out of the deal. Ultimately that is all that matters. I hope they don't resist because I don't want to drag out a fight.

I was going to run the vehicle for 160,0000 plus miles. It's very clean and well maintained but after this nightmare I have thought about trading the vehicle since it has 96,000 miles and I understand that over 100,000 miles banks don't want to finance them so they become less desirable trades. Maybe the dealer would cut me a deal for my troubles and not having the warranty to worry about. However, knowing dealerships they would just see it as an opportunity to squeeze some money from me.
Old     (sxjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-20-2012, 8:35 AM Reply   
Tim- yes there is some validity to that comment. there are 8 bolts holding that pump on and they use 3 different sized bolts. definitly a possibility.

Have to say there is nothing like pics of a car torn to pieces. i still cant believe they didnt call you to tell you they were tearing it down.
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-20-2012, 8:51 AM Reply   
When they told me they were having problems with the timing and would need to hold the vehicle for another day I told them I needed to pick up my sons baseball gear and a work file. Them I was given a by the way...we are pulling to engine and this is what I way when I arrived.
Old     (sxjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-20-2012, 11:38 AM Reply   
Not to frustrate you anymore but i was just looking over those pics and noticed they removed the trans without disconnecting the torque converter. That's a big no no where i come from. i would really question the skill level of the tech working on your car. if you discover trans issues after picking up the vehicle i would not be suprized.
Old     (sxjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-20-2012, 12:06 PM Reply   
just to cover all bases there is only two reasons why you would ever remove a trans without disconnecting the torque converter first.....

1. the engine is seized and you are unable to access the torque converter bolts (which maybe the case)

OR you dont want to rotate the engine due to cam timing being off and you may damage the engine by turning the crankshaft, but if cam timing is off most likely the damage has already been done. (which also maybe the case)

2. the transmission is seized and you are unable to access the torque converter bolts
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-20-2012, 3:48 PM Reply   
Doug, no added frustration here. I appreciate all your input. Its just one more reason for me to fight for a fair resolution. I wish you were local and I'd pay for you to attend my meeting with them.
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-21-2012, 6:01 AM Reply   
So here it is the tech said he had the bolts wrong and drove a bolt through to the bearing. The only thing replaced is the bearing.

They want to provide me with a 1 year warranty. After speaking to the tech with the service advisor the service manager was called over. He lied and told me they fixed a problem for free. I said a problem you created and he said it was not his problem. After telling him I just spoke with the tech and i know what happend he said your getting warranty on an engine with no warranty and engines get rebuilt all the time. That's the best your going to get.

Also the tech noted that the were trying to figure out why the engine was making noise under hard acceleration.

I guess the battle begins.
Old     (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       03-21-2012, 6:21 AM Reply   
A one year warranty should give you plenty of time to catch any outstanding issues.

At least they didn't give you back a car with a bad bearing, you can be damn sure that some lousy shops will definitely do that and not think twice.
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-21-2012, 6:28 AM Reply   
They couldn't give it back to me but they sure as hell would have given the chance. Sorry sir it took two weeks to fix your water pump which is now done but the engine does not run. Do you want us to fix that too?

I wonder what the warranty will look like. I sure they will warrant one main bearing and that's it. Hey the transmission is not our problem, as dave noted it will be, hey the other failed bearings are not our issue.

Last edited by srock; 03-21-2012 at 6:37 AM.
Old     (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       03-21-2012, 7:09 AM Reply   
They should warranty everything they took out of the car for at least a month or so... I am pretty sure there are some laws around warrantying all work done for a short period of time, but that's probably a state thing.

Here is what I would expect.

1 - Everything that was removed for the engine rebuild should be warrantied for 90 days.
2 - The rotating assembly, valve-train, timing belt and water pump should be warrantied for 1 year

I understand that you are upset, but they can't just go out and all of the sudden warranty your entire vehicle on account of this issue. Just because some dude on a wakeboard forum claims from looking at 2 pictures, that the transmission wasn't removed correctly doesn't mean **** (no offense). If I came into your place of work, took 2 pictures of what you were working on, posted it online and got some negative feedback, what would you say?

Tell them you are concerned that since so many parts were removed, that you would like some peace of mind that if something there wasn't done correctly, they'll fix it. 90 days should be plenty of time to figure all of that out. The engine is the part they really ****ed up, so getting a 1 year warranty on it is pretty solid.
Old     (sxjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-21-2012, 8:16 AM Reply   
id like to know how installing the wrong bolt in the waterpump (middle of the engine) and horizontal to some how went through and damaged a bearing that is in the lower half of the engine and is vertical and supported on top by the block and bottom by a least a 1/2 inch thick bearing cap. with out damaging the block or main bearing cap. not to mention the bearing is only an 1/8 inch wide at that point. a 1 year warranty is standard on all dealership repairs. your not getting anything out of the ordinary. i would personally pickup the vehicle and take it for a good test drive. i would really hope that tech disconnected the torque converter and properly installed it and checked to make sure the torque converter to bellhousing spec is correct. if he just shoved the tranny back on you will have issues that will show up on a test drive. if it will even move at all.

i wouldnt give that dealership any of my business again, and i would call the toyota 1-800 number and tell them what s going on

sorry about your issues all dealerships are not created equal hopefully you have options nearby
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-21-2012, 12:20 PM Reply   
I asked for a copy of the warranty to be sent to me before I pick it up. My bet is that if I have any problem not directly related to their work, which is still not truthfully or fully disclosed, that the warranty may not be honored. I'm sure I would be told the go scratch if I came in with a transmission issue.

There are many options nearby but I am calling every single agency that will listen. This dealer is one of the larger dealerships in Florida with locations all over the state and many different manufactures.
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-21-2012, 2:36 PM Reply   
Tom,

I am not talking about a new car or unreasonable warranty but one year? If the engine is now good as new give me the new car drive train warranty. I'll would be happy to handle the bolt on stuff.

There is a difference between having a problem and covering it up. If I had not talked directly to their tech and gotten the truth, the service advisers and manager we ready to walk the "we did you a favor" by fixing a problem YOU had with YOUR car. After arguing with the guy and letting him dig his hole, I told him I spoke with the tech and was told they made a mistake a drove a bolt into the engine. I guarantee if they had the opportunity they would have twisted the issue and stuck me with a defective vehicle or bill.

Hell I walked into the dealership to get my sons baseball gear because as they told me there was a minor timing issue and it would take a little time. Guess what, I found the engine, transmission and exhaust system on the garage floor. Do you think they should have told me a little more, do you think I should trust their work, do you think I should trust their word. I'm willing to bet that Dave knows a lot more than you or me on the subject.

By the way they were road testing it yesterday and they cannot get it to stop making noise under heavy acceleration. Two more days of adjustment...does that sound like a solid rebuild?

Last edited by srock; 03-21-2012 at 2:38 PM.
Old     (jtech)      Join Date: Aug 2008       03-21-2012, 2:54 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by srock View Post
Tom,

I am not talking about a new car or unreasonable warranty but one year? If the engine is now good as new give me the new car drive train warranty. I'll would be happy to handle the bolt on stuff.

There is a difference between having a problem and covering it up. If I had not talked directly to their tech and gotten the truth, the service advisers and manager we ready to walk the "we did you a favor" by fixing a problem YOU had with YOUR car. After arguing with the guy and letting him dig his hole, I told him I spoke with the tech and was told they made a mistake a drove a bolt into the engine. I guarantee if they had the opportunity they would have twisted the issue and stuck me with a defective vehicle or bill.

Hell I walked into the dealership to get my sons baseball gear because as they told me there was a minor timing issue and it would take a little time. Guess what, I found the engine, transmission and exhaust system on the garage floor. Do you think they should have told me a little more, do you think I should trust their work, do you think I should trust their word. I'm willing to bet that Dave knows a lot more than you or me on the subject.

By the way they were road testing it yesterday and they cannot get it to stop making noise under heavy acceleration. Two more days of adjustment...does that sound like a solid rebuild?
Sounds like they are trying to hide something that they did and are trying to cover it up. The fact that they have "rebuilt" it and still are having issues at this point is even worse as they probably are trying to bitch fix it. Get an attorney, call Toyota corporate and tell the dealer to stop all repairs on the vehicle until they disclose what happened from the start until now. Remember, this all goes on your service history and can be found by any dealer or prospective buyer looking to buy it down the road. IE: Your going to get screwed trying to tell this story to someone in the future and not take a huge hit in value on a trade or private party. Ask me how I know.
Old     (adam4x4)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-21-2012, 3:18 PM Reply   
All I can say is wow. This is one of the trucks that I'm looking at buying in the next few weeks. I know not all service shops are like this one, but that is hard to see. Why is all the parts on the floor, even the AC compressor, and the hood upside down. Just dose not look like the are a good shop.
Old    Walter            03-21-2012, 4:15 PM Reply   
Wow, this is getting ridiculous.....
Old     (jetskiprosx)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-21-2012, 6:32 PM Reply   
Is it unreasonable to demand they buy your rig at full market value? I love my Tundra, but if this happened to it (and 'fixed' by them) I wouldn't want it. You should get Toyota involved right away and get everything documented that's going down. If that doesn't work, get an attorney friend/family member to write them a nice letter
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-21-2012, 7:37 PM Reply   
The sequoia was flawless until these jackasses fixed my first issue. Its a major dealer.
Old     (pprior)      Join Date: Jan 2012       03-21-2012, 8:12 PM Reply   
If the service manager lied to you, I wouldn't say another word to him. Speak to the general manager of the dealership, or even the owner. Given the FUBAR going on here, and now new problems after the rebuild, playing Mr. Nice Guy is not getting you anywhere. Document every conversation including dates and times. Take as many pictures as you can and make note of all problems. Give them a firm time to have all issues resolved and stick to it. The fact that they are lying to you tells you everything you need to know about how they will treat you if they can get away from it.
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-21-2012, 8:19 PM Reply   
Jason,

It may have been a retorical statement but it is a concern. My first thought was the loss of vale from a carfax report but I also heard carfax does not report that. Next I realized that you could enter the vin onto Toyota's site and receive all this info. Yes I believe my value will be impacted.
Old     (jtech)      Join Date: Aug 2008       03-22-2012, 9:52 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by srock View Post
Jason,

It may have been a retorical statement but it is a concern. My first thought was the loss of vale from a carfax report but I also heard carfax does not report that. Next I realized that you could enter the vin onto Toyota's site and receive all this info. Yes I believe my value will be impacted.
Carfax will show repairs if they are done by a dealer and reported by them. My BMW that I bought last year had years of summary reports on Carfax up to one month before I bought my car. I knew from the Carfax before I got the service records from the dealer that it had been serviced there it's whole life.

I doubt that they will buy the car back from you under some loss of value or "diminished" value clause. The fact that they are lying to you is only going to cost you in the end, not them unless you involve an attorney and put pressure on them to come clean. Chattwake (member her) is an Attorney, probably doesn't practice in this area but you might want to PM him and see what he thinks. Also, involving Toyota is a must to document what has happened up to this point and what can be done to keep you as a Toyota owner which will be there priority given the bad press in the past few years.

Say someone burnt your house down by accident, then lied about it. You found out later that they did and were trying to cover their tracks would you still let them re-build your house and cut corners in the process? I know a home and a car a different things, but they are both still yours, cost a lot of money and you should make 100% sure they are not screwing you. Trust me, they will try.
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-22-2012, 11:10 AM Reply   
Thanks Jason you have made a valid point.

I added the diminished value concern to my a letter that went out this morning to the dealership GM. Its a larger automotive group and the letter will then go to the main offices, Southeast Toyota, Toyota and my attorney. I'm starting low and will quickly move up the ladder. I hope they recognize it's in all our interests to resolve this quickly but I'm not going down without a fight.

I have been requesting copies of their warranty but I have received two days of excuses. Its printed on the back of every invoice per the advisor but he has been "too busy to get to it" and "he as to figure out how to get a blank copy for transmittal. Can you believe it?
Old     (sxjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-22-2012, 12:11 PM Reply   
Tim - glad to see you have some fight left in you. Your headed in a good direction. written letters have a huge impact on Toyota corporate. im sure or i damn well hope you see some cooperation on their end. It really sucks to see it get to this point. Large dealerships sometimes get the notion you dont matter or you really wont effect there bottom line even if you dont return as a customer. But forums like this are really starting to make dealerships wake up. Just look at the number of views on this thread. If toyota saw this your issues would probably be over in a heart beat.
Old     (jtech)      Join Date: Aug 2008       03-22-2012, 2:24 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by srock View Post
Thanks Jason you have made a valid point.

I added the diminished value concern to my a letter that went out this morning to the dealership GM. Its a larger automotive group and the letter will then go to the main offices, Southeast Toyota, Toyota and my attorney. I'm starting low and will quickly move up the ladder. I hope they recognize it's in all our interests to resolve this quickly but I'm not going down without a fight.

I have been requesting copies of their warranty but I have received two days of excuses. Its printed on the back of every invoice per the advisor but he has been "too busy to get to it" and "he as to figure out how to get a blank copy for transmittal. Can you believe it?
No problem man, I hate to see people go through things like this. I know 1st hand what it's like to get caught up in the moment when you look at your vehicle and wonder what went wrong. They know that too and tried their best to keep you at bay while the put a band-aid on it.

If you want a copy of that invoice warranty, have a neighbor go buy a very cheap part (that they can return). I bet it's the same invoice as the service side.
Old     (antoddio)      Join Date: Dec 2006       03-22-2012, 2:47 PM Reply   
I've always thought of going to the sales floor and calmly meeting new potential customers and explaining to them your predicament and why they shouldn't buy a car there. The could kill some deals real quick. As long as you stay calm, what is the dealer going to do, call the cops on you? I would think they would cave to you pretty quick. Or at least some of those salesmen will have quite the word with the service manager causing the problems. Just a fun idea.
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-22-2012, 4:30 PM Reply   
Thanks for the warranty offer. I prefer to get it from my dealership. I have been asking and continue to ask.
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-22-2012, 4:34 PM Reply   
Perhaps I'll forward my link to a couple sites I have been on. I would be happy to report a positive outcome. I have been silent on the dealer with the hope that this would become positive.
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-27-2012, 9:44 AM Reply   
The resolution is taking shape. The Dealership offered a short block engine and a one year engine and transmission warranty. What do you all think?
Old     (Brett_B)      Join Date: Sep 2010       03-27-2012, 10:51 AM Reply   
"Short block" means block, crank, rods, pistons, etc, but no heads. How are they certain that the heads aren't trashed? If they damaged a bearing then bearing material is likely in every oil passage, including those that feed the lifters and cams. If it's just a short block they will have to bolt on the old heads and attempt to set the timing again. Weren't they having trouble setting the timing to begin with? How do you know no valves are damaged or cam journals scored? How will they ensure the oil passages are completely free of bearing material to prevent damaging the new short block as soon as it's fired up?

I think the one year warranty sounds good, IF they give you a new long block (short block plus heads already assembled). That way you know it's clean of bearing debris and properly assembled at the factory. Hopefully they can't do too much more damage by just bolting on the intake/exhaust manifolds, accessories, etc.

If your engine has an external oil cooler make sure you get a brand new oil cooler and lines too. You can never get all the junk out of an oil cooler and it's not worth trashing another motor vs. just replacing the cooler.

Last edited by Brett_B; 03-27-2012 at 10:53 AM.
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-27-2012, 1:03 PM Reply   
Thanks Brett. I'm thinking they need to provide a long block and decent warranty. I have my doubts on the value of the warranty unless it's written on the manufacture's paper.

Good point on the oil cooler and lines I'll have to research on the location. Doug can you help me some more?
Old     (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       03-27-2012, 1:10 PM Reply   
Bearing material stuck in the passages all the way up in the heads? Come on now. You can't seriously think that is a legitimate possibility.
Old     (Txjole)      Join Date: Dec 2011       03-27-2012, 1:14 PM Reply   
I think you should get a lawyer involved so your protected. Have the lawyer demand that his fees are paid by the dealership. I bet they have talked to thier lawyers. I would also have this thread pulled down because if it does go legal, this could be found and spun to favor the other side.
Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       03-27-2012, 1:18 PM Reply   
You have to be a seriously rookie mechanic to run the wrong size bolt in, then tighten it down to the point where it punctures the timing cover. When a bolt gets tight before it's all the way in it is either: a) the wrong bolt, or b) cross threaded. Either way you should investigate before you go further. If the front cover had to come off, then the oil pan may have needed to come off, too. I've never had a Toyota apart to that point, but that's how it is on a BMW.

S%$t happens when you're working on cars. Every professional mechanic has had something go wrong for them at some time or other. At some point, though, on a screw up this major you just have to come clean with the customer and make sure they're taken care of.

If this happened at our shop we'd make sure it was fixed right and you were happy. That would likely include us covering the cost of the repair and a rental car for you.

Good luck. There are some bad seeds out there that make all professional mechanics look bad. I promise, there really are some guys out there that are trying to do right by the customer.
Old     (Brett_B)      Join Date: Sep 2010       03-27-2012, 1:36 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardjnky4 View Post
Bearing material stuck in the passages all the way up in the heads? Come on now. You can't seriously think that is a legitimate possibility.
Of course it happens, I have seen it with my own eyes in my engine building days. Just assuming the heads are clean and slapping them back on after a bearing failure is very poor engine building practice, and leads to ongoing problems exactly like what we are seeing here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by srock View Post
By the way they were road testing it yesterday and they cannot get it to stop making noise under heavy acceleration.
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-27-2012, 2:52 PM Reply   
They already put the vehicle together once and could not get it to run correctly. Now a short block? Could have done it right the first time. I also just read the proposed warranty, took a week to receive it. These guys are doing me no favors. I guess the writings on the wall.
Old     (imx)      Join Date: Jul 2009       03-27-2012, 7:25 PM Reply   
Classic case of "green branch", the vendor bending more and more each time a little bit of extra pressure is applied. Look at where you are now compared to the start of your dramas. They are obviously trying to find your point of satisfaction without having to incur any more cost than they have to. Keep climbing the tree until you reach the right perch.
Old     (sxjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-27-2012, 7:40 PM Reply   
Tim- sorry for the delayed response. my work axed our internet access over the weekend. ill PM you my email address if you need something quick.

the 5.7 engine does not have an engine oil cooler. i personally think they are starting to head in the right direction. it's very difficult to get a "long block " through toyota. they are very expensive, back in 2003 when people were blowing up toyota celica gts i installed one of the first long blocks it came off the assembly line was shipped in a covered crate and had harness, alterator, ac compressor, even belts, it was $17,000. after that they made us repair them. Lexus's ISF long block is close to $30,000. the scary thing is im not exagerating. anyways toyota pieces all of its engines back together 99.99% of the time. short blocks are even somewhat rare. as for metal shavings if this was a catastophic failure i might worry about that but its not based on what you have said. this isnt nascar no dealership uses "clean rooms" people are a little paranoid. its really not an issue. the oil filter should have picked up most of it and if it didnt the vvti filters would have. those vvti filters are there because toyota is so paranoid about debree in the vvti solenids and actuators. now after saying that the dealership will most likely throw everything in a hot tank or dishwasher as we call them and try to get things as clean as possible. trust me they want it fixed this time too. i would recommend you go down and inspect the heads when they are off. i wouldnt let them put it together until you have inspected it even if it delays things.

inspect the cam journals on the heads and caps, inpect the cams. FYI toyota doesnt use cam bearings so dont be suprized if your not seeing them, this isnt a small block 350. its simple it should be nice and smooth with out gouges or scrapes and look for signs of overheating ( dark or blue heat marks). flip the heads over valve faces up and look around all the seats your looking for bent valves even the slightest bend can cause "noise under heavy acceleration" there not always bent over 30 or 40 degress. if possible have the spark plug in and fill the recessed area full of solvent all the way up to the sealing surface of the head do all 8 cylinders at once wait 5 to 10 minutes and see if the solvent leaks out. You could even use water but solvent is thinner and will show leaks better. YOu may even insist they send them out to a machine shop and have them looked over.
if they were "having trouble with the timing" its very possible they may have bent a valve especially given their skill level.
if they replace the short block and timing cover and the heads check out and they assemble it correctly i think thats a solid repair and if there gonna cover the engine and trans for a year its not bad.

is corporate involved or did they come to this short block repair on their own? you need to explain where your at with all parties. you need to know how much room you have to negotiate. if corporate is involved you maybe looking at your best deal if you dont wont to involve lawyers. corporate is pretty fair when it comes down to crap like this
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-28-2012, 7:06 AM Reply   
No corporate but I'm thinking about calling today. The warranty appears to be from the Dealer and for one year 12,000 miles. I'll eat that up in 5 months.
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       04-03-2012, 12:48 PM Reply   
Doug, sent you an email.
Old     (nautiquesonly)      Join Date: Sep 2007       04-03-2012, 2:09 PM Reply   
Any updates?
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       04-04-2012, 7:04 AM Reply   
For those of you following the post here is were this thing has gone.

All the posts of "demand this" or "don't settle for anything but" does not get you very far unless the dealership really cares. I am also very calm headed and to those who think that getting pissed or angry may be a better route to take may be right because you would have cut to the chase a lot quicker, but probably with a lot less documentation than I obtained.

I spoke with the manufacturer and they said this is a dealer/client issue governed by the State of Florida. We will put a note in the dealers file and with enough complaints or illegal activity investigate further. In other words go get a lawyer we are not doing squat.

The dealer offered a short block and engine warranty and I convinced them to cover the tranny as well. However, they would never send me a copy of the warranty. After emails and a bunch of badgering they sent it. The warranty covers dealer installed parts for 1 year 12,000 miles. It essentially rides on the manufactures warranty on the part and transfers liability. So the warranty on the transmission means nothing and I'm sure the engine would never fail from a covered part. Failure of the engine for any reason except new parts is not covered and they clearly point this out.

So, the only option left is a lawyer. If you ever deal with legal issues, you now that this is the option where everybody pays an attorney and gets next to nothing in return.

As an past owner of 6 Toyota vehicles and as the person who will be purchasing a fleet of vehicles for my company. Toyota will not be on the list. Any vehicle offered through the the Ed Morse Automotive Group will be off the list.

I will now involve my attorney out of spite but this has been a big negative and I will be telling the world.
Old     (antoddio)      Join Date: Dec 2006       04-04-2012, 7:34 AM Reply   
Well just know that if someone likes to withhold information and screw folks over, they are probably not happy with their lives. I've never met a jerk that was truly happy or wasn't headed to a life crisis. You are probably dealing with an individual trying to compensate for other inadequacies in their lives, family problems, alcoholism, drug abuse, depression or a combination of the above. Sad, really. Mistakes happen, but they need to admit it, make it right and move on.
Old     (Jeff)      Join Date: May 2010       04-11-2012, 9:45 AM Reply   
This is always an option:
http://www.stupidvideos.com/video/De.../?m=new#397489

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