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Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       09-19-2016, 10:31 AM Reply   
The first thing I wanted to get out of the way is that I don't hate surfing or surfers. I do it on occasion and its a nice low impact way of having fun on the water. But the new boats have made it so easy for the average ignorant joe to wreak havoc. I was new to water sports not too long ago as well, so I recognize these people are most likely not doing it on purpose. They just don't even know any better and just as likely think you are the idiot.

The lake I go to is usually a zoo on the weekends so we go out at sunrise to get some riding in. When it's super busy, I totally get that there is only limited space and every line and area is fair game for someone to come into so that they can get some riding in too. Lately, the issue has been that even in the morning there are already 1 or 2 surfers out that are sometimes tearing up the lake from early morning! Usually we will just try to find another area but at times, what ends up happening is some useless arm flailing and WTF movements from my crew. I am sure the other boats are just looking at us and not understanding why our boats passengers are having a seizure over there.

In the last month alone these have just been some issues that stand out in my head:

1. We have been running a line by the shore back and forth and we were the ONLY boat on the lake (other than random fishermen). Then out comes the surfer hero and literally starts running the same exact line. There is the ENTIRE lake, but instead of choosing any other area or shore, he thinks it was a good idea to split our line in half length wise. Since they are going half the speed, we keep catching up to them. In the end, they were yelling things at us, probably for coming at them (still a safe distance but to try and show them our line). It's ridiculous.

2. Wakesurfers coming in and literally just running their "line" in a circle in the MIDDLE of the only large area on our lake to board. There are plently of smaller areas that are great for surfing and there are just plenty of shores to hug. But they see the middle open "for some odd reason", so why not do it there.

3. Doing insane power turns over and over again. I see this all the time. 100k+ boat with someone new learning to surf. That should be a GREAT thing. Instead it's just someone that no only creates waves down his line but throws them in every direction every 2 minutes.

I know that it's tough being ignorant, because they are literally washing out their own spots as well. Taking in water left and right. Many times they are doing things that is literally \endangering everyone else and/or themselves! Sometimes its the family with kids on the boat. Sometimes its 5 muscle heads on boat. Sometimes it's what looks like a mix of good and bad riders. I'm just surprised that the good riders don't speak up, but maybe it's not their boat and they don't feel like it's their place.

Flailing arms and yelling across 100's of feet is useless.How do you guys deal with all these guys?
Old     (TC_Mastercraf_X5)      Join Date: Feb 2013       09-19-2016, 10:38 AM Reply   
I had this same problem this last weekend. Woke up at the butt crack of dawn to get some gorgeous glass water before the big boats hit the water. First set was AWESOME! Then a friendly G25 decides that hes going to be fully ballasted and try to teach people to surf right in my line. I am all about surfing as it requires skills and gets people on the water. However, I think there needs to be some sort of water education...
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-19-2016, 11:21 AM Reply   
Double ups around them work well. Nothing worse tha. Being in a loaded surf boat and getting hit with waves from all directions
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-19-2016, 11:23 AM Reply   
Sorry guys, but this just sounds like more whining. The usual complaint is how wake surfers should be relegated to the middle of the lake where it's choppy or blown out. Now they're suppossed to go to the edge? Which one is it? Who says it's "your line?" I could understand if you guys were both boarding at the same speed etc, but you're not. Overall, it sounds like you guys just don't have very good places to ride or they're just too small if all it takes is one boat to ruin your day. When we do board, I always try to avoid surfers and tubers and if I can't beat em, I join em since I don't own the lake/river.
Old     (theloungelife)      Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Salt Lake City, UT       09-19-2016, 11:23 AM Reply   
I feel you on this one. I avoid one popular lake here in UT, because multiple times I've dropped in at 6:30am on a WEEKDAY and there is some guy doing circles with a surfer in the middle.

I don't think these people are mean spirited. Just not in the know.

I've debated the best way to educate these people. It has to be friendly, simple and easy to access. It would be awesome if there was a Wakeworld or other organization pamphlet with some solid rules for the water (no power turns, respect the line, driving patterns etc). Maybe with some QR codes to youtube videos explaining the concepts.

All I know if yelling doesn't work, haha.
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-19-2016, 11:27 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
Double ups around them work well. Nothing worse tha. Being in a loaded surf boat and getting hit with waves from all directions
Yeah that sounds real funny and a great idea until your wake sinks a boat or injures or kills someone. On top of that, you stand a good chance of someone pounding your head in afterwards if you do it intentionally. If you did that to me when I had little kids in my boat... God help you.
Old     (migs)      Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: SF Bay Area       09-19-2016, 11:28 AM Reply   
come on over to the delta and witness for yourself how 1 bloody surfer destroys an entire 2 mile slough all by himself.
Even better - having to pass the surfer while pulling your rider on that same narrow slough.
Old     (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-19-2016, 11:38 AM Reply   
I don't think it really matters what is being done behind the boat. I always do my best to stay away from the next person regardless of what they are doing. I want to run my own line and not share as well so I will try and go somewhere else if I can. Years ago I would have been that same person yelling at the next person because I want the butter to myself. After 23 years of wakeboarding my body can't take it anymore so I will be and already am the one surfing at the crack of dawn. It's not done to throw a big FU to anyone else what so ever. It's because I got up early to do the same thing you did......beat the crowds. You see the same ignorance whether it be tubers, jet ski's, wakeboarders, and wakesurfers.
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-19-2016, 11:42 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcrider View Post
I don't think it really matters what is being done behind the boat. I always do my best to stay away from the next person regardless of what they are doing. I want to run my own line and not share as well so I will try and go somewhere else if I can. Years ago I would have been that same person yelling at the next person because I want the butter to myself. After 23 years of wakeboarding my body can't take it anymore so I will be and already am the one surfing at the crack of dawn. It's not done to throw a big FU to anyone else what so ever. It's because I got up early to do the same thing you did......beat the crowds. You see the same ignorance whether it be tubers, jet ski's, wakeboarders, and wakesurfers.
Agreed.
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       09-19-2016, 12:00 PM Reply   
I deal with it by never going to the lake. If I didn't have the delta to wakeboard on, I would just quit. or ride Cable 100%.

There are too many other awesome sports out there to have to deal with getting up early to compete for ride-able water with wakesurfers who will always win. On the Delta, thankfully we have so many places to go to avoid them, and a sense of etiquette for many.
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       09-19-2016, 12:06 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
Sorry guys, but this just sounds like more whining. The usual complaint is how wake surfers should be relegated to the middle of the lake where it's choppy or blown out. Now they're suppossed to go to the edge? Which one is it? Who says it's "your line?" I could understand if you guys were both boarding at the same speed etc, but you're not. Overall, it sounds like you guys just don't have very good places to ride or they're just too small if all it takes is one boat to ruin your day. When we do board, I always try to avoid surfers and tubers and if I can't beat em, I join em since I don't own the lake/river.
I included a public service announcement as the very first thing on my post, specifically to try and nip post's like these in the butt. This wasn't meant as a "I hate surfers" post. Obviously it still didn't get through. I am trying to be as reasonable as possible with my complaints.

These drivers are ruining everyone else's experience and also causing dangerous situations. It is true that at our lake there are a limited amount of good areas to do watersports. However there are still more than enough spots during low traffic times. From my first example, they could have literally went to atleast 4 or 5 other spots that were butter. The reason I took the line I did is it was the longest line on our lake that was butter. The line would have been a little shorter at the other places but honestly it would have still been longer than sharing the same one as me. I just ended up moving to a different line later, but as a wakeboarder a longer line matters so much more than when going slow an surfing. They wouldn't even need to turn during a single surf session. When I moved, I really wasn't much worse off in the next place because it was still a good place. This is all a moot point because I recognize that the guy wasn't trying to 'steal' my line. He just floated up to the first place that looked semi smooth and said to himself, well this is as good a place as any.... Ignorance. Hence why I asked if anyone has found a good way to deal with this.

Of course I don't like when ANYONE is taking up a line that has butter. But I have nothing against them. My issue is when they have absolutely no regard to anyone else and just going free nilly. They are the same people that are literally ruining it for everyone in the sport. I really don't care what you think about this, but the reality is that they are the ones coming too close to docks/no wake zones/etc and making agencies take away more and more space from us as a sport.

So just to recap: I'm not complaining against the responsible surfer that is hogging a great line against the shore. Everyone hates not having the best line, but its public water and it's their right as much as it is mine. I am complaining against the surfers that are literally just not in the know. Unfortunately, in my experience, this has been 90% of the surfers I've seen. They are not bad people, they are just ignorant to the sport, the best techniques and the responsibilities that come with it. Creating enormous rollers by going in circles in the middle of the lake is harming everyone, INCLUDING themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
Yeah that sounds real funny and a great idea until your wake sinks a boat or injures or kills someone. On top of that, you stand a good chance of someone pounding your head in afterwards if you do it intentionally. If you did that to me when I had little kids in my boat... God help you.
Please. Stop. Your only embarrassing yourself with your tough guy response. Welcome to America where your fighting skillz, tough guy attitude & ripped biceps dont matter to anyone buy yourself. The saddest part will be when someone goes to 'bash' someones head in and instead their kids have to watch their dad bleeding on the ground from a bullet wound.

We don't need machoismo or to know how big anyone's D**k is. Just help spread awareness of proper boat driving to preserve the sport AND enable everyone to have a good time for as long as possible.
Old     (theloungelife)      Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Salt Lake City, UT       09-19-2016, 12:09 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcrider View Post
I don't think it really matters what is being done behind the boat. I always do my best to stay away from the next person regardless of what they are doing. I want to run my own line and not share as well so I will try and go somewhere else if I can. Years ago I would have been that same person yelling at the next person because I want the butter to myself. After 23 years of wakeboarding my body can't take it anymore so I will be and already am the one surfing at the crack of dawn. It's not done to throw a big FU to anyone else what so ever. It's because I got up early to do the same thing you did......beat the crowds. You see the same ignorance whether it be tubers, jet ski's, wakeboarders, and wakesurfers.
Dave, do you run a straight line or do circles? Circle surfers (unless isolated to a cove) are the ones I'm not a big fan of when it is glass out. It's basically a never ending power turn. If you run a straight and don't power turn, I think most of us have no beef.

I think this all goes back to the lack of boater education. Some dealers are stepping up to the plate and offering lessons with their new boats, but it seems most are not. I will give a shoutout to one of my local dealers (Marine Products) for doing lessons this summer.
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       09-19-2016, 12:15 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcrider View Post
I don't think it really matters what is being done behind the boat. I always do my best to stay away from the next person regardless of what they are doing. I want to run my own line and not share as well so I will try and go somewhere else if I can. Years ago I would have been that same person yelling at the next person because I want the butter to myself. After 23 years of wakeboarding my body can't take it anymore so I will be and already am the one surfing at the crack of dawn. It's not done to throw a big FU to anyone else what so ever. It's because I got up early to do the same thing you did......beat the crowds. You see the same ignorance whether it be tubers, jet ski's, wakeboarders, and wakesurfers.
I understand this post might get a knee jerk reaction from many surfers on here that are used to having to defend their sport. This post is NOT a hate post against surfers. If wakeboarders were doing the same thing, I hate them just as much! It just seems like the biggest problems are coming from ignorant surfers and not wakeboarders.

I can only assume, but I am guessing that YOU are not the person that my post is talking about. If you want to get out early and take the best line to wake surf, more power to ya. Admittedly, no one will ever be happy seeing someone else beat them to the best line or the best anything. But thats OK. The point is you shouldn't be ruining the entire lake doing power turns, unnecessarily creeping into peoples current lines (when there are other available spots close) and going in circles dunking everyone around you.

The point is to be MINDFUL of your wake. Not that you don't have just as much right to have fun in your own way behind your boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
I deal with it by never going to the lake. If I didn't have the delta to wakeboard on, I would just quit. or ride Cable 100%.

There are too many other awesome sports out there to have to deal with getting up early to compete for ride-able water with wakesurfers who will always win. On the Delta, thankfully we have so many places to go to avoid them, and a sense of etiquette for many.
I wish we had more options. Unfortunately we don't and I enjoy wakeboarding too much to give it up. So far, waking up early has worked. We still have alot of frustrating experiences like what the post talks about, but usually we can still get in enough OK riding by working around it.
The other great part is that here in AZ it does still get cold, but if you are ok with putting on a wetsuit and toughing it out, we can ride year round. I give it about 1 more month and our lake will be mostly vacant. I'm not looking forward to the wetsuits, but atleast we get alot of glass.
Old     (CALIV210)      Join Date: Jun 2015       09-19-2016, 12:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
I deal with it by never going to the lake. If I didn't have the delta to wakeboard on, I would just quit. or ride Cable 100%.

There are too many other awesome sports out there to have to deal with getting up early to compete for ride-able water with wakesurfers who will always win. On the Delta, thankfully we have so many places to go to avoid them, and a sense of etiquette for many.
The delta surfers are the worst !! I wish we could get some type of guidelines on water sports etiquette. What I am really most afraid of is stupid people ruining it for everyone . We are a couple accidents away from not being able to tow anyone in the narrow sloughs of the Delta . If you dont think so you dont follow ca politics very well we cant ever sneeze out doors any more .lol

I also think that maybe some unofficial hours of use etiquette would go a long way . Maybe something like first hour after sun up is designated for the old school ski guys then after that Wakeboarding for a few hours then what ever you want for the rest of the day . I'm sorry but I just dont think surfers should get prime time water with the heavily weighted boats stirring up so much water . Im sure most would disagree but those guys should be surfing when the tubers and jet skiers are out there going every which way . Seems the jet ski guys are following the surfers all the time anyway jumping the wake .
Old     (TC_Mastercraf_X5)      Join Date: Feb 2013       09-19-2016, 12:23 PM Reply   
For the record Minnetonka is a big lake, so wasnt a lake size issue. I think they just didnt want to motor around to the next bay.

***Of course I don't like when ANYONE is taking up a line that has butter. But I have nothing against them. My issue is when they have absolutely no regard to anyone else and just going free nilly. They are the same people that are literally ruining it for everyone in the sport. I really don't care what you think about this, but the reality is that they are the ones coming too close to docks/no wake zones/etc and making agencies take away more and more space from us as a sport.***

That was my point that we so rarely have butter on Tonka and its a shame when a power turner bulldozes it. Not my lake i know but post labor day was supposed to get rid of these folks!
Old     (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-19-2016, 12:35 PM Reply   
Rich: I only run straight lines. No power turns or circles.

Timeline: Honestly, I get both sides of this arguement. I really do. When I wakeboarded a lot more back in the day I'd yell at tubers all day long to go find another spot. Got in lots of heated arguments. It's just funny to now be on the other side of it all.

I still love wakeboarding but, my body doesn't so I surf that much more now.

I'm always aware of my surroundings on the water so I can be sure my riders are safe and to minimize my effect on others.
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-19-2016, 1:03 PM Reply   
Who runs in circles??? That's stupid anyway!
Old     (mlzelenik)      Join Date: Apr 2016       09-19-2016, 1:14 PM Reply   
We board and surf a 50/50 mix. Mainly because we board in the morning and then once it hits past 10:30am there is not good water left. Surf from midday until 6 or so and then bust out the wakeboards again.

My main problem with boats surfing is the ones who go in the wakeboard cove and just pull one massive power turn in the back of the cove. On our lake it is best to surf in the open and board in bigger coves since the whole lake fingers off in different directions. We always go check that cove first because you can get some good wakeboard sets in even in the middle of the day if you are lucky. But most of the time we pull up to see 4 boats beating the piss out of each other in a circle. We surf out in the open, long straight lines only.
Old     (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       09-19-2016, 1:35 PM Reply   
Its the stern-roller. It is poison for a wake spot. They can stop and the roller keep going for miles.
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-19-2016, 1:36 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
I included a public service announcement as the very first thing on my post, specifically to try and nip post's like these in the butt. This wasn't meant as a "I hate surfers" post. Obviously it still didn't get through. I am trying to be as reasonable as possible with my complaints.

These drivers are ruining everyone else's experience and also causing dangerous situations. It is true that at our lake there are a limited amount of good areas to do watersports. However there are still more than enough spots during low traffic times. From my first example, they could have literally went to atleast 4 or 5 other spots that were butter. The reason I took the line I did is it was the longest line on our lake that was butter. The line would have been a little shorter at the other places but honestly it would have still been longer than sharing the same one as me. I just ended up moving to a different line later, but as a wakeboarder a longer line matters so much more than when going slow an surfing. They wouldn't even need to turn during a single surf session. When I moved, I really wasn't much worse off in the next place because it was still a good place. This is all a moot point because I recognize that the guy wasn't trying to 'steal' my line. He just floated up to the first place that looked semi smooth and said to himself, well this is as good a place as any.... Ignorance. Hence why I asked if anyone has found a good way to deal with this.

Of course I don't like when ANYONE is taking up a line that has butter. But I have nothing against them. My issue is when they have absolutely no regard to anyone else and just going free nilly. They are the same people that are literally ruining it for everyone in the sport. I really don't care what you think about this, but the reality is that they are the ones coming too close to docks/no wake zones/etc and making agencies take away more and more space from us as a sport.

So just to recap: I'm not complaining against the responsible surfer that is hogging a great line against the shore. Everyone hates not having the best line, but its public water and it's their right as much as it is mine. I am complaining against the surfers that are literally just not in the know. Unfortunately, in my experience, this has been 90% of the surfers I've seen. They are not bad people, they are just ignorant to the sport, the best techniques and the responsibilities that come with it. Creating enormous rollers by going in circles in the middle of the lake is harming everyone, INCLUDING themselves.



Please. Stop. Your only embarrassing yourself with your tough guy response. Welcome to America where your fighting skillz, tough guy attitude & ripped biceps dont matter to anyone buy yourself. The saddest part will be when someone goes to 'bash' someones head in and instead their kids have to watch their dad bleeding on the ground from a bullet wound.

We don't need machoismo or to know how big anyone's D**k is. Just help spread awareness of proper boat driving to preserve the sport AND enable everyone to have a good time for as long as possible.
Yeah yeah, I get what you're saying, but you gotta realize that you can't expect other people to read your mind and know where "their place" is in your world-not to mention you can't expect them to care. I deal with this all the time myself. I just figured out awhile ago that it's easier to roll with it rather than sit and mope. Oh, if you're near a bunch of wake surfers, you'll have no problem rolling. LOL. I guess the funniest part is where so many folks really think that what they're doing is more important than what anyone else wants to do. Like they're entitled and everything should be how THEY want it.

Having said all that, rude people are rude people. I'm not making any excuses for them. Rude people do EVERY sport behind the boat though. I was on the river on Sunday when I watched a wakeboarder in his new LSV (black and yellow) pulling a wakeboarder right through a no wake zone while we were idling through. Total douche nugget. Again, rude people are just that.

As for the tough guy comment, I was only responding to someone who was advocating his own prescription for hurting someone else intentionally. I was doing my own PSA to help him in the future.

Bottom line is these threads about how "this person or that pisses me off" are so tired on WW. The horse is dead already. ....And these claims of how 90% of all wake surfers are so bad is just ridiculous. Better tell that to Parks Bonifay since that's what he's up to now...
Old     (stevo8290)      Join Date: Sep 2008       09-19-2016, 1:41 PM Reply   
wakesurfing
Old     (stevo8290)      Join Date: Sep 2008       09-19-2016, 1:42 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiboarder View Post
Its the stern-roller. It is poison for a wake spot. They can stop and the roller keep going for miles.
+1 this is literally the worst
Old     (migs)      Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: SF Bay Area       09-19-2016, 1:49 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo8290 View Post
+1 this is literally the worst
Pic to prove it.
Attached Images
 
Old     (newwhit)      Join Date: Mar 2007       09-19-2016, 1:56 PM Reply   
Timelinex,

we are in AZ too. We are usually there mid-week pre or post working hours, but we hit saguaro lake Saturday late afternoon. I usually avoid Saturday's at all costs! Winter is the best time in AZ! We just moved back here a year ago, and when we left eleven years ago, after Labor Day the lakes were always nice and calm and quiet.
When we brave the zoo, We like to run up the lake to a sectioned off no wake zone, anchor, swim and mess around, and then board to the dock after traffic calms down. It was much quieter than most Saturday's in the summer, and we had a good 2 hours before sun down made the whole outing worth it.

People here have no idea. Power turning this way and that, not yielding to boats underway, and just being dumb. We where headed into the dock late Saturday and so were some other boats. We were surfing (along an empty shore, in a straight line ��) when one boat passed us going up the lake and three boats tried to pass going same direction as us. Of course my brother fell, right when those three boats tried to pass, at the same time. One boat instead of changing course just powered down and floated 5 feet from him. IDIOTS! At least they puttered by saying how sorry they were...

No etiquette at all. No common sense. Don't get me started with the cluster at the ramp... The worst part, and it says more about me than them, but we saw AT LEAST $1million worth of wake boats all 10 yrs newer than mine, pulling tubes. We saw other 1 wake boarder and one skier All afternoon. Ugh. As long as you are smart and considerate, I don't care what you do, but it does irk me seeing that...
Btw, we pulled a 6 yo, 7 yo, and two 9 year olds wake boarding on Saturday, besides my brother and me. Oh, my 70 yo mother surfed, too. I do think however, that Tubing is unfortunately fun, and has its place.
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       09-19-2016, 2:14 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
Yeah yeah, I get what you're saying, but you gotta realize that you can't expect other people to read your mind and know where "their place" is in your world-not to mention you can't expect them to care. I deal with this all the time myself. I just figured out awhile ago that it's easier to roll with it rather than sit and mope. Oh, if you're near a bunch of wake surfers, you'll have no problem rolling. LOL. I guess the funniest part is where so many folks really think that what they're doing is more important than what anyone else wants to do. Like they're entitled and everything should be how THEY want it.

Having said all that, rude people are rude people. I'm not making any excuses for them. Rude people do EVERY sport behind the boat though. I was on the river on Sunday when I watched a wakeboarder in his new LSV (black and yellow) pulling a wakeboarder right through a no wake zone while we were idling through. Total douche nugget. Again, rude people are just that.

As for the tough guy comment, I was only responding to someone who was advocating his own prescription for hurting someone else intentionally. I was doing my own PSA to help him in the future.

Bottom line is these threads about how "this person or that pisses me off" are so tired on WW. The horse is dead already. ....And these claims of how 90% of all wake surfers are so bad is just ridiculous. Better tell that to Parks Bonifay since that's what he's up to now...
I really think we are on the same page here....

I'm not for the 'entitled' crowd either. None of the sports are 'better' or more important and everyone does what they like most.

I know that your really resisting the fact that it's mostly surfers, but there is a reason why it's brought up so often. It really is MOSTLY surfers. It's not because surfing inherently makes someone a bad driver. It's a combination

1. The new boats making it easy for anyone to throw a huge wave.
2. The wave required for surfing is exponentially worse than most the damage done by other sports and activities.
3. Surfing is such a great 'everyone can do it' sport, that it attracts most the casual boaters out of all the sports. Unfortunately it's usually the casual boater thats ignorant to etiquette.

I understand your laissez-faire attitude and generally side with it. But in this case it's having a bad effect on all our sports. If we don't educate new riders then more people will get hurt/killed, more docks broken, etc.. On top of it all, at the time when we need to band together the most, we will be most divided.

I deal with the situation the best way I can and I don't sit an mope about it. But I was asking if anyone has found an effective way to deal with the situation (other than just concede and move on)
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       09-19-2016, 2:25 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by newwhit View Post
Timelinex,

we are in AZ too. We are usually there mid-week pre or post working hours, but we hit saguaro lake Saturday late afternoon. I usually avoid Saturday's at all costs! Winter is the best time in AZ! We just moved back here a year ago, and when we left eleven years ago, after Labor Day the lakes were always nice and calm and quiet.
When we brave the zoo, We like to run up the lake to a sectioned off no wake zone, anchor, swim and mess around, and then board to the dock after traffic calms down. It was much quieter than most Saturday's in the summer, and we had a good 2 hours before sun down made the whole outing worth it.

People here have no idea. Power turning this way and that, not yielding to boats underway, and just being dumb. We where headed into the dock late Saturday and so were some other boats. We were surfing (along an empty shore, in a straight line ��) when one boat passed us going up the lake and three boats tried to pass going same direction as us. Of course my brother fell, right when those three boats tried to pass, at the same time. One boat instead of changing course just powered down and floated 5 feet from him. IDIOTS! At least they puttered by saying how sorry they were...

No etiquette at all. No common sense. Don't get me started with the cluster at the ramp... The worst part, and it says more about me than them, but we saw AT LEAST $1million worth of wake boats all 10 yrs newer than mine, pulling tubes. We saw other 1 wake boarder and one skier All afternoon. Ugh. As long as you are smart and considerate, I don't care what you do, but it does irk me seeing that...
Btw, we pulled a 6 yo, 7 yo, and two 9 year olds wake boarding on Saturday, besides my brother and me. Oh, my 70 yo mother surfed, too. I do think however, that Tubing is unfortunately fun, and has its place.
Sweet, fellow AZ'r! I'm up north/west so by far the closest lake to me is Lake Pleasant. I totally feel your pain. It seems like in the last year there has been an onslaught of new wakeboard boats on the lake and everyone is either just tubing with them or surfing. Wakeboard boats are the new must have item and the Phoenix/Scottsdale community has ALOT of people with extra money. My friend was recently on a girls Malibu that literally didn't even know how to do any watersports. Just tubed and bought the Malibu because it looked awesome. If they can swing it, nothing wrong with it. But it sure is funny haha.

Anyways, good to meet other local winter riders. We are a rare breed! Most riders seem to be in the mesa/chandler area and not Lake Pleasant. Our friend that was our '3rd' last winter just moved back to California a few weeks ago. Hopefully my other friend decides the cold is worth riding this year!
Old     (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-19-2016, 2:34 PM Reply   
If you really want to understand the mind frame of the average boater ask them how many hours they do in a season. If it's less than 30 you have your answer as to why they are potentially clueless on the water. Anyone that does more hours would (at least I hope) have a better understanding of what you should and shouldn't do.
Old     (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       09-19-2016, 3:16 PM Reply   
I'm making an official looking sign for my dock that says "No Wakesurfing. You are responsible for your own wake". That is what I am doing.
Old     (bill)      Join Date: Feb 2001       09-19-2016, 3:40 PM Reply   
I could do nothing BUT LOL reading these posts.. Brings me way back to the times when we were hated by all the skiers, slalom and footy guys who said the same thing about us..
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       09-19-2016, 4:53 PM Reply   
Wake Whiners World.....
Old     (h2oslider)      Join Date: Sep 2016       09-19-2016, 5:26 PM Reply   
Good to know that this issue is nation wide. Same thing happens out on Lake Austin here in Texas. You get on the water and find some smooth glassy water that you dreamed about all week, only to have a wake surfer roll through just as you put your boots on with their stern rollers running for miles down the lake. I also wake surf after 1 or 2 sets on the wakeboard, but I make sure we go find some rougher water to go surf thats not going to ruin it for everyone else. Would be nice if Dealerships could step up with a little education on etiquette for new boat owners. Not that it would likely be 100% or even maybe 50% effective but it would be a start.
Old     (stevev210)      Join Date: Feb 2005       09-19-2016, 5:28 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by newwhit View Post
Timelinex,

we are in AZ too. We are usually there mid-week pre or post working hours, but we hit saguaro lake Saturday late afternoon. I usually avoid Saturday's at all costs! Winter is the best time in AZ! We just moved back here a year ago, and when we left eleven years ago, after Labor Day the lakes were always nice and calm and quiet.
When we brave the zoo, We like to run up the lake to a sectioned off no wake zone, anchor, swim and mess around, and then board to the dock after traffic calms down. It was much quieter than most Saturday's in the summer, and we had a good 2 hours before sun down made the whole outing worth it.

People here have no idea. Power turning this way and that, not yielding to boats underway, and just being dumb. We where headed into the dock late Saturday and so were some other boats. We were surfing (along an empty shore, in a straight line &#128516 when one boat passed us going up the lake and three boats tried to pass going same direction as us. Of course my brother fell, right when those three boats tried to pass, at the same time. One boat instead of changing course just powered down and floated 5 feet from him. IDIOTS! At least they puttered by saying how sorry they were...

No etiquette at all. No common sense. Don't get me started with the cluster at the ramp... The worst part, and it says more about me than them, but we saw AT LEAST $1million worth of wake boats all 10 yrs newer than mine, pulling tubes. We saw other 1 wake boarder and one skier All afternoon. Ugh. As long as you are smart and considerate, I don't care what you do, but it does irk me seeing that...
Btw, we pulled a 6 yo, 7 yo, and two 9 year olds wake boarding on Saturday, besides my brother and me. Oh, my 70 yo mother surfed, too. I do think however, that Tubing is unfortunately fun, and has its place.
Saguaro today, we were the only wakeboat on the lake from 6:30 to about 9:30.
Old     (newwhit)      Join Date: Mar 2007       09-19-2016, 5:49 PM Reply   
Nice glass! Thats what we USUALLY do too!

PS- Is it hypocritical for people to whine about whiners?
Old     (ryan_shima1)      Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Layton, Utah       09-19-2016, 7:01 PM Reply   
If a surf boat is driving straight lines, and not power turning to pick up their riders, I got no problem sharing a line with them. I'd rather be able to still get decent water being near a boat that knows how to drive and share a line than that boat, or my boat for that matter, having to go somewhere else because that means eventually, we'll be getting their rollers and vice versa.

And you'd think that surfers realize by now that you don't have to drive in big circles like the old days. Or driving diagonal/perpendicular across the boat path, sending rollers all the way down the course.
Old     (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       09-20-2016, 7:07 AM Reply   
That is the real problem. You can't share a line with a surfer because the stern rollers go straight down the course.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004 Location: Tyler       09-20-2016, 7:31 AM Reply   
stern roller?? now you're just making chit up
Old     (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       09-20-2016, 7:45 AM Reply   
Go to migs photo. And next time you are out watch. Pull your surfer and when he falls stop and look out in front of you. It goes straight down the lane. I've watched a boat stop 1000ft from us and then surf back the other direction and his stern rollers easily got to us.

Have you ever noticed that when you pick up your surfer the boat bounces up and down for several hundred meters?
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004 Location: Tyler       09-20-2016, 7:53 AM Reply   
boats make waves!??! Hold the damn phone!! who knew????

whiny bunch of bitches
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004 Location: Tyler       09-20-2016, 7:54 AM Reply   
you nimrods against ballast too???
Old     (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       09-20-2016, 7:56 AM Reply   
This argument has gone on since the beginning of time. I am starting to feel sorry for the fishermen who used to endure the wakes of the early rising skier who is now faced with these monster waves.

In 15 years we may drown in our own wakes and be banished to stand up paddle boards and canoe's.
Old     (newwhit)      Join Date: Mar 2007       09-20-2016, 9:19 AM Reply   
Nacho seems like a pleasant individual...
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-20-2016, 9:30 AM Reply   
Canoes, fishermen, skiers. wakeboarders and wake surfers. There's your food chain. Did I miss anything? Where do air chairs fit in? Probably anywhere. Those guys never complain. Love those guys...
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       09-20-2016, 9:32 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by srock View Post
This argument has gone on since the beginning of time. I am starting to feel sorry for the fishermen who used to endure the wakes of the early rising skier who is now faced with these monster waves.

In 15 years we may drown in our own wakes and be banished to stand up paddle boards and canoe's.
Actually, I don't feel bad for them at all. I would have in the beginning when the ski guys just started, but now they have the majority of designated areas to work in. I can't speak of your lakes, but fisherman have the most prime coves and spots all to themselves on our lake.

So I can see something like this happening at a later time. There's a reason that the solution ended up being segregation. If you believe that no one activity or sport is 'more important' than the other, it has to work both ways. It also means that 1 person shouldn't be able to ruin it for everyone else on the lake doing one of the sports.

You guys can laugh all you want about 'whiny little bitches', but you will be the first ones whining when they ban all wakemaking activities because of ignorant surfers (notice how I always pre qualify the activity with the word 'ignorant'. This is to reinforce that responsible surfers are NOT the issue).
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       09-20-2016, 9:43 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
Canoes, fishermen, skiers. wakeboarders and wake surfers. There's your food chain. Did I miss anything? Where do air chairs fit in? Probably anywhere. Those guys never complain. Love those guys...
You missed Wake Skater's! Can't forget that Wakeboarding is just considered gymnastics in their eyes

Look. I get it. You guys think this is some funny food chain conspiracy. Everyone sees the irony and it's funny when talked about that way. You don't have to be an enlightened zen master to see it.

You guys keep making it about X sport complaining about X sport. This isn't what I am trying to make it about. This is about making sure ALL our sports are able to continue doing this tomorrow. You think it's an accident that more and more lakes and communities are banning wake sports all of a sudden (as surfing has got exponentially more popular). Even though it's about all our sports, if you don't see that most the 'damage' is being done by 'ignorant' surfers, your not paying attention.

At the end of the day, I still have a great time on the lake because I go and find a different spot or I continue riding until they leave. So I'm not crying about it. i'm trying to figure out a solution to a problem that is most obviously occurring and will make **** hit the fan eventually. Putting your hands over your ears and yelling LA LA LA LA, aint gonna make it go away.
Old     (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Minnesnowda       09-20-2016, 10:26 AM Reply   
This summer the lake I live on exploded with surfers. We literally went form the my boat surfing occasionally and few weekend worriers to A million dollars in new wakesurf boats. Thankfully they are all very fair weather only riders and the lake I live on is Huge. But there have been countless days that we are hiding in a windless area of the lake and the Surf boats just start showing up on after another. Honestly I would rather deal with tubers than surfers. These new whips are tossing such huge wakes that one pass by a surfer leave the wake unridable for a wakeboarder. It's not just the wake they toss it's massive rollers that follow the boat down the lake due to so much water displacement.

I have finally gotten over my angst towards Surfer, it helps that a lot of my buddies are the ones out surfing so I can shoot them a text or a call to chill out for 20 minutes while we as they say, "Long Line it."

There is some humor in the whole thing in it to me as none of the guys with the $100K+ whips can park them or really even drive them.
Old     (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Minnesnowda       09-20-2016, 10:34 AM Reply   
I went on this rant in 2009. http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=712117
Old     (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Minnesnowda       09-20-2016, 10:35 AM Reply   
I've mellowed out about it since then.
Old     (Jmaxymek)      Join Date: Feb 2012       09-20-2016, 10:49 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
Sweet, fellow AZ'r! I'm up north/west so by far the closest lake to me is Lake Pleasant. I totally feel your pain. It seems like in the last year there has been an onslaught of new wakeboard boats on the lake and everyone is either just tubing with them or surfing. Wakeboard boats are the new must have item and the Phoenix/Scottsdale community has ALOT of people with extra money. My friend was recently on a girls Malibu that literally didn't even know how to do any watersports. Just tubed and bought the Malibu because it looked awesome. If they can swing it, nothing wrong with it. But it sure is funny haha.

Anyways, good to meet other local winter riders. We are a rare breed! Most riders seem to be in the mesa/chandler area and not Lake Pleasant. Our friend that was our '3rd' last winter just moved back to California a few weeks ago. Hopefully my other friend decides the cold is worth riding this year!
Minor thread jack but Timeline and Newwhit, I'm in Tempe and more than happy to be a third! I know Bartlett like the back of my hand and have been on Saguaro a handful of times too. Good for gas and a driver and I'm not afraid of the cold

Back to the argument at hand, really I think it boils down to drivers ed. We as wakeboarders create some crazy wakes, but because we spend most of our time trying to run a straight line at higher speed, the impact it has on everyone else on the lake is less than the slow rolling waves the surfers throw. Not to mention they often drive circles or curve that destroy a whole bay. I know CWB did some good etiquette PSAs and NoPowerTurns was a great idea but some kind of real "mandatory" info, even a pamphlet in every new boat or a tutorial built into the dash screens nowadays could help cut down on the amount of unnecessary rollers and help everyone coexist. I'm not any kind of a surfer, there's a time and place for it but 95% of the time I'd rather wakeboard. however everyone's on the lake to have fun and reality is people enjoy surfing, the boat market loves surfing, and realistically waves will only get bigger.
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-20-2016, 10:58 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
You missed Wake Skater's! Can't forget that Wakeboarding is just considered gymnastics in their eyes

Look. I get it. You guys think this is some funny food chain conspiracy. Everyone sees the irony and it's funny when talked about that way. You don't have to be an enlightened zen master to see it.

You guys keep making it about X sport complaining about X sport. This isn't what I am trying to make it about. This is about making sure ALL our sports are able to continue doing this tomorrow. You think it's an accident that more and more lakes and communities are banning wake sports all of a sudden (as surfing has got exponentially more popular). Even though it's about all our sports, if you don't see that most the 'damage' is being done by 'ignorant' surfers, your not paying attention.

At the end of the day, I still have a great time on the lake because I go and find a different spot or I continue riding until they leave. So I'm not crying about it. i'm trying to figure out a solution to a problem that is most obviously occurring and will make **** hit the fan eventually. Putting your hands over your ears and yelling LA LA LA LA, aint gonna make it go away.
Wake skaters can suck it. JK

Wake boarders and skaters are consistantly the ones griping about wake surfers messing up their water so it IS one sport complaining about the other. How well did that work out for the water skiers when wakeboarding came around? Your efforts are futile. If you're ever gonna ban wake surfing, you'll also have to ban any boats like big cruisers too. Some big cruisers make wake surfing wakes look like a small ripple. At least on the delta. Can't speak for small lakes. I might also add I've watched plenty of wake surfing videos (even on WW) where people just cruise by surfing REALLY close to docks. People on their docks don't even seem to mind either. I don't get that.
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       09-20-2016, 11:40 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
Wake skaters can suck it. JK

Wake boarders and skaters are consistantly the ones griping about wake surfers messing up their water so it IS one sport complaining about the other. How well did that work out for the water skiers when wakeboarding came around? Your efforts are futile. If you're ever gonna ban wake surfing, you'll also have to ban any boats like big cruisers too. Some big cruisers make wake surfing wakes look like a small ripple. At least on the delta. Can't speak for small lakes. I might also add I've watched plenty of wake surfing videos (even on WW) where people just cruise by surfing REALLY close to docks. People on their docks don't even seem to mind either. I don't get that.
I give up lol. It just feels like I keep repeating the same thing over and over again to try and make sure you see I am not just hating on surfing, but then it just goes back to the track about boarders hating surfers. Don't lump me in with the crowd that thinks surfers need to stick to chop while we get the butter. Thats ignorant as well. They wrongfully think they deserve the water more than others. Surfing is also better in butter.I will try one last time.

Let me completely change my complaint. I hate any boat drivers that are not cognizant of their wakes and respectful of others. This doesn't mean drivers that won't give up their lines or their sports, but rather this just means they are practicing bad driving habits that help neither other riders or themselves. Powerturning, riding in circles, riding too close to other boats/docks for the size of wake you create, not riding in a relatively straight line in a way that minimizes rollers for the rest of the lake (including yourself). All things that have to do with Ignorance (of the proper techniques and etiquette) versus whether someone has a right to do their sport in an area.

In my admittedly limited experience, I have noticed that most of the issues are usually surfers. NOT ALL surfers, but rather a big portion of ignorant drivers are surfers. Is it because they create the biggest waves which are felt the most? Is it because the sport is so enjoyable and easy for casual boaters that it's done by more casual boaters that don't know etiquette? Is it because most the boats out there are surfing so I just don't notice the wakeboarders? I cannot claim to know this with certainty. All I know is that it is very rare that I am frustrated with a wakeboard driver committing these bad habits. So thats why I addressed this thread about surfers that are ignorant.

Now. It would be nice if every boat came with a pamphlet and every dealer that sold a boat went over these driving techniques and etiquette. I also think we should all do our part and teach any person we know that might not be in the loop on this stuff. This isn't for wakeboarders benefit. This is for EVERYONES benefit. Less injuries from irresponsible driving, less broken docks, less rollers for everyone & less of a chance that all our beloved sports get banned somewhere. I realize that rude people will always exist, but I do believe most of boaters are just lacking education. I know that when I started I committed all these cardinal sins myself and it was mainly because I didn't know any better and noone told me until later. I would definitely have appreciated a guiding hand from a dealer or anywhere else for that matter. I certainly don't purposely want to be a dick and I think MOST people don't either.

I realize that whining on forums doesn't create change. But the right people seeing this might be what creates change. Dealers and riders visit these forums.

Is that better?
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       09-20-2016, 11:46 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevev210 View Post
Saguaro today, we were the only wakeboat on the lake from 6:30 to about 9:30.
Oh man, that looks awesome. You guys get any flack for riding without a third, or is there never anyone out there to say anything on weekdays.... I'm always a little worried about it.

Lake Pleasant is usually pretty great during the week too. It's just hard to get out there, for the same reason others aren't out there haha I can usually do once a week and even if my wife can do it every once in a while, finding a third would be even harder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmaxymek View Post
Minor thread jack but Timeline and Newwhit, I'm in Tempe and more than happy to be a third! I know Bartlett like the back of my hand and have been on Saguaro a handful of times too. Good for gas and a driver and I'm not afraid of the cold
Is lake pleasant too far for you? Do you have a wetsuit for the actual winter time?
Old     (Jmaxymek)      Join Date: Feb 2012       09-20-2016, 1:15 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
Is lake pleasant too far for you? Do you have a wetsuit for the actual winter time?
Pleasant is an hour for me, I'd be down to make the trip. I'll shoot you a PM with my number, and yeah I've got my suit, used it from about Dec-Mar last year
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004 Location: Tyler       09-20-2016, 1:26 PM Reply   
Its an educational problem. I've flagged down boats that were powerturning and explained that if we BOTH wanted to ride the line without blowing it out, we need to SLOW DOWN when turning around for your rider. Most get it and we go on about riding the same line with little to no problem. Most folks aren't *******s, they just haven't been taught how to do it the right way. With a little tutorial, most guys are happy to know a better way. Why not cruise up to them and have a nice friendly chat? They may not give a damn about you or what you say, its a chance you take.

I also find that most surfers don't care about riding a line. so establish yourself in the cove and ride the line want to ride. Don't be stupid or dangerous!! Some boats will get the point and move on, some won't.
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-20-2016, 1:31 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
I give up lol. It just feels like I keep repeating the same thing over and over again to try and make sure you see I am not just hating on surfing, but then it just goes back to the track about boarders hating surfers. Don't lump me in with the crowd that thinks surfers need to stick to chop while we get the butter. Thats ignorant as well. They wrongfully think they deserve the water more than others. Surfing is also better in butter.I will try one last time.

Let me completely change my complaint. I hate any boat drivers that are not cognizant of their wakes and respectful of others. This doesn't mean drivers that won't give up their lines or their sports, but rather this just means they are practicing bad driving habits that help neither other riders or themselves. Powerturning, riding in circles, riding too close to other boats/docks for the size of wake you create, not riding in a relatively straight line in a way that minimizes rollers for the rest of the lake (including yourself). All things that have to do with Ignorance (of the proper techniques and etiquette) versus whether someone has a right to do their sport in an area.

In my admittedly limited experience, I have noticed that most of the issues are usually surfers. NOT ALL surfers, but rather a big portion of ignorant drivers are surfers. Is it because they create the biggest waves which are felt the most? Is it because the sport is so enjoyable and easy for casual boaters that it's done by more casual boaters that don't know etiquette? Is it because most the boats out there are surfing so I just don't notice the wakeboarders? I cannot claim to know this with certainty. All I know is that it is very rare that I am frustrated with a wakeboard driver committing these bad habits. So thats why I addressed this thread about surfers that are ignorant.

Now. It would be nice if every boat came with a pamphlet and every dealer that sold a boat went over these driving techniques and etiquette. I also think we should all do our part and teach any person we know that might not be in the loop on this stuff. This isn't for wakeboarders benefit. This is for EVERYONES benefit. Less injuries from irresponsible driving, less broken docks, less rollers for everyone & less of a chance that all our beloved sports get banned somewhere. I realize that rude people will always exist, but I do believe most of boaters are just lacking education. I know that when I started I committed all these cardinal sins myself and it was mainly because I didn't know any better and noone told me until later. I would definitely have appreciated a guiding hand from a dealer or anywhere else for that matter. I certainly don't purposely want to be a dick and I think MOST people don't either.

I realize that whining on forums doesn't create change. But the right people seeing this might be what creates change. Dealers and riders visit these forums.

Is that better?
The thing you and a lot of others keep failing to realize is this SAME discussion has been going on for 5 DECADES. The only thing that's changed are the so-called sports/activities involved. Like I said before: canoes, fishermen, skiers etc. You'll never get past that. It's almost like a political debate. Notice how we still have two main parties and they almost always disagree? That's been going on for centuries.

Now if I could just form an alliance against those big cruisers on the delta and get them outlawed... LOL.
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-20-2016, 1:39 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
Its an educational problem. I've flagged down boats that were powerturning and explained that if we BOTH wanted to ride the line without blowing it out, we need to SLOW DOWN when turning around for your rider. Most get it and we go on about riding the same line with little to no problem. Most folks aren't *******s, they just haven't been taught how to do it the right way. With a little tutorial, most guys are happy to know a better way. Why not cruise up to them and have a nice friendly chat? They may not give a damn about you or what you say, its a chance you take.

I also find that most surfers don't care about riding a line. so establish yourself in the cove and ride the line want to ride. Don't be stupid or dangerous!! Some boats will get the point and move on, some won't.
All true. A friendly conversation is about the only hope of reconciling any of this and that's only gonna help a little at best. You can't force anyone off the lake because their wake/rollers aren't approved by you. You can only try to appeal to their conscience. Having said that, you'd better have a good alternative spot to displace them to if you're trying to convince them to go elsewhere.
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-20-2016, 1:42 PM Reply   
And how are you gonna convince someone who's wake surfing to move or stop when there's 4 other boats nearby doing the same thing? You're just gonna get laughed at like you're a hall monitor.
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-20-2016, 1:43 PM Reply   
Like I said, it's futile.
Old     (padgett)      Join Date: Sep 2013       09-20-2016, 1:56 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
Sorry guys, but this just sounds like more whining. The usual complaint is how wake surfers should be relegated to the middle of the lake where it's choppy or blown out. Now they're suppossed to go to the edge? Which one is it? Who says it's "your line?" I could understand if you guys were both boarding at the same speed etc, but you're not. Overall, it sounds like you guys just don't have very good places to ride or they're just too small if all it takes is one boat to ruin your day. When we do board, I always try to avoid surfers and tubers and if I can't beat em, I join em since I don't own the lake/river.
I agree with this guy. Tired of all the whining. Hard to complain when it's a public lake/river
Old     (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013 Location: Vancouver WA       09-20-2016, 2:49 PM Reply   
I love to slalom ski, I love to wakeboard, I love to wakesurf.

When we take the boat out, the order of activities follows the logical progression:

We start slalom skiing because it's most benefitted by the smooth water and we obviously start it with NO BALLAST to fill.

Then I typically fill up my 1180 pound center bag that's under my playpen bow. I really like the wake that my boat puts out with just that bag, so I leave it at that and wakeboard next.

Finally, we fill the rest of the ballast and start to surf.


When we were on the water, we get up early to get that smooth water. However, I just can't last more than a few miles on a ski or on a wakeboard before my grip is completely cooked. Typically when we go out, I'm the ONLY one that skis. there might be one other person that wakeboards, and then everyone else surfs. My wife is always with us on the boat, and she only surfs.

So if we run through the the skiing and wakeboarding crew pretty quick, then we really have nothing left to do besides surf. And sometimes that's still during the "smooth water" of the morning, and I feel a tinge of guilt, but what am I supposed to do?? Do I tell my wife to not surf until the water turns to crap? no. of course not.

I mean, look at that mirror glass that my wife's surfing through?!?!?! But I'd already had my ski and wakeboard sessions and it was her turn to get a chance behind the boat. It is what it is.


There's a couple of observations I've made about "lines" when towing a surfer. I think we can all agree that not power turning and easing back to your rider when surfing is especially important. But I've found that when I get to the end of a "line" I've got to make a large, sweeping turn to allow my wife the opportunity to stay in the wave while I turn. I can't just crank a turn like I would for a wakeboarder and quickly cross my rollers and get back into my own path. With a surfer, if you turn to sharp, they won't be able to stay in the wave. If you hit your own rollers too soon, they might not be able to ride through them.

As far as others doing ignorant stuff in the pristine spot when there's other water that would be plenty good for the other boat, I've had a couple times where I went into the slough off the main channel of the river. The main channel wasn't "bad" but had just enough activity from tugboats and barges that it would ruin my ski or wakeboard sets. So there's a single boat in the slough and they start zig-zagging back and forth destroying the perfect water pulling their tube. The only effective form of communication was me flipping them off. Do I feel good about it? No. But surprisingly after I skied by them giving them the finger in no uncertain terms, they pulled their tuber the other direction and we never saw them again. it's not my river, but for some reason expressing my frustration and letting them know they weren't wanted actually worked. It's happened twice where the other boater disappeared after getting the bird. Go figure.

But I know that I kill things for the slalom guys that show up AFTER me when we've already moved on to surfing. I feel bad, but there's not really much I can do aside from not power turning.
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-20-2016, 4:42 PM Reply   
Power turning while surfing is a good way to bring an instant aquarium on board.
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-20-2016, 4:44 PM Reply   
Nice butter you're surfing through there, Trayson. So YOU'RE THE PROBLEM!!!
Old     (BrettLee3232)      Join Date: Feb 2015       09-20-2016, 8:00 PM Reply   
How about the surfers/boarders who go the opposite way in a cove? Really pisses me off. I boat in a big lake so the safest place to do water sports is in a cove. Sometimes 2-3 boats surfing. It gets rough but you deal with it or find another cove. Then you have the *******s who don't know proper cove etiquette and drive the wrong way. Ughhhhhh
Old     (newwhit)      Join Date: Mar 2007       09-20-2016, 10:26 PM Reply   
Timelinex, I knew what you meant from the beginning I get most frustrated with UNSAFE boating, which is fairly common, as in my example above. Only once or twice did I "report" someone to a ranger, and only once did I see said ranger talking to that boat. Mind you, not a snitch, but real dangerous situations were reported, substance abuse was definitely an issue once...

I have had good and bad examples of trying to talk some sense into these people with mixed results. In fact, I got waved down once at Powell, it was before I had my own boat, probably 15 years ago. He KINDLY explained following lines and power turning, and how to "share" water. We even got a guy to come on our boat from his and coach us for a few sets, as we had never seen someone complete an invert or a 360 in real life. Taught us loading the line, progressive edge, all those buzz words. He even taught us how to trim the out drive for maximum wake. Seriously changed my life. He is affectionately known as "BRian the wake lord" to my family and friends, and we make sacrifices in his honor every time we are at Powell...

---Jordan, we will have to hook up sometime...

Last edited by newwhit; 09-20-2016 at 10:29 PM. Reason: .???
Old     (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       09-21-2016, 7:06 AM Reply   
I don't think it is up for debate. We can't coexist. If a surfboat shows up, wakeboarders are 100% shut down. It is like when a paddleboarder shows up to the line up. Yes, you can take the pick of the set, every set because you are lined up 50ft behind everyone, but that doesn't mean you should. Animosity builds when one boat can ruin they day for many. It is a matter of using your head. If you are on a river, just stay away from each other. On a lake respect that someone was there first and if you are there first, make friends and take some downtime to let the water rest. If you are dying to ride and there are 3 wake boats there, maybe you should knock the dust off your bindings for a bit.
Old     (larry1167)      Join Date: Jun 2010       09-21-2016, 7:52 AM Reply   
I skied the Delta quite a bit in the early 90's and I don't remember the hate being as bad between skiers and boarders. There were way less boats on the water in those days so that helped and we all coexisted. Primarily skied Railroads and we would wait for boats to either clear the slough or get far
enough ahead for the wake to dissipate in the reeds. As mentioned a million times, the wake does not dissipate when wake surfing so coexisting on a slough in the Delta is way more difficult than it once was. I still primarily ski and board. I decided years ago not to get frustrated with what other boats
are doing and just enjoy the good days that much more. It also helps that in NorCal we can ride year round. I don't expect good water from Memorial Day to Labor Day unless we are dawn patrol. Set your expectations for the time of year before you go out. It might help.

You can try to fight the good fight, but expecting everyone on the water to be courteous is just not gonna happen.
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       09-21-2016, 10:26 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiboarder View Post
If you are dying to ride and there are 3 wake boats there, maybe you should knock the dust off your bindings for a bit.
That is exactly what I do. I'm still beginner-ish (just learned first invert) so I got alot to learn! When it gets super choppy I just take it as an opportunity to practice switch riding, cuffed riding, ollie's, etc.. Also, I'll sometimes slow the boat down to 17mph or so and practice grabbing different tricks on 1 wake. Choppiness isn't too bad when your not going to fast or cutting hard.

So I do try to make the best of it. The main times it is frustrating is when unsafe or bad etiquette is causing the situation. As opposed to winds, high traffic, or just someone else getting the spot first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newwhit View Post
Timelinex, I knew what you meant from the beginning I get most frustrated with UNSAFE boating, which is fairly common, as in my example above. Only once or twice did I "report" someone to a ranger, and only once did I see said ranger talking to that boat. Mind you, not a snitch, but real dangerous situations were reported, substance abuse was definitely an issue once...

I have had good and bad examples of trying to talk some sense into these people with mixed results. In fact, I got waved down once at Powell, it was before I had my own boat, probably 15 years ago. He KINDLY explained following lines and power turning, and how to "share" water. We even got a guy to come on our boat from his and coach us for a few sets, as we had never seen someone complete an invert or a 360 in real life. Taught us loading the line, progressive edge, all those buzz words. He even taught us how to trim the out drive for maximum wake. Seriously changed my life. He is affectionately known as "BRian the wake lord" to my family and friends, and we make sacrifices in his honor every time we are at Powell...

---Jordan, we will have to hook up sometime...
Luckily, I have rarely ever seen someone do something down right dangerous. Alot of unsafe actions that could end up bad if things go wrong, but rarely ever straight up dangerous. One time I did have some idiot come into the wakeboarding cove and fly around in circles tugging a tubeer at around 30mph. He was coming within feet of other boats and downed riders. THAT was downright dangerous. Luckily that's as bad as I've seen.

I love the story of Brian the wake lord. I feel like this is exactly something my crew would have happen and then joke about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrettLee3232 View Post
How about the surfers/boarders who go the opposite way in a cove? Really pisses me off. I boat in a big lake so the safest place to do water sports is in a cove. Sometimes 2-3 boats surfing. It gets rough but you deal with it or find another cove. Then you have the *******s who don't know proper cove etiquette and drive the wrong way. Ughhhhhh
That remind me of another thing. We have only 1 small cove dedicated to board sports. The other thing I see all the time is WAKEBOARD BOATS going into the middle of the cove and having a swim there. Blows my mind. They are getting rocked all over the place and causing other boats to have to really pay attention to not get too close. Nothing phases them though. Even when some not so nice boats get extremely close to them. Just another day on the lake.
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       09-22-2016, 7:52 PM Reply   
So glad I'm not on your boat timex. A day on the lake should be your best day. Maybe those boats having fun with nothing phasing them have something you can use... Live and let live.

We ride on a busy lake too. Figure it out or find a new spot.

No need to reply with more of the same.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004 Location: Tyler       09-23-2016, 9:02 AM Reply   
yea, its pretty basic. the lake isn't yours, respect others and hope they do the same.
Old     (snork)      Join Date: Jun 2007       09-25-2016, 11:44 AM Reply   
You cant fix stupidity, just look at all the Furking Hillary supporters, now they're a bunch of idiots I'd stay far far away from while on the lake
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       09-26-2016, 8:58 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabledog View Post
So glad I'm not on your boat timex. A day on the lake should be your best day. Maybe those boats having fun with nothing phasing them have something you can use... Live and let live.

We ride on a busy lake too. Figure it out or find a new spot.

No need to reply with more of the same.
I find it funny that the same people that say 'live and let live' are the first ones complaining when someone rains on their parade. Even if you legitimately wouldn't be upset about people raining on your parade......When someone starts dunking your boat, crashes into your boat or almost running over your rider; We will see how much you stand by your 'live and let live'.
Old     (501s)      Join Date: Feb 2010       09-26-2016, 9:32 AM Reply   
Last night my son and I were out on the lake just anchored and doing some fishing. He had just gone for a wakeboard and the whole lake was glass. As in the lake was a mirror! Our lake is 9 miles long and 3 miles wide so its a decent size. Than one surf boat came out and drove right in the middle of the lake doing circles pulling a surfer. Within minutes, our boat was rocking back and forth like crazy and the water sucked for wakeboarding. My 8 year old looked to me and said "wow dad, I'm sure glad I rode when I did". Like not even worth going out choppy. I will take wind chop every day of the week over a surf boat driving circles, it really does mess up a huge area of the lake.

Yes, yes, I know they have every right, its a public lake, we all have to share, etc... But to pretend that they have little effect on others or that its the same as a wakeboarder or skier is just not true. We could have had 3 or 4 boats doing ski lines and wakeboard lines and it would have been calmer than one surf boat. And don't get me wrong, we do surf once in a while, its fun, but I'm also aware of what it does to a perfectly calm lake.
Attached Images
 
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004 Location: Tyler       09-26-2016, 9:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
When someone starts dunking your boat, crashes into your boat or almost running over your rider; We will see how much you stand by your 'live and let live'.
Wow! now they're crashing into your boat and endangering your rider? things really escalated!

501 no pic of the blown out hell hole it became? You think it would've been much different if a ballasted towboat started doing circles in the middle of the lake?
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       09-26-2016, 12:36 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
Wow! now they're crashing into your boat and endangering your rider? things really escalated!
When they are coming within 10 feet of my boat with their enormous wave, they are most definitely endangering my rider and they are most definitely within reasonable range to call it a crash risk.

Remember, my post was NOT whining that someone got my line before me. It was about dangerous driving and poor etiquette. I've tried to make this clear many times. The only reason surfers were singled out in a way is because in my limited experience it has mostly been surfers that are the issue ( new ridesr start with surfing, the wave is just that much bigger, etc..)

but live and let live you say. As long as he isn't running me over and killing me, it's not my problem
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-26-2016, 12:57 PM Reply   
Is anyone else as bored to tears as me with this thread? ZZZZZZZ
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004 Location: Tyler       09-26-2016, 1:07 PM Reply   
yes!!!
Old     (theloungelife)      Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Salt Lake City, UT       09-26-2016, 1:15 PM Reply   
What if all this really comes down to is experience. Tons of wakesurfers might have no prior experience wakeboarding/skiing. They buy some crazy boat, go out with their buds amd have no clue. It's not inentional usually. Just lack of knowledge. I bet very few if any of the surfers on WW are the ones f*ing the lake.
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       09-26-2016, 5:23 PM Reply   
Yep, I'm another guy with a wife that only wants to wakesurf and constantly tells me it's her right to do where others want to Ski or board. Luckly I can usually trick her into doing it where the water is already hammeredt by tubers or jet skis. It takes a little clever planning but it can be done. I have also sinned... I have been surfing down a smooth channel but I will stop and move if I see a boarder or skier show up. Hopefully I have not completely trashed the slough already as migs clearly shows in his illustration. Normally I am on the other end of the spectrum wanting to ski or board when one of the water destroyers are hammering a perfect slough.
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       09-26-2016, 8:13 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
When they are coming within 10 feet of my boat with their enormous wave, they are most definitely endangering my rider and they are most definitely within reasonable range to call it a crash risk.

Remember, my post was NOT whining that someone got my line before me. It was about dangerous driving and poor etiquette. I've tried to make this clear many times. The only reason surfers were singled out in a way is because in my limited experience it has mostly been surfers that are the issue ( new ridesr start with surfing, the wave is just that much bigger, etc..)

but live and let live you say. As long as he isn't running me over and killing me, it's not my problem
.
Attached Images
  
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       09-26-2016, 8:21 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 501s View Post
Last night my son and I were out on the lake just anchored and doing some fishing. He had just gone for a wakeboard and the whole lake was glass. As in the lake was a mirror! Our lake is 9 miles long and 3 miles wide so its a decent size. Than one surf boat came out and drove right in the middle of the lake doing circles pulling a surfer. Within minutes, our boat was rocking back and forth like crazy and the water sucked for wakeboarding. My 8 year old looked to me and said "wow dad, I'm sure glad I rode when I did". Like not even worth going out choppy. I will take wind chop every day of the week over a surf boat driving circles, it really does mess up a huge area of the lake.

Yes, yes, I know they have every right, its a public lake, we all have to share, etc... But to pretend that they have little effect on others or that its the same as a wakeboarder or skier is just not true. We could have had 3 or 4 boats doing ski lines and wakeboard lines and it would have been calmer than one surf boat. And don't get me wrong, we do surf once in a while, its fun, but I'm also aware of what it does to a perfectly calm lake.
I've never understood the go in circles thing. We try to hold a straight run for the rider no matter what we're towing. Double up sure. But no circles.
Old     (granddaddy53)      Join Date: Dec 2013       09-26-2016, 10:39 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by migs View Post
Pic to prove it.
Yes we all remember your very significant sketches and mock ups, you do it well but let's face it your doomed as most are buying these new boats to surf

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