Taking it to extremes, boat change?

Been working on my boat a little too much for the last 2 years. I think I might be getting closer to getting "reliable"(?) but it has been a long road, not to mention expensive.

Now with a second kid on the way with the other one at 18 months as of now, I am thinking of getting something bigger. I currently have an absolutely mint 03 SANTE with 250ish hours, new tower Bimini, 1250 in ballast all redone in 1200 gph aerator pumps, brand new prop, 1 year old trailer, red/black/white, the thing is sick.

I went with the wife to the dealer and looked at a 09 gravity games xlv moomba. 225 hours, wet sounds everything, 340 extcat engine, dual axle trailer, seems really nice. Price of about 50 to start.

The price seems about in line with where it should be if not a touch high. Not sure what I can get for mine, I would guess about 30 flat.

I really don't need a bigger boat, not sure if I am looking for a reason to justify it or what. I know I need to ride it, but what are people's thoughts on this wake, or 210 vs xlv, or my situation. I just don't really know where to go with this. Help me make a decision.

Not looking for a "look at this instead" response, just this vs that.

I too have 2 small ones and can see where the 210 may feel a little bit small. I would keep what you have, for the following reasons. 1. Money -Newer more expensive boat is going to be more money (not sure if you own it outright, but you will either have a new payment, a bigger payment, or if you throw 20K at the new one, you will have 20K less in savings). 2. Upgrades - sounds like your SAN is dialed and have it the way you want. Sounds like you did it yourself and know it was done correctly, and if anything goes wrong, you are capable of fixing it easily. You also sound like you do not like keeping things stock, and will definitely be digging in and out of the new boat, spending money and time on upgrades. Money you may have, but time you will have less of. A second child, IMO, is more than double the work. 3. Moomba really? - this will most likely anger all the moomba owners, but that xlv is no where near your SAN. The boat is wider and more storage and room to sit, but it is just as shallow, with marginally more freeboard. The wake is wide and steep, two combos that I think do not work well. It takes a lot of weight, 3000lbs to get a decent wake, but does not improve by adding more and more. It drives, more specifically, turns poorly... not important if you do not run narrow riding spots, delta, private lakes, rivers... The wake will NEVER get as good as you have in your SAN. I love your SAN wake, and I love super mellow wakes, xstar, malibus.... and I do not like the moomba wakes whatsoever.

I had an 08 XLV (same hull). The wake is NOT wide compared to a MC or a Malibu, it is narrower. It also has about doube the storage of your SANTE. I just sold my 08 and it was an excellent boat. I had 2650 lbs of HIDDEN weight which is easy by upgrading bags and this is more then enough. The wake isn't mellow, but it's not overly steep. We put 400 hours on ours and I can say there were really no compaints about the boat. Lots of rear facing seats, loved the playpen bow for kids (this was a big one for us), all hidden ballast and totally reliable. I don't know your skill level but I doubt the XLV could ever hold you back. A family will appreciate all the room that's for sure. Here is a pic of the wake I alwats post.

And it surfs better too.

just realized, the moomba I was speaking of is the lsv (20.5 feet I think) and it was on 04 or 05 that I spent a ton of time behind. Looking at the 2012 lsv's, nothing looks to have changed, but I have no experience behind a XLV of any year. sorry.

look at axis before you buy, you can get brand new for a good deal, especially if you have a good trade.

$50K seems really expensive for a 3 year old Moomba. I'd pass based on that based on price alone. If you are dead set on spending $50K, you can do better.

With a 50k budget the door is open on almost all 08 and up boats . Take your time and test drive as many as you can . I would start by getting your sant sold that way if the too good to pass up deal comes you are set to buy. I would look at the 08-09 sante 210 its much bigger than yours and has great wakes both surf and wake board and they are in that price range. Plus its a Nautique.

I used to have an xstar (205v), and felt it was too small. I thought hard about an 07 210 back in 06 and ended up going with a vlx because it had more room. I had a kid and moved up to a 230 in 07. It had tons of room. I bought two more 230s after that. Those boats are cavernous. Last year, my wife was preggo with our second child, and we really needed to start saving for a bigger house on the lake (still saving...) and I had an opportunity to buy an axis a22 at a great price, which would allow me to have it paid off. This eliminated a large boat loan that I had been carrying. It was a hard decision, because it was slightly smaller than the 230, and didn't have all of the same bells and whistles that my 230 had. After owning an a22 for a year, I can say that I do not regret my decision one bit. It has plenty of room for my family and the wake is insane. I have since sold my 11 and my 12 should be here in a few weeks. There are a lot of good boats out there in your price range, but check out an axis.

Its funny how the OP says Not looking for a "look at this instead" response, just this vs that, but people can't help but say Axis. I can't believe no one said MB yet. There are other good boats out there.

TRD, didn't the hull of the san change in 07, what do you know about that?

I know that the beam got widened from 91 to 98 inches and the wake is a little more mellow by comparison, but I have never rode one,although I have always wanted to. I fear that spending another 20ish and getting another 21 foot boat will be a regret because I want to be able to see and feel a difference in size and storage and I don't think adding 7" of beam will accomplish that.

I went and looked at the xlv again and I like it more and more every time I see it. It might be warranted taking it for a test drive and seeing if it will fit in my garage.

I have thought about the "you can get a lot of boat for 50" comments and haven't really came up with any other 23' boats I would like that would be around 50 that aren't much older than the moomba would be. Partial reason for upgrading would be to get int something newer. The first comment is spot in where I am a hands on project oriented person who would start by tearing the boat down to do my thing with it. There is something to be said about our financial position right now, no loans on the boat, small truck payment we can pay off is we wanted to, relatively low house payment, wife and I both do well financially. It makes it easier to do projects around the house or think about building the motor for the 95mustang shell I have in the garage (cracked the block last year, been down since).

This is just hard to work through, a lot of stuff in my mind about the whole thing. Keep the comments coming though, my experience with moomba is completely nothing.

Ask yourself what you would be giving up with the Moomba? It has more rear facing seats then any other 23 footer other the a 230 I think. Tons of storage both front and back (unlike a Malibu), an in floor cooler and a spot for an igloo too, lots of ballast, and most everything else you need. So if the wake is only 80% of the SAN, will that keep you from sticking 900s? For a family and kids I think the XLV is a perfect boat, at least it was for us for 4 years. I have an order for a new X30 but if my XLV didn't sell, I was happy to keep it. I'll just say this, I bet I did better on resale with this boat then 90% of people. Down 8 k in 4 years and almost 400 hours. I know my x30 will go down that much in a year or 2.

if you dont really need a new boat just keep the san. fwiw 2 years ago i picked up my 02 san with 187 hours for 26500. it was mint too.

Keep the 210...

I love my moomba xlv, mine is a loaded 08 . Sounds very similar to what you are looking at. Its a great boat, me and my brothers load all of our families on the boat with ease. The wake is good. If you can get it for a price you woud be happy with I would go for it.

http://fresno.craigslist.org/boa/2942230517.html

I didn't spend much more than your budget for an mb twb 23 last summer, brand new. Problem being that it's such a new model there just aren't many used ones out there yet.

Which is not to say that the moomba is a bad choice, just that there are newish 23's out there for 50ish.

I should say I paid about 50 for my 08 xlv gravity games brand new at the end of 08. However if you are happy with the price you can get it for, go for it.

Well your SAN has about the same hours as the Moomba,yet your willing to pay 20k diff.I would keep the SAN and use the 20k to keep it up till the kids get bigger and can really use more room because of their friends going also.The SAN is a great boat with a great wake and it sounds like you've fixed it up now.Just keep it,I had my Nautique for 15 years and still got 10k for it.That was 40% of what i paid for it.

My problem with MBs is resale. People know the name of Moomba or CC or bu. our local MB dealer has to put ads on Craigslist (kijiji in canada) and put "mastercraft, moomba, Malibu " in the adds just to get people to look at the ads. People on WW know the value of an MB but most are looking for familiar names. Not a deal breaker but still something to consider. I was considering a 23twb this year (bout 68k can) and I can garuntee you in 4 years I couldn't sell it in the 60s.

The 210 you have is very nice. People need to understand where you are coming from. You're bringing a wife, two kids, a cooler, a diaper bag, another bag with snacks, a change of clothes for the kids, your wife's purse, 6 towels, probably toys of some sort, floaties, etc. etc., all on top of your gear. You probably have family and friends that want to come out. God forbid they have kids too. Point is, an old school 210 fills up quick and you desire more space. That's totally understandable. It's becoming a necessity. Some people dont understand because they don't have kids, dont own a smallish 21 footer, or don't mind feeling cramped.

Do what's best for your family, but if you want better input from us, give us a little more to work with. What's your main priorities and in what order? Quality of wake, size, resale, warranty, dealer network, surfability, etc. Do you care about the type of tower or bimini you can get? How much interior shade do you need with those kids? What size crew do you ride with? How long do you want to keep the boat? What kind of tow rig do you have? Where are you storing the boat? Do you care how easy it is to fold the tower? Do you plan to slam your boat with weight? Will your dealer let you find a buyer for your boat and then do a buy through so that you save the trade in taxes? There have been some good boat suggestions thrown your way already, but give us some more insight.

Originally Posted by chattwake

The 210 you have is very nice. People need to understand where you are coming from. You're bringing a wife, two kids, a cooler, a diaper bag, another bag with snacks, a change of clothes for the kids, your wife's purse, 6 towels, probably toys of some sort, floaties, etc. etc., all on top of your gear. You probably have family and friends that want to come out. God forbid they have kids too. Point is, an old school 210 fills up quick and you desire more space. That's totally understandable. It's becoming a necessity. Some people dont understand because they don't have kids, dont own a smallish 21 footer, or don't mind feeling cramped.

Do what's best for your family, but if you want better input from us, give us a little more to work with. What's your main priorities and in what order? Quality of wake, size, resale, warranty, dealer network, surfability, etc. Do you care about the type of tower or bimini you can get? How much interior shade do you need with those kids? What size crew do you ride with? How long do you want to keep the boat? What kind of tow rig do you have? Where are you storing the boat? Do you care how easy it is to fold the tower? Do you plan to slam your boat with weight? Will your dealer let you find a buyer for your boat and then do a buy through so that you save the trade in taxes? There have been some good boat suggestions thrown your way already, but give us some more insight.

Thanks for the great post, the first part rings sooooo true. I will start off by hitting your questions, which were very good by the way

What's your main priorities and in what order? Quality of wake, size, resale, warranty, dealer network, surfability, etc. I would say my future may lie with size, but as of now, the most important part of a wake boat to me is the wake, however, I am willing to sacrifice some wake for convienence. quality of wake is key for wake and surf, being size and shape, but only I can really answer that as far as what I like, I will need to ride it to know if it would be to my liking. resale is nice, desirability of the boat for later sale would be nice, because face it, if no one wants it, you will have to drop the price to get it gone. Dealer network is pretty low priority as is warranty because there will probably be none with what I am looking at. Either way, unless the work is free, I typically choose to do the work myself. I would rather get the headgasket for free and replace it myself, I have seen too many hacks out there, no offence to some dealers out there. I am fanatical about engines and know more than average.

Do you care about the type of tower or bimini you can get? Not really, I will have to put it up and take it down every time I go ride, and I will almost for sure need a bimini again.

How much interior shade do you need with those kids? My guess is a decent amount, but no more than my tower biminis cover provides on my 210

What size crew do you ride with? Now, I ride with typically one or 2 others besides myself. My wife may be included in that or as a 3rd sometimes. Not counting kids of course. My crew is pretty minimal.

How long do you want to keep the boat? I said my sante would be my 10 year boat, but 6-7 would have been realistic. I am going on 2 lol. I would guess it would be that same 6-8 year span.

What kind of tow rig do you have? 2010 Ram 1500 hemi. it works well and has a tow rating of about 7k.

Where are you storing the boat? My house. My garage is 26 feet deep, 11 foot ceilings, with an 8'tall door that is 10' wide. the xlv shoud fit with the swing tounge or at the worst, the platform removed.

Do you care how easy it is to fold the tower? No, as long as I can do it myself if I need to.

Do you plan to slam your boat with weight? I would rather not, I like decent fuel economy and I am far from pro. If I find the 1450 is not enough, I could see myself setting it up with 2000 and leaving it at that. By comparison, I went from 850 to 1250 in my san with thinking of going to 1500, just because the center tank is in, and I can easily replace that with a 580 sack and get the room back, like I did with the rears.

Will your dealer let you find a buyer for your boat and then do a buy through so that you save the trade in taxes? The conversations I have had with the dealer, he seems very willing to do something along those lines for me. I am a repeat customer and we have a good working relationship.

That should be a good start, thank you very much Chat One more thing that I can add. I see this being a boat that is 40%wake 40%surf 3%ski 17%other (tube, kneeboard, ect) My skills are as follows, I slalom once or twice a year just to prove I can still get up. I surf and consider myself a moderately decent rider. I wakeboard and can tantrum, grab 180s, backroll, and some other tricks but mostly thats it. I lost my 3s over the years, and have had some bad diggers that keep me from trying much new stuff. Fear of injury with kids and a mortgage will do that to a guy. I dont see much in the way of progression in my riding other than surfing. In the future it will progress as a tubing boat with some surfing gearing up towards wakeboarding and surfing primarily (with the development in age of the kids and to make the boat fun for tham at the particular age they are at) My wife is a rec wakeboarder and same for surfer, wont be anything more than that im sure. Kids I will push to be pro, I see them as my meal ticket

There you go, a lot of info there, disect it and throw it at me. I am loving the feedback from all angles, nothing is bad

So wakeboard wake and size/storage are your main criteria? Pretty much anything is better for size and storage then the old SAN210 except the 205v and the sanger v210. I think the XlV is a great sized boat with lots of storage, deep inside for safety, good wake capabilities. I personally think 50k for a moomba is too much unless it is brand new regardless of model. Here is a list of other boats I would consider for the 50k range and less that are newer then yours.

Mastercraft Xstar 2003-2012. This boat doesn't have a ton of room for now a days standards but has more then your boat and about 10 times the storage as an old 210. The wake doesn't need an explanation.
Malibu LSV 2004-2007 or 2008 to current-great wake and bigger then your boat.
Nautique 210 or 230, 2007-current-the 230 will be hard to find and the 210 may be as well.
Moomba XLV-already mentioned
Supra 22ssv, 2007-current-good sized, easily changed ballast, nice boat, good wake but a little finicky I think.
Supra 24SSv-2005-current-Huge boat with as much space as you could want. Great wake.
Tige 22v(VE) or 24V(VE)-big deep v boat capable of a great wake with ballast. May have to add custom ballast since until recently they claimed Taps made a huge wake.
Axis A22-should be able to find a year or 2 old one for that price. Personally I think they feel cheap but they have room and wake for reasonable dollars.
MB 21TWB 23TWB and Tomcat21-2008 or 2009 to current. Deep V, lots of under the floor ballast, amazing stock wake, more room than anything in their size range and can be had for 50-60k brand new. Downfall is for the freeboard not much interior depth. Would be my choice though if I could get a brand new one for hte price of used in everything else. Great wake stock.
Epic 23-I don't know much about them but bigger and throw a huge wake stock by all acounts.

brett what about the big sangers (v230 and v237)? The v237 especially, I really haven't heard anything bad about.

the v230 wake pics that were posted yesterday look really nice... mellow rampy and big. Different than the 210 for sure though.

My problem with MBs is resale. People know the name of Moomba or CC or bu.

This is a great point. I think this will be less of a concern for the latest models (pcm, stargazer, gravity fed ballast, proven wake) than the older boats (flames, weird towers, etc), but I could definitely be wrong. I certainly expect that I'm going to need more time on the market to sell our MB than we did selling our Bu, but this one was purchased as a "last boat" so it's a keeper till we're out of the game. Time will certainly tell.

Gravity fed ballast was the top selling point for us with MB. Had that not been such a priority, the sanger v237 would've gotten a much stronger look, I think (local dealer whereas MB is two hours away). I hardly ever see a bad word about sanger. we left our 2006 vride for many of the same reasons you've outlined. Room being the primary, and surf wake and ease of setup being a close second. It was a GREAT boat and I'll always have a soft spot for it.

I read the OP's post again and wouldn't change my suggestion at all.He stated"I really don't need another boat" also he said"I currently have a absolutely mint 03 SANTE with 250ish hours". So i ask WHY does he NEED a new boat.I can't come up with a reason.So i ask what would be the responsible thing to do if you had a 18 month old and another child on the way?I've ridden in and behind a 21' SAN with 5 adults and all there gear.It wasn't cramped,but maybe 7 people would be.After the OP was fed with the you need it encouragement he stated "My crew is pretty minimal" meaning 5 at most. Two of that crew would be small children.You don't have to have children to have had couples with children on your boat. Some people think everything should be done to their way of thinking.I think the OP should do whatever he thinks is best. Just remember we are all trying to help.

So 1250 in a San is kind of light. Great wake just not huge right?
I have an 07 Moomba LSV 21'6....I treat it like a work truck and it just keeps asking for more.
Moomba's don't have the best fit and finish. But mine is comfy and it gets the job done.
The XLV is about 2 feet longer and I think a 2 inch wider beam. Not a really wide boat, so you don't need as much extra ballast to sink it. I would keep the San until it gets too small. They get great feul economy and have great wakes.I love ppl bashing Moomba's then hearing themcompliment mine on the wake.
I took a risk on a Moomba, And have no regrets.
Even San owners like my wake!!!!


Good luck with your choice and congrats on the 2nd child

I hate to be that guy who throws in another boat, but here it goes. Consider a Mastercraft X15. I picked one up last year and have absolutely loved it. It will fit in your garage, the wakeboard wake is really good, and it surfs really well. I did a quick search on Onlyinboards and there are a few that are around the 50k mark. I know your thinking "I am asking about a 23 foot boat, and this guy is telling me about a 21 and a half" but there is tons of room in them. I don't know how they did it, but they feel like they have more room then a 23 footer. Resale is also going to be pretty decent on them.

I think moombas have their place. I've never met one with a wake I considered anything but crappy; however, they are great crossover boats and great for those who aren't sure how much serious riding they'll do. I honestly cannot see anyone being happy going from a nautique to a Moomba. I'd much rather be forced to rock a 1980's 2001 than a new Moomba.

I couldn't disagree more with Reed's comments. To each their own, but to say that a newer LSV or XLV has a "crappy" wake is just plain untrue. A 10 year old Outback is a little different story. Perhaps he hasn't been on a properly setup and weighted newer Moomba, or maybe his riding is on par with the guys who ride on the tour and he requires an X-star or 230 with 5000lbs and rides at 25mph, but for 90% of the riders out there, a Moomba is a great boat. The "wakeboard Camp" uses LSV's for instruction. I doubt they would charge a premium and instruct on boats with a "crappy" wake.

I disagree as well. The wake may be a little more weight sensitive than some boats, but with a gravity3 setup @ 21-22mph it's a very nice wake. The wake isn't as wide as my a20 and is much easier to clear w2w.
They have pretty good storage (long rear lockers), and tower is easy to fold.

I think the newest one I've been in is like an 08.

I have only been in an 04 mobius xlv, lots of hours, ballast set ups, trip plate set ups...

what and when were hull changes made to the xlv's? Local dealer has moombas now, sat in a 2012 xlv and everything feels the same, even the driver helm and controls, not able to tell about the hull though, unless I had them side by side.

I'm pretty sure the change happened in08. Still kicking it around, having a hard time with it. Gonna be cold this week so a test drive will be later or this weekend. Until then, I'd be happy to keep up the dock talk about the options

Moomba updated the XLV hull in 2008, this is correct. Same hull as the 2012's. The boat hasn't changed a lot between 08-12.

Reed I had the same opinion as you......And you are the ppl I love to get out on my boat lol.
Moomba got a better hull in 05 I think on the Lsv. And no I don't have stock ballast. I run it about 3k.
I'm not saying it is as good as a San, It all depends on how you set it up. Believe it or not I have seen ppl screw up a San wake by a bad setup.
Xlv's are narrow boats so it will be sensitive side to side on ballast set up. But you should be used to that with a San already.
Was 08 the white and burgundy GG colors? If so good looking boats imho.

Oh and Reed.....I went from a 1986 2001 Nautiqe and only thing better about that boat was it was paid off!