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Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       03-06-2017, 8:04 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by plhorn View Post
31% of the Trump presidency has been spent at Mar-a-lago.

You Republicans that complained about obama playing golf have anything to say. Bunch of hypocrites.
TBH, I think the country would be better served if he spent 100% of his time there
Old    deltahoosier            03-07-2017, 9:37 AM Reply   
HAHAHAHHAHA........ Still your President. Carry on.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       03-07-2017, 10:01 AM Reply   
So.... initial thoughts on Trumpcare? Is it the fix for Obamacare or just Obamacare lite?
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-07-2017, 10:06 AM Reply   
Repeal/Replace == Tweak.
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       03-07-2017, 10:42 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by plhorn View Post
31% of the Trump presidency has been spent at Mar-a-lago.

You Republicans that complained about obama playing golf have anything to say. Bunch of hypocrites.
31% of his time there and STILL manages to get way more done than Obummer! I'd call that a win. What a great example of how/why we need more private sector folks in office like it was originally intended to be. Thanks for asking.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-08-2017, 2:50 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
31% of his time there and STILL manages to get way more done than Obummer! I'd call that a win. What a great example of how/why we need more private sector folks in office like it was originally intended to be. Thanks for asking.
What exactly has he accomplished this far in his presidency? Obamacare was supposed to be repealed on day 1. He was supposed to do something about China manipulating their currency on day 1. He has made claims on Twitter (3,000,000 illegal votes, Obama tapped his phones), but has not offered a sliver of evidence.
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       03-08-2017, 8:01 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
What exactly has he accomplished this far in his presidency? Obamacare was supposed to be repealed on day 1. He was supposed to do something about China manipulating their currency on day 1. He has made claims on Twitter (3,000,000 illegal votes, Obama tapped his phones), but has not offered a sliver of evidence.
https://townhall.com/columnists/john...ffice-n2287565
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       03-08-2017, 9:20 AM Reply   
So.... basically nothing.
Old     (plhorn)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-08-2017, 9:54 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
What exactly has he accomplished this far in his presidency? Obamacare was supposed to be repealed on day 1. He was supposed to do something about China manipulating their currency on day 1. He has made claims on Twitter (3,000,000 illegal votes, Obama tapped his phones), but has not offered a sliver of evidence.
Asking Markj for concrete facts that go beyond hitting "I feel lucky" on a google search... Good luck with that!
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       03-08-2017, 11:17 AM Reply   
I have concluded that pretty much all of my political postings and views are worthless. Because no matter what I say or think, or no mater what lies or facts are posted someone will always have a counter reality or argument and unless your willing to try and understand & work with the other side nothing is ever gonna change. So I have decided to keep my views and opinions to myself and from this point forward. I will stick to things I'm good at like spelling, grammar & DIY projects. Peace out Political peeps it's been fun, I hope to see you in other threads that are more positive and constructive.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       03-08-2017, 1:03 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by grant_west View Post
I have concluded that pretty much all of my political postings and views are worthless. Because no matter what I say or think, or no mater what lies or facts are posted someone will always have a counter reality or argument and unless your willing to try and understand & work with the other side nothing is ever gonna change. So I have decided to keep my views and opinions to myself and from this point forward. I will stick to things I'm good at like spelling, grammar & DIY projects. Peace out Political peeps it's been fun, I hope to see you in other threads that are more positive and constructive.
G -- you and I are never going to see eye-to-eye about politics. We can both argue till we're blue in the face and never persuade one another.

But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. Even if I've never "won" an argument with you, I have gotten to understand where you are coming from, in a way that no media outlet will ever be able to explain.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       03-08-2017, 11:57 PM Reply   
Don't leave us G, the point isn't to convince anyone else, it is to better understand yourself. Just have fun doing it
Old     (plhorn)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-09-2017, 8:06 AM Reply   
G, The reason I come to this forum is to understand how the other side thinks, I don't agree with you but its important to understand where you are coming from. I'm hoping that we can all move a tiny bit closer to the middle as time goes on.
I wouldn't mind seeing the word "libtard" alot less though....
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       03-09-2017, 9:44 AM Reply   
I'm not going anywhere and I'm definitely not going away mad, just avoiding the Mosh pit. Ya know the typical conversations we are supposed to avoid "Politics/Religion" I just feel my political contributions are not positive so why am I so called "stirring the pot" I would rather contribute in a positive way, keep my mind focused towards creating things not ridicule and arguments. Try and talk/post more about things we have more in common. Like I said just more subjects on a positive vibe.
Old     (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-09-2017, 10:35 AM Reply   
Well, that didn't take long! U.S. troops have just entered Syria! Anyone know how well this is going to go?
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       03-09-2017, 12:27 PM Reply   
Seriously - honest question - how the hell are these republican congressmen so stupid? Paul Ryan who is supposed to not only be reasonably intelligent, but who has supposedly been working on a plan for SEVEN YEARS to repeal/replace/fix/tweak/whateverthe****youwanttocallit the ACA comes out today and says:

“The whole idea of Obamacare is … the people who are healthy pay for the people who are sick. It’s not working, and that’s why it’s in a death spiral.”

First of all, it's not in a death spiral (maybe he needs a dictionary) - and second of all, uh this is how insurance WORKS. It's unfortunate he's such an idiot because he actually brought up a few legit issues with ACA (unfortunately his plan does nothing to address them). Sad!
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       03-09-2017, 12:40 PM Reply   
All of the morons in Congress know that there is no way to cover everyone who's sick doing the things the way we are and have been. But there is no way they can be honest about it. Sanders is the only one that is being honest when he says we need to pattern our HC after all the other modern industrialized nations that have universal HC. Leaving poor people to die on the streets is only a realistic option for a third world country or an idiocracy. We're not a 3rd world country but we sure seem to be heading towards the latter.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-09-2017, 12:54 PM Reply   
I have not spent much time thinking about health care, but...

It seems the payment side is easy: spread the costs of the few to the many. Shared costs. Simple stuff.

So, IMO, the expense side is the real problem. The costs are crazy and nothing seems to be able to hold the costs down. Meanwhile, fancy hospitals are springing up around my area like crazy so the health care providers appear to be doing very well.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       03-09-2017, 1:03 PM Reply   
Hospitals and pharmaceuticals are doing great because the govt has been throwing money at them without adequate cost controls. Everyone who paid attention to the housing market knows what easy money does to prices. Doctors aren't the problem. Their revenue is pretty much controlled by hospitals that suck up all the cash.
Old     (plhorn)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-10-2017, 10:31 AM Reply   
Trump taking credit for Obama's economy is like someone inheriting millions from his dad then bragging about what a great businessman he is.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-10-2017, 11:03 AM Reply   
Quote:
Trump taking credit for Obama's economy is like someone inheriting millions from his dad then bragging about what a great businessman he is.
Hurts to be losing. So many libtards heads will explode as Trump becomes one of the best presidents in US history.

Last edited by diamonddad; 03-10-2017 at 11:03 AM. Reason: x
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       03-10-2017, 11:26 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by plhorn View Post
Trump taking credit for Obama's economy is like someone inheriting millions from his dad then bragging about what a great businessman he is.
Um. The economy has taken off since Obamas vacancy. Business as well as consumer confidence indexs are way up and money is moving.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       03-10-2017, 2:08 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
Um. The economy has taken off since Obamas vacancy. Business as well as consumer confidence indexs are way up and money is moving.
Very true. But all of that economic activity is really based on nothing more than a layer of optimism over existing regs and policies. It's certainly not based on any actual policy activity on the part of the Trump admin, because there hasn't been any, at least not anything substantive.

I guess he did bring the unemployment rate down from 42% to 5%, so there's that.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-10-2017, 6:17 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
Um. The economy has taken off since Obamas vacancy. Business as well as consumer confidence indexs are way up and money is moving.
It was "taking off" long before Obama left office.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       03-10-2017, 8:28 PM Reply   
Ridiculous lol. $30 million so Melania can live in New York (not to mention the millions spent every weekend on Trump playing in Florida) and thanks to the hiring freeze (once again, Trump and his fellow buffoons using a sledgehammer instead of a scalpel) military families are getting screwed:

http://www.politicususa.com/2017/03/...hild-care.html
Old     (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-12-2017, 12:20 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by plhorn View Post
I wouldn't mind seeing the word "libtard" alot less though....
Usually when I see the word "libtard" I see the word "TrumpTard" in the next post!
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       03-12-2017, 4:14 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeshmoe View Post
Usually when I see the word "libtard" I see the word "TrumpTard" in the next post!
"TrumpTard" LOL Haven't seen that one.
Old     (plhorn)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-13-2017, 3:02 PM Reply   
The long awaited congressional report came out and the result is that Fourteen million Americans will lose their health insurance under Trumpcare. Surprising no-one with two brain cells to rub together.

Let see how they spin a GOP majority congressional report as "Fake news" . What a bunch of A-holes
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       03-13-2017, 3:11 PM Reply   
They can't even sell the piece of crap to their own party. Also I ready 24 million, not 14.

Last edited by pesos; 03-13-2017 at 3:13 PM.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       03-13-2017, 4:07 PM Reply   
Ah I see.

14 million more uninsured in 2018.
21 million more uninsured by 2020.
24 million more uninsured by 2026.
Old     (plhorn)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-13-2017, 5:28 PM Reply   
I just hope they don't pass that garbage because of the "its my team" mentality.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       03-13-2017, 5:50 PM Reply   
The Republican Healthcare plan... "Get rich or die trying".. Also dubbed "WhyshouldiCare"
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       03-13-2017, 7:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by pesos View Post
Ah I see.

14 million more uninsured in 2018.
21 million more uninsured by 2020.
24 million more uninsured by 2026.
fake news. WH says 26 million.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...e-house-236019
Old     (plhorn)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-13-2017, 8:08 PM Reply   
24 million people losing insurance is roughly equivalent to the population of:
VT
AL
ND
SD
DE
MT
RI
ME
NH
ID
WV
NE
NM
KS
WY
Old     (plhorn)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-13-2017, 8:10 PM Reply   
I've noticed that the Trumpers are really quiet lately... He's getting harder to defend.
Old     (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-13-2017, 8:14 PM Reply   
Unfortunately, the Federal Government is in the health care business now, so it's a no-win situation for most of us. Before it passed, my wife and I had good, affordable insurance. Now, it's garbage. The three choices (gold, silver, and bronze) limits options and have done little, if anything, to reduce the cost of health care. The statistics quoted always overlook and fail to mention the people who once had insurance and now do not; plus no one ever includes people, like me, whose insurance has been turned into toilet paper. On the bright side, I do know one person with preexisting condition, largely brought on by smoking, who now has health insurance. Next up, the single payer system.
Old     (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-13-2017, 8:25 PM Reply   
Trump is working to keep his promises and nothing good happens overnight. Everyone like a good poll. Here's one http://www.newsmax.com/Politics/Poll.../28/id/776000/
Old     (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-13-2017, 8:44 PM Reply   
I apologize for all of the typos. Tired eyes.
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       03-13-2017, 11:35 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by plhorn View Post
I've noticed that the Trumpers are really quiet lately... He's getting harder to defend.
No .........a majority here are just too stupid , blind, and ignorant to keep replying too. All you do is bitch and complain........never answer questions put forth for a logical discussion. You just don't deserve our time , Simple as that .

People want healthcare. Get a job that offers it or pay it like everyone else. A majority of us are tired of footing the bill for laziness and letting others spend our money.

Much like everyone doesn't deserved to make the same money , some people don't deserve my money for their healthcare

Last edited by xstarrider; 03-13-2017 at 11:44 PM.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       03-14-2017, 12:29 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by xstarrider View Post
People want healthcare. Get a job that offers it or pay it like everyone else. A majority of us are tired of footing the bill for laziness and letting others spend our money.

Much like everyone deserved to make the same money , some people don't deserve my money for their healthcare
The way i look at it if you don't look after these people and you create an under class of sick people who are unemployable then it just shows up later in crime and imprisonment statistics which society ends up baring the costs of anyway. It's far better to look after these people with some compassion because the social and economic cost ends up being less. Plus you feel better as a person when have a softer attitude towards your fellow man.
Old     (plhorn)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-14-2017, 8:31 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by xstarrider View Post
No .........a majority here are just too stupid , blind, and ignorant to keep replying too. All you do is bitch and complain........never answer questions put forth for a logical discussion. You just don't deserve our time , Simple as that .
By all means put forth a logical argument for Trumpcare a system that costs more, insures 18M less people in the first year and gives a tax break to the super rich.

I'm all ears.
Old     (stanfield)      Join Date: Mar 2004       03-14-2017, 9:01 AM Reply   
Pretty sure the only argument is that it's not Obamacare?
Old    deltahoosier            03-14-2017, 10:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph View Post
The way i look at it if you don't look after these people and you create an under class of sick people who are unemployable then it just shows up later in crime and imprisonment statistics which society ends up baring the costs of anyway. It's far better to look after these people with some compassion because the social and economic cost ends up being less. Plus you feel better as a person when have a softer attitude towards your fellow man.
There already is a system in place. It is called the county hospital. It has been there for years.

If we are talking social contracts, I know quiet a few people who sit around smoking pot all day. Some of them do have small part time jobs but are held back by their lack of drive. What about their contribution to the social contract? It swings both ways.
Old    deltahoosier            03-14-2017, 10:23 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by plhorn View Post
By all means put forth a logical argument for Trumpcare a system that costs more, insures 18M less people in the first year and gives a tax break to the super rich.

I'm all ears.
You mean like we have to pass it to see what is in it? Those types of logical arguments? What is insurance when people can not afford to use it. The "insurance" was a catistrophic at best to help hospitals socialize costs. Had nothing to do with the individual. At best it was a give away to businesses so they can not choose to cover employees but instead put them over to the exchanges. Except for major providers were starting to back out of the exchanges.

Then we can talk about people who still could not afford the health care and were getting fined yearly.

Artificially putting money into a sector has never made anything cheaper. EVER. Anytime you make a plan, you are going to have winners and losers. I guess how much do you want to the middle class to cover on their backs.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       03-14-2017, 10:38 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
Artificially putting money into a sector has never made anything cheaper. EVER. Anytime you make a plan, you are going to have winners and losers. I guess how much do you want to the middle class to cover on their backs.
It's the middle class and wealthy that are getting that "artificial money". Love to see what would happen if the govt stopped the tax deductions and employers said... "go buy it yourself, not our responsibility". That would be the "start" of a free market. But it's too late for that.

Oh and yeah we can't fix our HC system as long as you know a few guys that smoke pot and don't do much.
Old    TheWakeIsReal            03-14-2017, 11:41 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by xstarrider View Post
No .........a majority here are just too stupid , blind, and ignorant to keep replying too. All you do is bitch and complain........never answer questions put forth for a logical discussion. You just don't deserve our time , Simple as that .

People want healthcare. Get a job that offers it or pay it like everyone else. A majority of us are tired of footing the bill for laziness and letting others spend our money.

Much like everyone doesn't deserved to make the same money , some people don't deserve my money for their healthcare
In slave times, were the democrats for or against big government? You've been dodging that one for weeks.
Old    deltahoosier            03-14-2017, 12:36 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWakeIsReal View Post
In slave times, were the democrats for or against big government? You've been dodging that one for weeks.
democrats were for keeping people enslaved through government mandate just as they do now. Label it big or small government if you want.
Old    deltahoosier            03-14-2017, 12:39 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
It's the middle class and wealthy that are getting that "artificial money". Love to see what would happen if the govt stopped the tax deductions and employers said... "go buy it yourself, not our responsibility". That would be the "start" of a free market. But it's too late for that.

Oh and yeah we can't fix our HC system as long as you know a few guys that smoke pot and don't do much.
Nope. don't try and turn what I said. I was commenting on his taking care of an underclass. They are taken care of through the county hospital system and as far as "doing the right thing", it cuts both ways. People only want the producers to "take care" of people. How about those needing to be taken care of chipping in as much as they can?
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       03-14-2017, 12:48 PM Reply   
Who's turning what you said? Using tax revenue and rules that encourage employers to buy HI is a subversion of the free market and is inflationary. The bottom line is that the benefit goes to those with the best jobs and not to those who in your opinion don't contribute enough. You can't put blinders on when discussing the economics of HC. The more the govt does to get people insured by injecting money without price controls, the more the lower earners are denied access.

You are the one that injected the comment about the lazy people. One would wonder... what's the point of that except to rationalize how some people should be left out. You can't leave people out unless you want to create a 3rd world HC system for them.. i.e. without professional regulation and easier access to medications sans prescriptions and border controls for sale.

The bottom line is that universal HC is the only way out of this mess we've created. You keep referring to hospitals giving free HC to poor people as some sort of solution. That is a system that only works for the poor and the rich and leaves those in the middle vulnerable to being soaked to compensate for all that free HC hospitals are forced to give.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-14-2017, 1:15 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Who's turning what you said? Using tax revenue and rules that encourage employers to buy HI is a subversion of the free market and is inflationary. The bottom line is that the benefit goes to those with the best jobs and not to those who in your opinion don't contribute enough. You can't put blinders on when discussing the economics of HC. The more the govt does to get people insured by injecting money without price controls, the more the lower earners are denied access.

You are the one that injected the comment about the lazy people. One would wonder... what's the point of that except to rationalize how some people should be left out. You can't leave people out unless you want to create a 3rd world HC system for them.. i.e. without professional regulation and easier access to medications sans prescriptions and border controls for sale.

The bottom line is that universal HC is the only way out of this mess we've created. You keep referring to hospitals giving free HC to poor people as some sort of solution. That is a system that only works for the poor and the rich and leaves those in the middle vulnerable to being soaked to compensate for all that free HC hospitals are forced to give.
This is the fatal flaw in the GOP's line of reasoning when in comes to eliminating the mandate. "People should have a choice in whether or not to buy HC". The only way that works is if hospitals have a "choice" in whether or not to service a sick or injured patient. Otherwise, recovering the lost revenue is passed on to other customers that are able to pay for their care. So all I can gather is that SomeoneElse doesn't want to pay for a non-contributor's HC through federal dollars, but doesn't mind paying for that HC if it is passed on by the hospital as a fee increase.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       03-14-2017, 1:25 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
So all I can gather is that SomeoneElse doesn't want to pay for a non-contributor's HC through federal dollars, but doesn't mind paying for that HC if it is passed on by the hospital as a fee increase.
Pretty much the limit of most conservatives knowledge of economics is...

1) If you give money to poor people they won't want to work.

2) It's my money and the govt shouldn't take it to give to people who don't want to work.

Once you get past those past those two talking points the only response left is shouting "socialism!".
Old    TheWakeIsReal            03-14-2017, 2:05 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
democrats were for keeping people enslaved through government mandate just as they do now. Label it big or small government if you want.
That's where were different. You look at parties like a sports team with zero care of the ideologies behind them. Zero clue of platform changes.
Old     (plhorn)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-14-2017, 2:19 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWakeIsReal View Post
That's where were different. You look at parties like a sports team with zero care of the ideologies behind them. Zero clue of platform changes.
This is the biggest issue we are facing as a political society. Team mentality. Some of the GOP ideas are good and some of the democrat ideas are good. Unfortunately, the majority of us have been trained to think that if the idea comes from the "other team" its a bad idea.

We need to people to think for themselves and not as a group collective.

WE ARE ALL ON THE SAME TEAM, we just have different ideas on which play will make the touchdown.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       03-14-2017, 5:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWakeIsReal View Post
That's where were different. You look at parties like a sports team with zero care of the ideologies behind them. Zero clue of platform changes.
You are 100% spot on about treating parties like a sports team. However I think that both sides do care about ideology. But when your ideology isn't good enough to win an election, the sports paradigm comes out. For example, this election was all about casting Hillary as a liar. But then the opposition elects a big liar. Remember there was one lie that conservatives used against Obama for years. The one about keeping your doctor. Then Trump comes along and tells the biggest lie that everyone will be covered and it's not worth a mention. Instead it appears that they elected one of the biggest liars in recent history.

The bottom line is that in the election it appeared that conservatives were all about the "lies". Now lying is ok. That's because it's really about ideology. And in that case the end justifies the means. You can use fake news, lies, and half truths. Anything goes as long as you win.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-14-2017, 5:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
You are 100% spot on about treating parties like a sports team. However I think that both sides do care about ideology. But when your ideology isn't good enough to win an election, the sports paradigm comes out. For example, this election was all about casting Hillary as a liar. But then the opposition elects a big liar. Remember there was one lie that conservatives used against Obama for years. The one about keeping your doctor. Then Trump comes along and tells the biggest lie that everyone will be covered and it's not worth a mention. Instead it appears that they elected one of the biggest liars in recent history.

The bottom line is that in the election it appeared that conservatives were all about the "lies". Now lying is ok. That's because it's really about ideology. And in that case the end justifies the means. You can use fake news, lies, and half truths. Anything goes as long as you win.
Do you mean to tell me that Trump didn't have the "largest margin of victory in a presidential election since Reagan"?
Old    deltahoosier            03-14-2017, 6:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
You are 100% spot on about treating parties like a sports team. However I think that both sides do care about ideology. But when your ideology isn't good enough to win an election, the sports paradigm comes out. For example, this election was all about casting Hillary as a liar. But then the opposition elects a big liar. Remember there was one lie that conservatives used against Obama for years. The one about keeping your doctor. Then Trump comes along and tells the biggest lie that everyone will be covered and it's not worth a mention. Instead it appears that they elected one of the biggest liars in recent history.

The bottom line is that in the election it appeared that conservatives were all about the "lies". Now lying is ok. That's because it's really about ideology. And in that case the end justifies the means. You can use fake news, lies, and half truths. Anything goes as long as you win.
apparently an ideology is good enough to win an election and one is bad enough to lose an election. Telling people in the midwest that they were straight up going to run their employers out of business over a fake cult is a losing proposition. Calling half the country deplorables is a bad position. Telling gun owners they were going to go after their guns is a bad position. Not doing anything about illegals is a bad position. Telling people they can keep their doctors when they could not is a bad position. Fining poor people when they can not afford healthcare is a bad position.

Sure blame it on people painting hillary as a liar as the reason she lost if you want. She told plenty of the truth and people did not want it except the rich coastal elites who profit off everything she took a bad position on.
Old    deltahoosier            03-14-2017, 6:56 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
Do you mean to tell me that Trump didn't have the "largest margin of victory in a presidential election since Reagan"?
May be true if not for the large swing in California's voter margin. Wonder how a state swings that many votes in a relative short time? A state that has elected Republican governors many times. Could it be motor voter registration? Could it be illegals getting drivers licenses? Maybe it is children of illegals finally getting to vote? I wonder???
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       03-14-2017, 9:53 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
There already is a system in place. It is called the county hospital. It has been there for years.

If we are talking social contracts, I know quiet a few people who sit around smoking pot all day. Some of them do have small part time jobs but are held back by their lack of drive. What about their contribution to the social contract? It swings both ways.
How good is the county hospital? Why would you need health insurance if it is adequate? FYI in NZ the public hospitals are pretty good, only 30% of people have health insurance because it is seen as a luxury rather than necessity. We can achieve this with a reasonable tax rate. We don't spend a lot on military and walls etc... personally I am happy to pay tax to fund public Healthcare and education.
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       03-14-2017, 11:23 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by plhorn View Post
By all means put forth a logical argument for Trumpcare a system that costs more, insures 18M less people in the first year and gives a tax break to the super rich.

I'm all ears.

I don't believe in universal health care per say, so I don't even happen to like "Trump care". Obama care was the single worst decision for healthcare ever. Whatever the first step in reducing that is I am ok with.



Here is my opinion and I am far from an expert , but I have had a dozen "sports medicine/Ortho" surgeries and have had to deal anton with insurance companies and workmans's comp.
Brand new billion dollar hospitals, surgery centers, and medical buildings are going up all over the place here........The hospitals and drug companies are seeing money thrown at them left and right. I don't feel our healthcare costs have anything to do with "the actual cost " of healthcare . There are too many middle men and people in between getting rich. I always hear we are gonna bill your insurance this amount because we need to get this amount in return .......it's a giant scam , and none of these decisions have anything to do with people's health if you ask me. It has to do with lining pockets. There are so many useless positions and people involved in your healthcare treatment and/or decisions it's mind boggling. We can streamline that now for sure and that's where I would start. I never understood why when I have a surgery, said surgery costs ( x ) amount , but if I don't have insurance they can get that down further to help me with the costs. I know it's sonthey getbtheir cash from the insurance companies, but it's still is crazy.

I also know is this. My out of pocket expenses have doubled , my health care costs have doubled , and my coverage has been halved since Obamacare was implemented. Numerous Dr's have dropped out of accepting insurance and gone al a carte. Nothing good came of Obamacare for a working family that previously possessed insurance.

Serious question, does anyone feel the health care industry was in trouble before Obamacare ? What I mean, were hospitals closing , were dr's drying up , were there outrageous waits to be seen? Was anyone ever turned away because they didn't possess insurance from a county hospital or care station? I am pretty certain no.



I riddle you this. Healthcare is like gambling on your life . In a majority of cases people who pay in rarely use more than what they've paid in. So now on to that person without healthcare ......... Under a universal healthcare system like Obamacare people that had insurance are paying up front for these people without it it "just in case" to cover them. These non-covered individuals may or may not end up ever using it, but under this plan the cash flow is expecting them to use it. So you're paying no matter what and the money goes where then ? .

Now the chances of someone needing major surgery or racking up large bills are percentage wise not favorable. . The percentages here are all in favor of someone not needing it. Wouldn't it make sense to "play the odds " and only pay for it when it's needed ( meaning when one of these "uninsured " people walk into a hospital ?) To me that's the better more efficient way. Also. universal healthcare under Obamacare isn't free. Even after we foot the bill for those who couldn't afford it prior I if something was to happen , they would still have an outstanding balance toncover the out of pocket expense that would also need to be covered . Studies have also shown people who were not covered previously , but now are covered under Obamacare are more likely to take trips to the Dr/ hospitals for minor things , thus racking up bills they otherwise wouldn't have even thought of prior.

To me I would be ok with a universal healthcare system thatbis TRULY universal. To me that means everyone pays a flat rate (kinda like taxes ). Anyone walks into hospital and needs treatment gets what they need and there is no bill. Need a surgery....choose your dr and your surgery is covered . That's the only way I ever see myself supporting a universal system. You need surgery. Anything short of that is not a universal system in my eyes and is just rearranging the chairs in the deck in a shell game for money.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       03-15-2017, 1:00 AM Reply   
I 100% agree. Universal insurance is a band aid on a broken system, there is so much fraud and waste in the American Healthcare system it is totally broken.

Over here we have govt owned hospitals which are mostly free, there is some user pays stuff but it is subsidized to keep it affordable. This creates a baseline in the market in regards to performance and cost. Private Healthcare with insurance have to compete with this baseline and offer better services with high associated costs (insurance premiums). The system isn't perfect but it is a ****load better than what you have.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-15-2017, 4:16 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by xstarrider View Post

Serious question, does anyone feel the health care industry was in trouble before Obamacare ? What I mean, were hospitals closing , were dr's drying up , were there outrageous waits to be seen? Was anyone ever turned away because they didn't possess insurance from a county hospital or care station? I am pretty certain no.



I riddle you this. Healthcare is like gambling on your life . In a majority of cases people who pay in rarely use more than what they've paid in. So now on to that person without healthcare ......... Under a universal healthcare system like Obamacare people that had insurance are paying up front for these people without it it "just in case" to cover them. These non-covered individuals may or may not end up ever using it, but under this plan the cash flow is expecting them to use it. So you're paying no matter what and the money goes where then ? .

Now the chances of someone needing major surgery or racking up large bills are percentage wise not favorable. . The percentages here are all in favor of someone not needing it. Wouldn't it make sense to "play the odds " and only pay for it when it's needed ( meaning when one of these "uninsured " people walk into a hospital ?) To me that's the better more efficient way. Also. universal healthcare under Obamacare isn't free. Even after we foot the bill for those who couldn't afford it prior I if something was to happen , they would still have an outstanding balance toncover the out of pocket expense that would also need to be covered . Studies have also shown people who were not covered previously , but now are covered under Obamacare are more likely to take trips to the Dr/ hospitals for minor things , thus racking up bills they otherwise wouldn't have even thought of prior.

To me I would be ok with a universal healthcare system thatbis TRULY universal. To me that means everyone pays a flat rate (kinda like taxes ). Anyone walks into hospital and needs treatment gets what they need and there is no bill. Need a surgery....choose your dr and your surgery is covered . That's the only way I ever see myself supporting a universal system. You need surgery. Anything short of that is not a universal system in my eyes and is just rearranging the chairs in the deck in a shell game for money.
I don't know, why don't you ask the guy with pre-exisiting conditions that was unable to get medical insurance before Obamacare.

And no it doesn't make sense to "play the odds". What if that person comes down with cancer? Do you know what the total cost would be for the treatment regiment?

Costs were not controlled under Obamacare because the penalty for not getting insurance was not high enough. It was still cheaper to pay the fine instead of buying insurance. Obamacare was built on the younger population buying insurance and the influx in premiums keeping rates low for everyone.
Old    deltahoosier            03-15-2017, 10:07 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
This is the fatal flaw in the GOP's line of reasoning when in comes to eliminating the mandate. "People should have a choice in whether or not to buy HC". The only way that works is if hospitals have a "choice" in whether or not to service a sick or injured patient. Otherwise, recovering the lost revenue is passed on to other customers that are able to pay for their care. So all I can gather is that SomeoneElse doesn't want to pay for a non-contributor's HC through federal dollars, but doesn't mind paying for that HC if it is passed on by the hospital as a fee increase.
We already are paying for non contributors. It is called the county hospitals. People don't want to go because the service stinks, they are usually in crappy parts of town, they are busy and face it many don't want to be around the "wrong crowd" to get there. So what do they want. They want what the contributors have and have worked for as part of their compensation package. Basically, you want everyone to have to go to the VA style doctors. How does that system work? Hear about that in the news quiet a bit.

You are correct. Hospitals should be able to turn away walk ins without insurance for that facility. They should treat trama though.
Old    deltahoosier            03-15-2017, 10:12 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph View Post
I 100% agree. Universal insurance is a band aid on a broken system, there is so much fraud and waste in the American Healthcare system it is totally broken.

Over here we have govt owned hospitals which are mostly free, there is some user pays stuff but it is subsidized to keep it affordable. This creates a baseline in the market in regards to performance and cost. Private Healthcare with insurance have to compete with this baseline and offer better services with high associated costs (insurance premiums). The system isn't perfect but it is a ****load better than what you have.
You also have control of your boarder and don't have doctors that have to get hundreds of thousands in education bills that they have to recoup. Also, sky high malpractice insurance. We also have very strict medical privacy laws that take many people to manage to keep your data safe.

Now as far as loads better than want we have, that is debatable. We have pretty fast service if you are not at a government ran institution like a county hospital or the VA.
Old    deltahoosier            03-15-2017, 10:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
I don't know, why don't you ask the guy with pre-exisiting conditions that was unable to get medical insurance before Obamacare.

And no it doesn't make sense to "play the odds". What if that person comes down with cancer? Do you know what the total cost would be for the treatment regiment?

Costs were not controlled under Obamacare because the penalty for not getting insurance was not high enough. It was still cheaper to pay the fine instead of buying insurance. Obamacare was built on the younger population buying insurance and the influx in premiums keeping rates low for everyone.
IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. You are mandating that there be more money in a market that has a captive audience. Prices will only go up. It is economics 101. You think the drug makers, doctors and hospitals are not going to pick up on that? In theory that is the case, but has it happened in the 8 years?

Go ahead and raise the penalty. Do you think poor people had the money in the first place? Now they are just being doubled down with regulations and fees.

If it works the way you say, great. It only helps me. I made sure I got jobs that have benefits my whole life. This will take money out of the young ballers hands and put it in a wealth change scheme (young to old). Means less money in the economy for me to have to compete against fro housing, goods and services.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       03-15-2017, 11:07 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
You also have control of your boarder
True, we have a natural advantage in this regard but you assume that your current boarder control significantly affects Healthcare costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
and don't have doctors that have to get hundreds of thousands in education bills that they have to recoup.
True, because we prioritize spending on education rather than military. This subsidies the doctors education and supports them in providing this expertise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
Also, sky high malpractice insurance. .
True because we have ACC legislation which provides blanket govt provided cover for such incidents


Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
We also have very strict medical privacy laws that take many people to manage to keep your data safe. .
We have that too


Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
Now as far as loads better than want we have, that is debatable.
Our system is good enough that 70% of people run without insurance, I think that speaks for itself

I'm not point these things out in a ha ha we have it sorted sort of way, just that there is alternatives to what you guys do and it works in other places.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       03-15-2017, 11:21 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
Go ahead and raise the penalty. Do you think poor people had the money in the first place? Now they are just being doubled down with regulations and fees.
Poor people get most of their insurance paid for by the govt under the ACA. If you are too poor then you don't qualify for the exchange, but can get access to expanded medicaid coverage if you aren't in a state run by a Republican idiot like Florida.

WRT controlling costs we only need to look to the countries with UHC and see how they do it.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       03-15-2017, 11:38 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
WRT controlling costs we only need to look to the countries with UHC and see how they do it.

Rationing and Death Panels!

The analysis seems to be "I may not be able to afford insurance or healthcare, but by God I sure don't want any reasonably priced coverage that may make me wait for a procedure that I can't afford now anyway."

Meh, on a personal level though, TrumpTardCare is a huge tax cut for me so if y'all want to give me your money, I guess I'll take it.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       03-15-2017, 11:39 AM Reply   
Same here. Republicans seem bound and determined to give me more money no matter how many people get screwed.
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       03-15-2017, 12:38 PM Reply   
"True, because we prioritize spending on education rather than military"

Wonder how you are able to do that.........
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       03-15-2017, 2:00 PM Reply   
Quote:
True, we have a natural advantage in this regard but you assume that your current boarder control significantly affects Healthcare costs.

Who do you think pays for all the illegals that go to a hospital for care ? Border security definitely directly effects health care costs . The amount of illegals in this country is definitely impactful with this regard.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-15-2017, 2:00 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
"True, because we prioritize spending on education rather than military"

Wonder how you are able to do that.........
Maybe it's because they stay out of other countries affairs and choose not to engage in For-profit wars.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-15-2017, 2:03 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. You are mandating that there be more money in a market that has a captive audience. Prices will only go up. It is economics 101. You think the drug makers, doctors and hospitals are not going to pick up on that? In theory that is the case, but has it happened in the 8 years?

Go ahead and raise the penalty. Do you think poor people had the money in the first place? Now they are just being doubled down with regulations and fees.

If it works the way you say, great. It only helps me. I made sure I got jobs that have benefits my whole life. This will take money out of the young ballers hands and put it in a wealth change scheme (young to old). Means less money in the economy for me to have to compete against fro housing, goods and services.
Yes or no. Did prices stay down before Obamacare?
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       03-15-2017, 2:04 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
I don't know, why don't you ask the guy with pre-exisiting conditions that was unable to get medical insurance before Obamacare.

And no it doesn't make sense to "play the odds". What if that person comes down with cancer? Do you know what the total cost would be for the treatment regiment?

Costs were not controlled under Obamacare because the penalty for not getting insurance was not high enough. It was still cheaper to pay the fine instead of buying insurance. Obamacare was built on the younger population buying insurance and the influx in premiums keeping rates low for everyone.
The cost of that one person is far less than the cost of billions to be covered "just in" case. Even if that person did have insurance now , only because of Obamacare , do you think he can afford to pay his out of pocket expenses, So who pays for all that anyways ?


Can you tell me who's rates didn't go up because of it being implemented ?
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       03-15-2017, 2:06 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
Yes or no. Did prices stay down before Obamacare?

Mine stayed pretty consistent before Obamacare. saw minor incremental increases every so often to cover for the rising cost of care, much more manageable and reasonable.
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       03-15-2017, 2:08 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
"True, because we prioritize spending on education rather than military"

Wonder how you are able to do that.........
Because Canada doesn't assert itself as a world leader . They're happy just existing , plugging along.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-15-2017, 2:09 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by xstarrider View Post
The cost of that one person is far less than the cost of billions to be covered "just in" case. Even if that person did have insurance now , only because of Obamacare , do you think he can afford to pay his out of pocket expenses, So who pays for all that anyways ?


Can you tell me who's rates didn't go up because of it being implemented ?
So your solution would be just to tell him to die? And did it ever occur to you that the guy works? Do you think that everyone with pre-existing conditions is a moocher?
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       03-15-2017, 2:14 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
So your solution would be just to tell him to die? And did it ever occur to you that the guy works? Do you think that everyone with pre-existing conditions is a moocher?
Who said he doesn't get care without having insurance ? Hospitals can't deny that care under the old system. Doesn't he get the top care afforded to the elite cancer patients who pay a premium for it ???? No, But he still gets the best treatment he can get . You're arguing a for a blanket aspect that has to many additions besides just covering pre -existing conditions. The better option is to simply lobby to go after the pre existing "exclusion " as a whole In the previous system no?


Whataspects do you feel were so wrong with the previous system that obamacare swoops in and fixes

Last edited by xstarrider; 03-15-2017 at 2:18 PM.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       03-15-2017, 2:18 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by xstarrider View Post
Whataspects do you feel were so wrong with the previous system that obamacare swoops in and fixes
1) No one can be denied HI. 2) The govt contributes to those with low earnings to make it affordable. 3) Medicaid is expanded for those who are extremely poor.

Pretty much everything that's extremely obvious to anyone who chooses to use their brain.
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       03-15-2017, 2:28 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
1) No one can be denied HI. 2) The govt contributes to those with low earnings to make it affordable. 3) Medicaid is expanded for those who are extremely poor.

Pretty much everything that's extremely obvious to anyone who chooses to use their brain.
U mean your old wrinkled brain that is completely out of touch with reality ..........., I am assuming that was probably considered a pre-existing condition .

It's clear you're an ignorant, narrow minded individual . It's sucks so bad here healthcare wise why didn't you move to Canada ? Or Aussie land. Why do you even earn any money , you should just give it all away to cover and pay for everyone who can't pay for themselves. Still awaiting responses from that brain so you claim is so full of knowledgE

Last edited by xstarrider; 03-15-2017 at 2:35 PM.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       03-15-2017, 2:42 PM Reply   
You asked a question and got a direct answer to it. They were all simple answers that you should have known. The reason you are waiting for responses is because you are an idiot who can't follow along.
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