Competition protests

well how come it seems things are missed more in this sport than others? when snowboarding is on tv at the olympics, i dont hear 30 minutes later the winner is not who we gave the gold medal to, the gold goes to who we said was 2nd...unless they fail a drug test. and philip made mention that wakeboarding moms and dads had inside information not meant for the public. WTF?
is it like that movie with jack nickelson. "you want the truth? you cant handle the truth!" ??? why is anything hidden?

since you're being a grammar police, you misused a comma in your post.

No Mike, I'm pretty sure I got it. Look, I know you love bodybuilding and whey protein and all that stuff, and I realize that you've worked with all kinds of famous people and I bet that Lou Ferigno calls you at home on the weekends, but the problem is that you're comparing apples to oranges.

I'm sure that some bad decisions have been made in the past and that some bad decisions will be made in the future. But wakeboarding is a very, very small niche sport at best. What do think the payoff would be for event organizers to engage in the corrupt behavior that you're not-so-subtlety accusing them of? You think that there would be a bag of cash for the judge that put a rider through to the finals when he didn't deserve it? Give me a break...these days, the tour is lucky to have a boat for those judges to sit in. People just happen to make mistakes, and if they have a chance to correct those mistakes, then by all means, let them do it.

Which brings me to my next point. I understand what you were getting at about "opening up to the fans" but get real: threads like this are the exact reason that some stuff should be kept behind closed doors. It seems that everyone knows someone who knows something and before you know it, it's a game of telephone and people's names are getting unnecessarily drug through the mud. Think about it; if nobody but the riders and organizers knew about any of this, what would be lost? The outcome would be the exact same, but there would be a lot less internet mudslinging and trash talking from people that have no control over the situation anyway. Is the system perfect? No. Can changes be made to make it better? Sure. I'm waiting for you to give some suggestions, but I haven't heard any yet, you just preach about how messed up everything and how something needs to change NOW, NOT LATER.

And finally, this "I pay your salary" attitude that you're throwing out there just makes you look ignorant at best and a complete jackass at worst. If you think that the absence of you and your daughter at a tour stop is going to send any pro riders to the unemployment line, then you're mixing that protein shake with some pretty hard liquor. Get over yourself and let the professionals run the contests.

(Message edited by anthemwake on August 18, 2009)

This sport has been ran by the exact same people for many years now and no matter how much they say they change, they don't. The same people make the final decisions. And until that changes, this kind of problem will exist. Just curious, if it was a virtually unknown rider protesting how do you think it would go for him. Go back and take a look at who is actually protesting and tell me if it's a big name or not. Just curious.

ok, you missed the point. and maybe that is my fault. first, how much money was in bodybuilding? peanuts. the supplement companies made the money not the bodybuilders. (sound familiar?) what i am trying to say is in todays world of professional sports, things need to be run like a top notch business. sports is business. mistakes are not acceptable in business. i went to my first pro tour this year at knoxville. i was like where are all the fans? i have a wakeboarding friend that lives there and i know there is a huge wakeboarding community there. i was like, where is everybody? the sport will not grow unless the powers that be run the sport in a professional business like manor. my point was it could end up like bodybuilding and fizzle out all together. or it could take the high road and be NASCAR like. i live near Mountain Creek in NJ ( i live across the boarder in NY). they get a TON of people when they have a big contest there. i expected that type of crowd in Knoxville. so to wrap this up, i have ideas on how to fix things but i am not giving them out just yet.

i posted my post before reading randy stewarts post. to me, that explains everything....and makes it totally understandable why there is a problem.

anthemwake... that was awesome!

I don't know much, but I feel this thread isn't serving the PWT or it's riders very well. Most of the riders are grown men and can fight for themselves if they find it necessary. One vote here to delete this thread, Mr. Williams. There is enough negative stuff going on in the sports world.

Don't delete. Thats not the answer. Let talk about it.

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quote:

By Elizabeth (lizzyb) on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 2:13 pm:

anthemwake... that was awesome!

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+1

excellent post anthemwake!

i dont see it as negative. all new sports go through growing pains and the pros cant speak up or they will get blacklisted. Tiger Woods cant even speak against the PGA or he will get fined, and god knows he has the money to pay it.

Wrong Pro Bryan. Look again.............. Not that it matters....

^^^^ I saw that

Randy, I know it's not the answer. I would love to read some thoughtful answers for this problem. I don't have any, I know that. But there are some people on this board who know a lot about wake comps who can speak to this.

I liked this thread better when it was about the pwnage of Cbutler.

How many people even know about protesting if Chris doesn't announce how his kid and her bff are being wronged by the tour.

Bodybuilding, Nascar...still uber corrupt, more than ever imo.

Like I said wrong place to be talking about this stuff. All of the protesting/polìtics should be kept behind the scenes.

Any smart person can see that it does'nt work very well right now and something has to be done. I'd like to see someone from the WWA higher ups talk about this and see what would help this sport. Years ago 60 to 70 Jr. riders would show up for atleast Nationals. Now what is it.? I don't think it's fair to blame it all on the economy. It's been coming and now it's here. This sport might just fade away if someone does'nt revive it. I don't have the answers but it definately is time for some change. Real change that matters. Otherwise it's doomed. Look at all these riders that give their lives and their bodies to this sport. They deserve a fair shake at this.

Why? some of the most respected riders in this sport/hobby hardly ride in the contest arena.

Econcomy is killing the sport and don't let anyone tell you different.

I don't think the sport will fade away, the comps might, but not the sport.

Your right. People will still ride but the Competitions will suffer the most. These Riders can hardly afford to get to them anyway. Why would they want to spend all that money if these things are happening. Big turn off. WWA, please listen to the people.

Yes alot of riders aren't 100% happy with the tour and some don't even want to ride it but its like that with snowboarding and skateboarding too. Not all pros fit the tournament profile. Tours are great for growing a sport but nothing can beat you and your friends hitting a glass lake with a loaded out boat or a trip with your friends to the cable. Once your there you ride how you want to ride and do tricks you like to do. At the tour they try their best to come up with things to judge by but its never perfect. However, the tour grows the sport, gives the pros a paycheck, and without it there would be alot less pro riders and alot less progression overall. The tour doesn't = progression, but it does bring money from the sponsors to the riders which allows these guys to get really good and progress the sport.

good read... i agree with mr. butler. once a score is posted for the public. it's final. no questions asked.people forget how small this community is.... the riders, judges, event staff, boat drivers.... they are all friends and co workers.

everyone is there to work and get paid. everyone.

i dont hate on danny for what he did... especially if it is the norm to protest and get your score bumped. he is there to win, uphold his sponsors obligations, stoke out his fans and sell boards.

hopefully it blows over.... but something needs to change.

Biggest Raley Wins!

By Knee Brace Boy (wstr01) on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 3:06 pm:

"I don't think the sport will fade away, the comps might, but not the sport."

I agree, if the comps fade away, are you going to stop wakeboarding?

John Anderson... Chuckle, Chuckle!! I hope I'm not the only person that got your post...

read the 1st post. this is not about wakeboarding. its about how the pro series is run.

There is a huge problem with using a 'x trick is worth x points' system. Different tricks come easier/harder for different people. Who's to say whether a whirly 5 or a toe 7 is harder? Depends on the rider. Ill use myself as an example: My first mobe was a Pete Rose. That's pretty uncommon, I just had really solid/lofty toeside roll to reverts. It was a couple of years later before I learned a crow mobe (one of the more common mobe firsts). What about grabbing? If you assign an X amount added for grabbing a trick what if rider A slaps the board while rider B does a solid grab and bones it out and they both do the same invert/spin - is that accounted for the same? Or tricks done switch? I have only seen some riders do certain tricks switch - IE Phil and JD doing switch toe 7's. Should they get extra points for doing it 'switch'? What if doing it switch is easier for them that way? And lets get real - the level of riding is so high with these guys the only way someone should be given credit for a 'switch' trick is if they do it, both regular and switch, in the same run - ala Rathy doing Pete and a switch Pete.

The fact is there is always a level of subjectivity in the riding, and there should be. What should hardly EVER happen is for one of the judges to totally miss something. And if it does, the rider being bumped out of advancing should definitely be given notice and allowed to be a part of the score changing before getting a 'surprise' the next day or a phone call.

The main problem I see with this whole deal is EVERYONE IS SO GOOD now. Everyone is throwing hammers every weekend. It used to be the spread was more obvious - you might have one of a handful of guys have a great weekend, throw a 9, some mobes and slide well and clearly be the winner. Now you've got 7-8 guys that come out and consistently string together the hardest tricks in the sport. That makes it tough.

(Message edited by focker on August 19, 2009)

Kill this thread? Sounds like the lefts response to health care debate
This is great stufff. Ask any entertainer (pro sports is entertainment) and they love it that people are talking about them. Someone once said "I don't care if they are talking bad about me as long as they are taslking about me." This is the hottest thread going. Dave has to love it and it does not hurt the sport.

And there are no parents of pro riders on here defending their "kids" except Chris. And there is nothing wrong with that. Refreshing to see a rider or parent not afraid to speak up.

I learned a new word. Shambolic.

* Main Entry: sham·bol·ic
* Pronunciation: \sham-ˈbä-lik\
* Function: adjective
* Etymology: probably from shambles
* Date: 1970

chiefly British : obviously disorganized or confused

You would be shocked to learn of many instances in the judges tower where the decision was made to advance the rider with the bigger name, or with sponsors who also sponsor the PWT, instead of who won on the score sheets. Often times when the judges disagree as to who had the better run, that is the deciding factor. Good for the sponsors, not good for the sport. And I agree with Chris, CoBra has gotten screwed by this time and again.

I have been away from the computer for the past few days and have just been checking this on my phone, but if you think the bigger name or who the rider is sponsored by has ANYTHING to do with who gets through, you are on crack. I'm not saying the system may not have flaws but it is definitely not corrupt. That is one thing I know you don't have to worry about.

It is sad that Ratthay didn't get a chance to duke it out in the finals, but the judges saw a mistake and fixed it. Period. It happens. It's gonna happen again. They're only human and doing a really hard job. I would never want to be a judge. If you think you or someone you know could do better have them go to the judges clinic at the World's next week. But I can personally vouch for EVERY judge on tour. They are ALL standup guys and are doing a really hard job for not much pay. I can be a very thankless job!

Travis, funny. I have been present when judges past and present have bitched about their sheets getting overridden plenty. Admittedly, the crack was strong on those occasions, but it doesnt change the fact that it happens.

You arent driving the boat from the judges tower, so I dont know how you would know whether what I say is true or not. I could care less how the PWT runs its operations, but it does effect the livelihood of friends of mine, and I know it matters to them.

So you are telling me that an event organizer puts through whoever they want regardless of what a judge thinks is right? You're an idiot hiding behind a fake name. I'm not gonna argue with you. It's pointless.

The bottom line is you want the judging to be correct. If a judge missed a trick, wrote it down wrong or if there is an adding error, it should be fixed before results are posted. There should be a review system in place where every sheet is reviewed by different judges. This would help with the addition errors but not the "missing the trick" problem. By all means, a rider should be allowed to protest or have their sheet reviewed per request. Unfortunately, a rider only knows if he should protest after the scores are posted/known. Maybe video is not a bad idea for these issues.

no doubt when kelly surfs in the WCT he gets extra points for being kelly. i think few people would say tour judges are outright corrupt, just the way things go sometimes.

drop the wakeboards and hysteria for a weekend - go surf hurricane bill.

"If a judge missed a trick, wrote it down wrong or if there is an adding error, it should be fixed before results are posted."

exactly.

if the error was caught after the results are posted, do they then say "oh well, too late"?

^^^
yeah, I think that would then be the case. it happens in all the major sports, why should wakeboarding be any different??
chances are the mistake can be caught on the review, and quickly changed prior to posting final results.

you're comparing wake to major sports?

nope. I am just saying that mistakes can happen anywhere.
are you saying the judging should be 100% perfect?

no, i'm not saying that at all. see my first post above. i'm saying if they have the opportunity to fix a wrong, by all means, do it!

video seems the way to go.... everyone else uses it

I agree Joe. just make sure you fix it, before you post official results is all.
no reason whatsoever that the scenario Dave brought up about Austin should EVER happen.

Double check the addition and perhaps have more than one judge on the boat writing down the tricks to try and avoid "missing" a trick. Style, composition, amplitude and whatever else makes up the score is subjective and the judges calling their part should be final. I don't see how you can protest something subjective. You have got to find a way to cut down on the errors that lead to protests. But as stated before, mistakes can and will happen.

Train -- You used the magic word "official" which should mean the results are the results, period. Post the "unofficial" results first and let the protesting and reviews be determined and then they won't have these problems.

Like I mentioned before. Wakeboarding is subjective and will always be subjective! No matter what is done their will always be b&*ching. And yes, the big names get the breaks in all sports. Remember Shaun White and the X-games this year? A lot of people complained, but since it is subjective you cannot say who's run is better.

One thing is for sure....people love to get stirred up and propose the supposed "Fix All" to the problem. I am going riding tomorrow and that is all that matters!

Haha!

i was going to offer to be a judge because i doubt i would make a mistake, but if the sponsors are just going to override me then forget it.

there are so many really rich people in wakeboarding. somebody should just talk their dad into backing them to start a new "Pro Tour of Wakeboarding" and make it luuuuhjit. i'll be glad to help.

i think if people have that big of problem with the way the judging system is than they should step up their own game and try joining the tour. its always easy to complain and moan when its not you in the position. i understand you are nicolas dad, and of course you are biased to how her feelings are in the sport, but you also have two of the best riders on tour in here telling you that the same thing has happened to them. danny and phil i'm with you completely,its not just wakeboarding it happens in. it could happen in any sport, basketball- a weak foul called, baseball- ball called a strike. everyone complains in every sport, especially their whiney parents. .02

Other than a few isolated incidents, it seems like the current method of judging for the PWT seems to work pretty well. Although I've heard some grumbling, this seems to be the first major mistake that has been made. Considering how many contests they've done over the years, I'd say that's a pretty good track record.

I've been in the boat during these events and there are several judges and they usually work together and compare notes to make sure that tricks aren't missed. I don't know how formal the process is, but they really should be checking with each other to make sure tricks weren't missed, especially for the riders that are on the bubble. I'm assuming this is, in fact, what they've been doing all these years and, again, it seems to be working well.

Obviously, it didn't work well in Reno and perhaps some more formal rules should be in place to make sure this doesn't happen again, but to suggest that the entire method of judging should be changed just because of one rare oversight seems a little extreme. That would be like overhauling an entire healthcare system when 90% of the people using it are happy with it! Oops, sorry about that. I got my wakeboarding politics confused with country politics. I'll shut up now!

The pro wakeboard tour is so small in the scope of professional sports that it simply can not afford a more formal process of judging like the MLB of NFL. The NBA example above has a large pool of officials to draw from and they are constantly evaluated and rotated around venues to minimize any personal biases. There are limits on how well they can be acquainted with the players and team and the officiating, though not perfect is pretty darn good when you have the resources. The wakeboard tour might be able to tinker with the format and rules but it would have to grow 10x more popular with 10x the budget to get to the level of judging the major sports enjoy.

Personally as a fan, I am glad the wakeboard tourneys are not like the NBA. You can walk up to the top pros in this sport at any venue I have been and have a normal conversation. I haven't met one that had a bad attitude. The last tourney I was at we were scrounging up players for a pick up volley ball game, and Murray, Hair, Smeele, and a couple of others jumped right in and hit it around. It certainly lifted my day and everyone elses that played. If the judging is not perfect because of how the tour is now, it is a small price to pay as a fan. I do empathize with a contestant that may have been the best that day and didn't go home with the goods to proove it, but as a fan I can't say the judging or actually who won is the major reason I go to the events. It is to hang with friends and watch the spectacular things these boys and girls can do behind a boat.

OK- this thread is zooming to the top with 210 post in less than a week. New Jersey Riders 2009 has 337 but they have been on here since January and whos rockin 50 has 296 but they have been on since July 4th. That is just the post so I wonder how many people have been reading this.

Dave- what post has the record for most post? How many views has this post gotten? I would think you have to love a post that brings people back to read what is going on. I know I make a point to read WW twice a day now just to read this post,

Come on folks, lighten up and enjoy this. What reality shows succeed? Ones with a little drama. American Idol has Simon to hate but without him it would not garner half the audience. Thanks Mr Butler for stirring the pot. Nicola will not be hurt by this in my opinion. The wakbeoard folks are too chill to take it out on a great rider like her and they are pretty legit guys.

This is what I would like to see corrected:

The judges take a little more time to make sure they have it right before posting. Especially semi's and finals (14 riders)

When somebody goes to protest absolutely NOTHING happens until the other rider is present. How can somebody be allowed to argue their case uncontested for 40 minutes and the first you hear of it is when the result is overturned? Thats like being summoned to court to hear your sentence for a crime you have been accused of and sentenced for without you even being aware of the accusation.It is just ridiculous.

Am I being unreasonable? Is this not doable?

^^^Agreed. Anyone affected by a decision should be present and able to state their case. This should be a rule written down and followed.

Dave-"Although I've heard some grumbling, this seems to be the first major mistake that has been made. Considering how many contests they've done over the years, I'd say that's a pretty good track".

You're missing the point. There was no mistake. If the scoring had NOT been changed then that would have been a mistake. The rider who rode better was the rider who advanced. As Phillip said," Things like this happen BUT they are not something that should be brought out and discussed publicly. We have the best judges in the world, they know exactly what they are seeing everytime."
Bottom line, the system does work. If it weren't for Twitter nobody would even know about the changing of the scores, they would just be seeing that the rider who rode the best in that heat advanced.

absolutely. and no one said throw everything out and start over. not even me. but for those that have the chill attitude,saying dont worry about it,that doesnt work for pros when a mistake can cost them thousands of dollars. no,it's not A-Rod money, but it is still a sizable chunk of money.not to mention how the outcome can effect their sponsorships.
and i would like to know,if a judge misses something,how do you give credit for something you didnt see? and how many points is that?
let's go to the video tape...

Thank you Danny and Phillip, for injecting some common sense into this thread. Amazing... And all of this stuff is taking away from some other amazing achievements on the weekend.

"I missed that" and "I wasn't concentrating" has nothing to do with subjectivity. That's called falling asleep at your post.

No, I'm not missing the point. I'm not saying that the judging error should stand. I'm saying that they should have done a better job of comparing notes when tallying the scores. That way the error would have been caught before the premature announcement of the results and this whole issue would have been avoided. The tournament results would be the same, but the controversy would have been avoided. We're on the same page on this issue.

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quote:

no one said throw everything out and start over

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Actually, several people suggested just that, including the change to a format where each trick is awarded a set point value and getting rid of any subjectivity. My point was that the system works pretty darn good as is and could work even better with just a few tweaks.

I'm going to go the complete opposite direction and throw out some major kudos to all the judges for doing such a great job over the years that you pretty much went unnoticed!! Unfortunately, we've all taken for granted your quality work over the years because we never had to give it a second thought since everything went smoothly. Here's to you for making it this far without a major controversy. I think if we only have this problem every 10 years, then you're doing an awesome job!!

I don't think you can make judging fair under any circumstances but retracting scores makes the comp look amateur.

(Message edited by formfunction on August 19, 2009)

^Love your positive outlook Brock. Some of it might be all about the business but it takes business to get the sponsors involved and make the tour happen and that grows the sport.

I refuse to believe is all about the business. I'm sure some of its about that but this sport is too small for it not to be influenced somewhat by the riders. If it was all about the business why switch to the new scoring system at all a couple years ago?

Chris, or Mr. Butler, you're a builder, I see that in your profile. If somebody has a problem with a job you've done, and they go to a nearby park and complain to all the people in the park about your building, will that help you change how you do things or fix the problem?

I assume the answer to that would be no. Why then, are you putting so much time into arguing your point in here? Nothing will come of this but some empathy and some scars on your reputation. Talk to the right people about it if you really feel so strongly about the matter.

Now, did anybody see how smooth the water was in Reno? That was sweet. All those guys rode really well, it was fun to watch a competition in great water to see what the guys could really throw down.

We live in an awesome time for wakeboarding, yeah!

"If somebody has a problem with a job you've done, and they go to a nearby park and complain to all the people in the park about your building, will that help you change how you do things or fix the problem? "

Actually if all that guy did was complain to everybody he saw how bad of a job the builder did until the job got fixed I bet it would get fixed real fast.

He'd destroy his reputation of course. But he'd get the job fixed.

Thanks Dave for pointing that out about the judges. You haven't seen anyone on this post whose closely involved criticizing the judges, just the protesting format.

I remember the days when it wasn't so. Friends judging friends, sponsors in the judges booth reviewing the scores before they were announced, big name guys always getting thu. I think todays judges and format is legit. I think the scoring system is solid and the judges fair. I like the layout of the course and the obstacles.

From what Chris has said and a few of the others is let all riders be present during a protest. Suggestions.
1- After the heat and when the scores are sent up to the booth, have the riders of the heat present. Any dispute can be handled right then. Plus- the riders can help with any dispute. They all watch each ride in their heat very closely and no one is better qualified. Pros only. Not good idea with amateurs.
2- Post the score sheets publicly. Let everyone see how they were judged. Show the tricks by category and where the judge ranked them. Allow 30 minutes to dispute any trick that is not listed or is listed incorrectly or if scores were added wrong.

The protest have been an issue for quite a while. It just took a high profile and explosive one like Rathey to get the attention of the ww readers. This has been an issue for as long as I can remember. I have been to 8 or 9 of these over the years and this is not uncommon. You just don't hear about it when a big name protest in semis or qtrs and knocks out a lesser known.

I think I have made some reasonable requests as to the way people protest.

Imagine if nobody ever said anything in case people didn't like them?

Somebody said something about my daughters cause? You honestly think that the judges are going to cheat her because they don't like her dad? That is the biggest insult to them of all.

Take a little longer to check the scores before they are posted.

Make sure both riders are in attendance before any protest starts.

If that is unreasonable then I am unreasonable.

what Roger and Chris said in the last 2 posts are reasonable requests. and simple to implement. again , the system just needs a few tweaks, thats all. its that difficult

its not that difficult... is what i meant to say in my last line....

Video. Video. Video. End of discussion. What would it hurt. Get someone in the boat with a darn camera. It's way easier to show a rider why they lost rather then just tell them.

I am not saying for the PWT to use a point system like INT, however, having a call judge to call the tricks and a recorder to write the tricks down like INT does would help out tremendously. Also, at INT Nationals they use video in the boat to help with any protest in the Pro Division. I think the PWT should adopt some of these practices.

I know the IWSF will not use video evedence. WWA is probably the same. Can you imagine how long it would take? And if people knew that option was available it might encourage even more protests?

Just a thought.

Oops,...

Bumped into the wrong dang thread,.. sorry gang,..

Poor judgment on my part