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Old     (Lemonade)      Join Date: May 2015       06-22-2016, 9:59 AM Reply   
Hello WW,

I recently passed on a lakefront property and regret it. I've since found out that the lake has a very high alkalinity and a friend who lives on the lake has told me about issues his SAN 230 as well as a friends 22 VLX. They said that a sensor on the SAN was plugged up as well as a thermostat on the VLX being plugged up.

Now the previous owner of the property I passed on said his Moomba never had any issues related to the water. I know the easiest fix is a saltwater package, flush kit etc. I'm just curious if anyone knows how very alkaline water affects boat internals.
Old     (norcalmalibu)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-22-2016, 3:54 PM Reply   
Are you talking about salinity? I've never heard of Alkaline and just googled it and came up with nothing?
Old     (seth)      Join Date: Sep 2002       06-22-2016, 4:32 PM Reply   
Was it a calcium buildup that was clogging the sensors?
Old     (antoddio)      Join Date: Dec 2006       06-22-2016, 8:16 PM Reply   
Actually this was addressed in my Spa manual. This is obviously not a boat, but should provide a lot of insight on the matter. High Alkalinity will form lime scale. I suppose you could get one of the test scripts and put it in the lake. I think high Alkalinity may prevent zebra mussel growth...but you'll have to double check that one, it's been awhile since I read about it.

PH balance.
Getting the pH levels right is one of the most important jobs that pool chemicals have to achieve. If the pH levels get too high then the sanitisers won’t work effectively and the water will become cloudy. High pH will mean that lime scale can form, just like it does in a kettle in hard water areas, and that can damage your pump, your heater element or block your filter. High pH will even cause skin irritation in some cases. If the pH levels get too low then that also stops the sanitisers working efficiently and some metal parts of your spa – such as the heater element – may be subjected to corrosion. Ideally the water in your spa should have a pH balance somewhere between 7.2 – 7.8. Your spa supplier will be able to provide test strips which make pH a very simple thing to check and chemicals to raise or lower the pH level.

Total alkalinity.
The total alkalinity is the buffer of pH, if it is not balanced correctly, the pH test will not give you a correct reading. Total alkalinity is the ability to control pH.If the total alkalinity is too high then it becomes hard to change the pH levels in your spa, scale starts to form again, the water gets cloudy and sanitisers don’t work as well as they should. If the total alkalinity is too low then it’s hard to get the pH level to remain where you need it to be and corrosion can start to occur on metal parts of the spa. Total alkalinity is measure in Parts per Million and you want to see a reading of 80 – 120 PPM when you test the water. The levels of total alkalinity can be adjusted with the same chemicals you used to address the pH levels.

Calcium hardness.
Calcium hardness is a measure of the amount of minerals in your water including calcium and magnesium. The water in your spa needs to have some level of hardness; if the water does not have enough calcium, the water will draw from other minerals, including copper, aluminium and iron and it will get those minerals from the heating elements, pump seals and pipe work in your spa. That will result in equipment corrosion. If there is too much hardness, you will see scale formation on the spa’s interior and the water will take on a cloudy appearance.

There are test kits and strips for calcium hardness available from your Sundance dealer and if you have a low reading there are calcium booster chemicals. The level you are aiming to get would be between 100 – 250 PPM.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       06-23-2016, 6:15 AM Reply   
I boat on an alkaline lake too. We do a couple of things. First off, conventional wisdom is that you should do a freshwater flush on the hose after every trip out. We are very diligent about the engine flush. Even so I was very shocked when I pulled the thermostat housing on my old boat and found a lot of buildup (this is after about 150 hours on the alkaline lake).

I did some studying on the interwebs about this. There are some industrial scale removers that get used on ocean going vessels and the like, but I thought I'd try the cheapest and most readily available (and least dangerous/corrossive) method first: vinegar. Tested the vinegar concept on my thermostat housing first by soaking it overnight in a bucket. Here's the before and after:

before:


after:


Then I moved on to the engine block, basically pulling the drain plugs and reinstalling them, then filling from the thermostat housing like you'd do to fill with antifreeze (if you believe in antifreeze) when winterizing. I was a little shocked when it sorta turned into a science fair volcano:

Old     (Lemonade)      Join Date: May 2015       06-23-2016, 8:31 AM Reply   
I wonder what would happen if you used a Fake-aLake and had a second tube "y" in a bucket of vinegar water solution and ran the boat for a bit on something like that. WOuld it help reduce the buildup?
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       06-23-2016, 8:45 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemonade View Post
I wonder what would happen if you used a Fake-aLake and had a second tube "y" in a bucket of vinegar water solution and ran the boat for a bit on something like that. WOuld it help reduce the buildup?
I've used salt away and another salt buster product and nothing worked quite like the vinegar soak. Once a year is enough, I think, and it's not really hard to "do it right" by draining and filling.

I think using the bypass method you'd have the same problems that you'd have using that technique to winterize using antifreeze -- you'd never get all of the water out of the block and you'd end up with a diluted solution. Now the diluted vinegar solution might be enough, I dunno.
Old     (Spotless)      Join Date: May 2016       06-25-2016, 6:57 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemonade View Post
Hello WW,

I recently passed on a lakefront property and regret it. I've since found out that the lake has a very high alkalinity and a friend who lives on the lake has told me about issues his SAN 230 as well as a friends 22 VLX. They said that a sensor on the SAN was plugged up as well as a thermostat on the VLX being plugged up.

Now the previous owner of the property I passed on said his Moomba never had any issues related to the water. I know the easiest fix is a saltwater package, flush kit etc. I'm just curious if anyone knows how very alkaline water affects boat internals.
Here is why

I have worked extensively in water treatment process heat rejection field for over 25 years. The temp and the change in temp, aka delta T, is one of the most significant catalysts in the scaling tendencies of the mineral scale fouling of heat exchangers. The function of heat uniquely effects saturation and precipitation of calcium carbonate differently than any other mineral on earth. Calcium carbonate which is the main ingredient of concrete has a inverse solubility. This means that you can dissolve more calcium carbonate in cold water than in hot. For example solubility is the opposite of sugar when making hot coffee or cold tea. High dissolved calcium carbonate in water is known as hardness which is a measure of the + side of the molecule. The measure of calcium carbonate on the - side is know as alkalinity.

What this means to us riders is that when you have very high hardness and high alkalinity lake water with at 70F and is recirculated across a heat exchanger that at 140-180F, the calcium carbonate will most likely precipitate out of solution and form a concrete like scale.

Closed cooling is very beneficial in our boats for this problem because lake water only changes from 70F to 80F then discharged. Whereas, typical lake water cooling is fully or partially brought up to at least 140F within the engine depending on the thermostat, then discharged. Every 10F degrees rise in temp 2x scaling tendency.


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Last edited by Spotless; 06-25-2016 at 7:00 AM. Reason: correction
Old     (Lemonade)      Join Date: May 2015       07-11-2016, 8:17 AM Reply   
Thanks Chris. That's probably one of the best answers I've seen on this forum to date.
Old     (Lemonade)      Join Date: May 2015       07-11-2016, 12:19 PM Reply   
Will my 5.7 Black scorpion have a lot of trouble in this water (another house came up)? What could help prevent issues?

Thanks for any input.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       07-11-2016, 12:28 PM Reply   
is there strong opposition to the suggestion to just fill the block with vinegar from time to time? Cheap, effective, nontoxic.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004 Location: Tyler       07-11-2016, 1:15 PM Reply   
I don't think so. my only concern would be gaskets and seals.
according to google:
Natural rubber isn't very resistant to the acidic effects of vinegar. Silicone is very resistant to vinegar. our impellers and seals are a silicone rubber compound, i think

so new impeller and seals after the treatment would be a good idea. exhaust hose could be weakened I suppose so keep that in mind when you flush

gaskets shouldn't be affected
Old     (Spotless)      Join Date: May 2016       07-11-2016, 2:04 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
is there strong opposition to the suggestion to just fill the block with vinegar from time to time? Cheap, effective, nontoxic.
Vinegar is a very dilute acetic acid. From a cleaning aspect it is weak sauce and doesn't perform in industrial applications. I would not have any objection if you tried it and it worked as shown above. Go for it, and if it works or doesn't work it is pretty much like chicken soup and wont hurt a damn thing if properly flushed. - more later. In the industrial world we would use hydrochloric or phosphoric acid with special inhibitors that reduce corrosion rates up to 98%.

From a practical application standpoint, the key to reducing corrosion damage to system metals, seals, and gaskets is proper flushing. Let me assure you that it takes much much longer for the flush than what you think as those materials absorb the acids. Absolutely the best way to flush the system is quickly flush with clean water and then button up and go take a wakeboard set thereby getting that high alkalinity water a great chance to neutralize those acids. The last thing you want to do is flush with water and let set over the winter. Regarding environmental discharge the cardinal rule is the solution to pollution is dilution. Yes its better to send discharge to your waste water plant, I would have no problem with a little vinegar a high alkalinity lake where it would be naturally naturalized. That would be 100X better than any RV antifreeze that get dumped in our waterways, which upsets me greatly.

Last edited by Spotless; 07-11-2016 at 2:07 PM.

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