Compsand #3 and #5

Compsand #3 is Balsa skins and Balsa rails. Despite my hatred for working with this stuff (e.balsa) it sure is gorgeous...the picture doesn't do it justice.



In sanding, planing, sanding more and more and moore it's reflex properties are very evident.

WOW

Compsand #5 is going to be a knock off of the firewire construction.

http://www.firewiresurfboards.com/direct_drive.php

I hotwired a new rocker bed, and cut the outline. This board will have a marginal rocker.
It will also have a carbon rod connecting the fin boxes to carbon wrapped balsa rails and 3mm core-cell a500 skins.

The carbon tube, note the slight extension that will hit the rails.

Happy thanksgiving to everyone!

I think this is a better picture:



I even like the look of the rails on the unfinished deck:

this is what i call taken it to a higher level.this has my current vote for stik of the year.if you were close i would glass it for free.

A few things that I learned about doing the rails - BESIDES the fact that I hate working with e.balsa.

I used epoxy to join the base rail to the EPS. I wanted that to set fast, so I used a 5 min epoxy. After the base was ready, I used wood glue and built up 4 additional layers of 1/16" balsa. This took considerable time and I had to do one rail at a time.

After the 5/16" of balsa was done, I was able to attach 1/4" thick "planks" to fill out those parts of the rail that don't have much of a curve, like at the nose. 1/4" is too thick to bend around the sharp curves of the nose, 1/16" easily shaped the curves, but was way more thin than I needed to step down. I also have found 1/8" e.balsa from lonestar balsa in TX that comes in 52 inch lengths, I do believe.

I believe that I could have gone with 1/8" balsa and that would have made the build-up quicker and easier.

I attached the 1/4" stock with CA glue, but I didn't completely flood the surface, as it will attach with just a few drops. When you go to shape the rails, you will end up feathering the individual layers. If a section of a layer isn't completely glued, that area will separate and require a drop or two of CA glue to attach.

Hey Billy - we are getting temps down to the low 30's so I may ship that stick to you to laminate!

The second picture looks really nice. For a wood hater you do nice work!

I'm surprised to see a fin box to fin box connection. I thought you didn't want any lateral connection.

Hey Dennis,

You need to come down and check the e.balsa. It really looks sweet.

Thanks Ed, I really am a wood hater! I just KNOW that the stupid stuff is going to be the magic ingredient and I'll need to mess with it from now on!

The Futures boxes don't offer a lot of support, especially with the light weight 1# EPS. The folks at Futures developed their rear vector suspension system to provide an internal support for the boxes. FCS plugs connect to the bottom AND top deck and gain extra support that way.

In our small wave boards we don't want any flex, perse, under the rear foot, the flex that we want should be under the front foot. So...preventing flex of any kind at tail is good.

Now, also, this board, #5, will have perimeter rails and I intended to wrap them in carbon, so for the most part it won't have much on the way of lateral flex.

One thing that we noticed in riding a board with the Vector Suspension System is that it allows the board to ollie easier and better...mostly because of reducing the lateral flex, especially in board with thing tails. Not what the system is designed for, but...what the heck!

I just went one step further and tied it to the rails, so that pumping off the rails goes directly to the fins (in theory )

Jeff you surprising me just everytime. Tons of new great ideas again and again. Its pure hi-tec!
Verry interesting.

Jeff - the carbon tube is blowing me away. incredible!

Like the balsa look jeff. How are the rails shaped 50/50, hard edges, etc. Looking forward to your report on #5 compsand, the boards going to have flex, but wondering with the parabolic rails if it generates more pop.

Petr, thanks! None of this is my original idea, I've "borrowed" all of it Like JL was saying in another thread the projects this year are so far advanced from where we used to be - two years ago we were trying to choose between a LF or HL and now we are bagging carbon and rohacell. It's good to see the market mature.

Hey Matt, the carbon is sick isn't it? The rod REALLY tied up the lateral twist, but the tail has a LOT of flex, lengthwise. I'm considering running a short length of the rod back towards the tail. The Futures suspension system looks like a carbon ruler The V pattern ties up the entire tail. I see that FCS also offers a suspension system that doesn't connect to the boxes - my understanding is that it stiffens up the tail.

Hey 8ball, isn't the Balsa a sweet look? I HATE working with the stuff, but love the way it looks. In shaping the board, it has 10 times the reflex that the divinycell showed...probably 5 times as much as the core-cell. I'm not fond of the d-cell except if you want a very stiff board. The d-cell sucks resin like there is no tomorrow.

The rails are very hard at the tail - the tail is also vertical. I wanted to soften up the rails from about the fins forward, but got a little carried away. I used a 1/2" roundover bit in the router, with the hopes that it would leave a slight tuck, but they turned out 50/50 through the nose.

I'll keep you posted on the ride, if I ever get the thing finished!

Jeff I have seen a lot of progression in wakesurfing in this last year, You, Smedman , Big Show have your comps on your projects and its led to this good stuff. Jerry's ShredStixx with his new fin system Wake surfing mags New Wave Vehicles with their Johnny Steig & Josh Buran models with multi fin & tail combos progression is here and not going away It looks that 08 will be be big for wakesurfing lets get a shoot set up for 08

Hey JL, we'd love to do a shoot. You and your crew are always welcome if you make it up this way.

I'd think that you've seen first hand how things progress in the ocean surfing industry...often times backyarders like Matt E, Matt S, Petr, Ed S and myself develop something crazy that a production house makes pretty and refines production methods to make them profitable...like you point out, it really seems like this winter has seen some substantial increases in technology employed behind the boat. Can't wait to see what the '08 season brings.

Top skin is in the bag!

Compsand #5 trimmed and ready for e.balsa. I used a laminate trimming bit (with a bearing) in a router for this step. I only got close, then easily sanded the rest flush with the EPS core.

The base section of e.balsa attached. This design will have the rails covered with carbon, so I don't need to be as cosmetically accurate. The Core-cell is semi transparent...the folks at Firewire paint the core-cell white, so I'll do that also.

Compsand #3 - all Balsa epidermous - the deck layer still has 3.761 lifetimes left of sanding , but it certaily looks good so far. Have I mentioned that I hate wood?

I really hope that your best work involves a lot of wood

not sure if any one is interested, but i thought i would post it any way considering it is the board that all these ideas started with. i have a 5'10" quad fin fireWire for sale brand new never used.surf the quad a few inches shorter than your normal shortboard. i need money for a dirt bike so im selling it for 600 with bag and fins. retail is 700 before tax. if your interested let me know.

Ed, are you wishing me 3.761 lifetimes or just that amount of misery?

Sanded through 220. I had planned to go thru 320, but: stab me with a fork, I'm DONE!

I'm contemplating letting Dennis take it to be glassed professionally. Without a hotbox I just don't have the temperature to set the epoxy off. So...it's either a professional glassing or build a hotbox.

Top:



Bottom:

Nice

looking great jeff! wow! i love it!

why the need for a hotbox? are you using TAP epoxy? does it need high temp due to the balsa? on the RR there are guys that use oven for curing, but GLoehr (who created the stuff) says it doesn't need it.

(Message edited by smedman on November 27, 2007)

Thanks guys,

All the room temperature epoxies will cure without an external heat source...but I have no heat out in the shop and we've had temps down into the 20's. There isn't any epoxy that effectively cures below 40. I was planning on doing the final exterior lamination outside of the bag - inside the bag I can just toss the electric blanket over the whole deal, but... it only raises the temp by about 20 or so degrees. What I'm concerned with, knowing how evil balsa is, is that I would go to laminate and the temp would drop to 19 and it would be a mess.

Most epoxies do best with heat either during the cure or a post cure - specifically at temps HIGHER than the intended use ambient temperature...which would, for me, be above 110 degrees. I have no way of achieving that without a hotbox.

ahh jeff, that makes sense. forgot how cold it is out there...

as the temperature drops out here, i'm also working on a solution for winter glassing, but requires a delicate conversation with the wife...

You southern boys still have reasonable temperatures. So are you buying her diamonds or a Mercedes?

I've been in a few local shops and watched their processes. Tossing the epoxy in a microwave for about 15 seconds before the lamination kicks the stuff almost immediately - plus it lowers the viscosity. That will work for me to apply the epoxy. Also, creating a simple oven like device with a few incandescent lights will allow the temperature to be maintained at 100+ degrees. I can't remember the name of it right now, but it's basically a temperature switch that works inside an oven, reaches a preset temp then shut the electricity off until it drops below a certain temp.

I may actually build one, just to share the "tech".

what are you talking about reasonable temps? i had frost on my windshield yesterday... ha ha!

we'll see what it takes with the wife...hopefully doesn't cost that much...

the hotbox sounds cool - look forward to seeing that project report.

johnson control

Thermostat! It came to me - thanks for the nudge Salty

As Salty pointed out - this is an example of the device. It has a sensing unit that gets placed in the box, the 120 V heat source plugs into the receptacle of the control, which plugs into the wall.

A dial on the control allows you to set the heat range and it turns the electricty to the heat source on and off. A quick and easy method would be to buy one of those cheap space heaters with a fan from Walmart, build a box from insulation materials (foil backed foam), connect the space heater to the thermostat and set it to "CURE NOW"

http://www.infraredheaters.com/kt-121ah.htm

anybody ever use warvel blanks , i know they are on the east coast.

Bagging the top external lamination. Note the 2" thick piece of EPS board under the plastic sheeting, I am using for "insulation" It'll become a wakesurfer later.

I wound up having to bag the Balsa because apparently the Balsa outgassing something terible under a normal lamination. The experts seem to disdain the use of consumables, but then end up creating devices that serve the same purpose. Anyway, I used perforated release film and bleeder both top and bottom of the board.

The external glass is 4 oz S glass. The rails lapped easily, but we'll see what it looks like out of the bag in the morning...I may need to grind them off.

I used Resin Research 2100 F hardener and Aditive F. The Additive F cautioned that it contained Xylene which is a solvent and is frequently used to thin epoxy, especially penetrating epoxies.

I have enough e.Balsa on order to build two additional boards. If this board doesn't drive me insane, or kill me, I think that I will pre-make the external skins.

What I will do is lay out the e.Balsa on a flat 1# density EPS board, wet out some 2 oz glass and then bag that, under heat, to create a prefeabricated skin. Then, the external glass will already be done when I bag that piece to the composite core.

From a production standpoint, I would think that a high school kid could manufacture a bunch of these and a fabricator would just grab two, trim them and then bag both top and bottom in a single pull. Out of the bag, all that would be remaining is to lap some tape on the rails.

The epoxy has darkened the wood substantially, but now the seams match, in color, the entire surface.

One layer of 4 oz S on top. Again the picture doesn't do it justice. Out of the bag it's STUNNING! It looks like it has a gloss coat. There are a few areas where excess resin "pooled" down along the rail that needs to be knocked off, but maybe in total it's 2 inches.

I just weighed it and it's a shade under 44 oz...it's still under 3 pounds. So a rough estimate, is that it will be a sub-4 pound board when finished.



(Message edited by surfdad on November 28, 2007)

That is really nice.

Back on line. Love the look and progress.

dang jeff. that looks pretty good. cant wait to see the firewire version.

Thanks guys. I hope to finish the bottom this evening. Then I have to build that hotbox so that I can do the hotcoat.

Hey Johnny, I need to build the rails up still. I absolutely hate that part...all those individual layers - seems to take me ages. Hopefully I'll get some work in on it over the next few days.

I found an interesting experiment on dissolving EPS:

http://www.usc.edu/CSSF/History/2006/Projects/S0815.pdf

I can't remember who posted it originally in the Compsand thread - but the individual indicated that gasoline would dissolve EPS. I have tried with Acetone and apparently there are issues with Acetone dissolving EPS. The results I got were crap...so I erroneoulsy assumed that all solvents in a small space would render the same results. My apologies to whomever for the dismissal.

I'm going to go back and try some additional solvents - not sure about gasoline and/or xylene or any other flammable liquid, but I could do lemon oil without issue

Anyway...we were talking about building a hollow carbon board. The molding process seems like too much of a pain, especially for a single board. However, if I could build put an EPS cored board and dissolve it after a carbon skin was attached, that would be very interesting.

I have read repeatedly that foam (any kind, anywhere), inside carbon, deadens the ride compared to a hollow carbon skinned board.

So, I may experiment with a schedule that looks like this:

2 oz glass
5.7 oz Carbon
1/8" e.balsa end grain mat (kontourcore or balsalite)
5.7 oz carbon

Probably e.balsa rails (my fav!)

The EPS core would be next, but dissolved after construction.

In this way I don't have the mold to deal with OR seams to split.

A visual of the above schedule:

yeah jeff - i think i suggested we see who could build an "aviso" - like ( www.avisosurf.com) hollow carb fiber board... but you said it would be too messy/hard to dissolve the foam... as for the gasoline comment, i think you might be referring to someone else.

anyway, for me it was a bit of a joke... but of course i won't be surprised to see a hollow CF board from you soon.

I haven't been able to locate any lemon oil or xylene Just testing with what I had at home.

Odorless Mineral Spirits
Acetone
Unleaded Gasoline

The Mineral spirits did nothing. The Acetone did as I have experienced, disolved the EPS almost instantly and left a goo that sticks and can't be poured out of a container...in fact gravity seems to have no impact on it.

The gasoline seems to soften the EPS, but after 1/2 hour I don't see how that will dissolve and pour out.

The test results:



This is what the EPS with Acetone looked like after 15 seconds



I placed a piece of EPS in a small cup and saturated it with the three solvents I had. Only the Acetone dissolved it fully, but it left it as a goo that doesn't pour. This picture is after I dug it out with a toungue depressor, this is after it has been held upside down for about 3 - 5 minutes.

Interestingly enough, the EPS chunk for the test I performed last night with the gasoline is gone, the chunk used for the mineral spirits is in the same location. It could be that it blew away, or it could be that it dissolved, just after a considerably longer time. At the 1/2 hour and 1 hour mark the EPS soaked in gasoline was in it's original shape, but soft. I'll do another test with gas and EPS this evening in a closed and sealed container.

you may want to try PB blast if you want to melt EPS...

http://www.pbblaster.com/store/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=1

Compsand #3 is completely glassed, IMO he epoxy and glass over the wood gives it a deep rich tone.

The current weight is a shade under 3 pounds. It still needs a hotcoat and fin boxes. I think that I want to apply a little bit of paint, just to personalize itm but mostly leaving the all wood appearance. I believe that it will still weigh it at under 4 pounds.

Thanks Mars, I do believe I have some of that in the shop.

JEff It just keeps looking better and better!

Thanks Ed, I'm hoping to get it finished this weekend...but I wouldn't hold your breath.

I went back and tested the melting of EPS with gasoline. Somewhere between 1 and 3 hours, the gas turned the EPS into the same blob of goo that Acetone did in under a minute. So the Gasoline does in fact melt the EPS, but it doesn't liquify it. I think that is what is going to be needed to get an EPS core out of a Carbon shell.

Just a thought:
Another way to create a large air void space in a carbon frame and increase structural strength might be to get your hands on some OEM carbon tubes such as might be used in bike frames-skip the eps alltogether. cut them into cylindes approximating the desired thickness of the board. don't know if resined carbon mat rolls would be strong enough to sub for the tubes.
Start with your "floor" of carbon mat and use the cylinders of carbon as pillars and glue them in-later adding the "roof". probably would need pillars all the way around the edge as "walls". the spacing between pillars would determine stiffness. if the pillars were glued to each other a-la lattice it would be stiff indeed-use this where the fins attach.
Another option might be to lay the tubes side to side like stringers and glue them together-might be a touch heavier and difficult to add rocker though...

use sun cure resin to dissolve it..apply in the dark,after its ate up what ya need,stick it in the sun.should cure up on the inside.wait till summers hot temps come back,i bet gravity will have more effect.

Thanks Mars and Billy,

In both of the solvent tests, the dissolved EPS sank to the bottom. With the gasoline the eps, while still goo, didn't stick to the container. With the Acetone, the goo stuck to the container like there was no tomorrow. I wonder if it would be possible to fill the board with a solvent and then after a few hours turn it upside down and see how much will drain out of a vent plug sized hole.

Probably worth a test. I could use some old glass up, laminate a chunk and when cured, drill a hole into the core and try pouring solvent in. The gasoline seems to be better at this than the Acetone in that the resulting goo didn't stick to the container.

Onward!

Back to e.balsa and theory for a moment. I am of the opinion that for the size wakes that we are dealing with we want "moderate" flex under the front foot for "new school" tricks. Flex under the rear foot is for us old farts. Not everyone agrees and I have yet to fully test the concept, so we'll see.

On the e.balsa compsands, I've run the sheets parallel and lengthwise with the board. This orientation offers the least amount of flex, everything else being the same.

The sheets can be oriented in a number of fashions. Diagonally left to right, right to left and in what I want to call a herrignbone manner - angled in from each rail and meeting at the centerline of the board.

Typically, most of us spend the majority of our time on one side of the boat or the other. Most of us also spend the majority of our time riding front side.

In the ocean they don't have a darkside instead waves break left or right. The orientation is always in reference to the surfer on the wave.

If we assume that a board is to be made for a rider that typical rides rights, it would be easy to see that we wouldn't want the flex of the board to be equal on both rails. Predominantly, IMO, we'd want a moderate couter-clockwise rotation under the front foot/nose area of the board. Further, we want proportionatly more flex on the bottom than the top. To encourage or increase flex in the nose of a board that is predominantly ridden on rights we would orient the sheets in the nose of the bottom sheets running high right to low left if we could see through the deck of the board to the bottom skin. It will be just reverse looking at the bottom.

This is a quick visual of what I am TRYING to explain, this would be a visual of the oriention looking at the bottom sheeting:

By angling the orientation of the sheets in various parts of the board, we can induce greater flex in that area. Nose, mid or tail...I would guess even mid through nose and mid through tail. Changing the direction of the diagonal can tailor the board specifically for port or darkside. I also believe that using different wood other than e.balsa can provide different ride characteristics. For example combining e.balsa with cedar or whatever combination seemed to be appropriate.

All laid out ready for lamination

Jeff,
Got your oven ready to put together. Dishnetwork ch 193 has a surfboard design segment now

Thanks 'bro. I know that folks talk about preheating the e.balsa to get better penetration of the epoxy. The box could be used for that also.

Jeff, I asked a polymer materials specialist about thinning epoxy so that it would penetrate cardboard more readily.

He said that acetone or methyl-ethyl ketone (MEK) would thin the epoxy. These are very volatile and would evaporate out in a reasonably fast time frame after escorting the epoxy into the cardboard. They are also very flammable with vapors heavier than air – use only in the proverbial well ventilated areas away from appliances, water heaters, furnaces, etc.

The same should work for penetrating w.balsa.

w.balsa? or just a typo? Yeah, I've heard the same thing about xylene. I've noticed that when I turn the vacuum up to about 18 inches at the pump and keep everything warm, I get bleed thru of the epoxy on the really thin 1/16" e.balsa. The solvents are "supposed" to weaken the epoxy...I read an article, but didn't fully understand all the details. One of the issues, THOUGH, was that mixing certain solvents into the epoxy with lamination layers would result in cosmetic issues (like fish eyes) on hotcoat layers.

Dennis is building me a hot box and I think that for the thickness I am using I'll be ok. I'm bagging the diagonal nose skin as I type this so, I'll check the bleed thru when it's cured...although I went light on the epoxy because I want this skin to be flexy, rather than stiff from a complete epoxy impregnation.

I'm also curing a hotcoat with a super duper uber-ghetto oven sdugo for short

jeff,you should talk to benny at bear surfboards in O B.this guy has a glassin table with a truck inner tube fixed to the underside of the table to be able to get the same rocker every time using psi.its sweet.plus this guy specializes in 10 foot guns and paddle boards..5 footers would be a cake walk if you guys got together.

w.balsa = Wonderful balsa

You poor sick man. Have you talked with your doctor about this? With the miracles of modern medicine you don't have to suffer any longer.

Like you've never sanded a surf board before!

The wood is much worse.

I finished the hotcoat on the top. I don't believe that I will do a gloss coat on the top because we use so much traction.

That board crys out for huladeck

I wanted to pre-fabricate the diagonal nose skin, to see what it would be like in a production environment. I was able to trim and true the edges in about 30 minutes. I have developed some "tools" (sandpaper glued to angle aluminum ) that made quick work of this step.

I then taped up and assembled the pieces in about 25 to 30 minutes. I cut and laid up the 2 oz glass and placed it into the bag in about an hour. I would think that a skilled worker making a standard template could have the whole process into the bag in an hour.

Now I did have a significant problem. I bagged onto a piece of 1.5 # EPS, all went well and so I covered it with an electric blanket and left ot to cook.

During the few hours it was cooking, the EPS bent and created slack in the bag. That slack then allowed some creases to develop and I got resin veins on the surface. I can save it with a ton of sanding - but the lesson learned is to make sure you bag to something stiff.

Hey Dennis - Hula would be a good idea.

I also wanted to see what the bleed through would be to the back.

There was significant bleed thru on certain pieces of e.balsa, all of the pieces had some bleed thru, but the denisty of each piece varied so much that it affected the bleed thru. My guess is that the density of the wood is related to porosity.

I am going to leave the tape on the bottom as that will be under the deck and not seen.

You can make the w.balsa more uniform by pre-treating with sanding sealer.

Hula Deck is a style of tracking pad?

Thanks Ed. I wanted good penetration into the e.balsa, just not complete saturation. Others actually strive to get complete saturation such that the skin is hard. A cheater coat of epoxy will also achieve the same thing.

Ed,
Hula Deck is a clear traction.

Back to the hollow carbon board. I was at Lowe's when they opened this morning I bought a gallon of Xylene to replicate the test I linked above.

Xylene completely liquifies the EPS. I was able to pour out the solution and found no visible trace of EPS. No goo, or lumps. The other solvents dissolved the EPS but left some residual, however minimal. So...that would seem to be the ticket to eliminate the foam from inside the board.

One of the original founders of Hydro Epic talked about foam in ANY capacity deadened the responsiveness of the hollow carbon boards. Dissolving the foam seems doable, except for the thin layer that will have the epoxy in it from the lamination. So...I have sealed with with epoxy and microballons, but I would think to completely eliminate the foam in this process would require that the EPS be fully sealed with spackle.

I just wanted to share some secrets on an epoxy hotcoat. In using the bag for the lamination, you really don't have an issues with bubbles or fisheyes. The pressure from the bag pushes everything out. The hotcoat, of course doesn't get the benefit of the pressure.

In MY experience the ket to avoiding bubbles or fisheyes in the epoxy hotcoat is making sure everything to be covered is clean AND then to make sure the hotcoat is thin.

So my procedure, using RR epoxy is as follows:

I sand the lamination coat with 220 or 400 and blow it off with a compressor or dust it off with a paper towel. I've had issues with tack rags and also using denatured alchohol to wipe the surface down.

I keep my epoxy and additives at room temperature, usually I bring them in to a heated room the night before. Make sure the additive F hasn't solidified. A bit of heat and a shake will fix it.

I measure out the resin component of the RR and let it sit for a few minutes, then I heat it in the microwave for 20 seconds. The heat will make the resin less viscous. Then I measure out the hardener and additive F. Use the 2 cc per ounce of hardener as recommended. I also splash a tiny bit of denatured alcohol in the mix.

Next I mix very slowly, so as not to induce much in the way of air bubbles. Once the epoxy and additives are thouroughly mixed, I let it sit. Not for long, but long enough to allow the air bubbles to reach the surface. The epoxy in the bucket will kick if left too long, so keep an eye on it and watch for the air bubbles to escape the mixture.

Next I use a foam brush for applying it. I know that EVERYONE says you have to use a bristle brush, but I have had no issues with the cheapy foam brushes for doing the hotcoat and I don't have to chase dropped bristles.

Next I pour the entire contents on a lengthwise pass with the brush. I do just one pass lengthwise. Then I brush everything widthwise. Finally I do a single pass nose to tail to finish up.

You don't want too much epoxy, that has been one of my problems in the past. Too thick and you'll get air bubbles and craters.

That's my methododology! For what it's worth.

Jeff,
Here is your Christmas present ...... A toaster oven

LOLOLOLOL!!!! So I put 2 boards in the top, pull down the handle and when they pop out they are cured and ready to surf?

We will call the boards POP TARTS instead of pop outs

Too funny Dennis.

Well, all that's left on the e.Balsa board is to grind the fin boxes flush. Hopefully, I'll get it wet this weekend.



Notice that it looks a LOT like wood flooring?

Looks like this?


It's really a nice looking board I hope it meets your expectations. Worst case it will look good over the mantle. I have my ole classical guitar hanging on a peg on the wall in the family room, it looks good there. Wood tones just look good to the eye.