a moomba guys axis experience

some how ive become the moomba spokesman on the forums (like chatwake has become for axis lol) but alot of you also know i was HUGE into axis and the a20. and actually had papers drawn and a 2011 ordered. but after seeing them side by side at the houston boat show decided to go with another moomba and canceled my axis. anyway got a chance to spend some time in a friends axis the other day. just thought i would share my thoughts.

Dislikes:
horizontal grab handle just inside the tower mount(did make a good arm rest though)
horisontal jail bars by cup holders
less peaky wake
gel coat color change lines were allitle jagged
seats didnt breath well, wasnt even that hot
open storage below the seats
small rear storage
snap in carpet/mat
added price
hard to turn in one direction
stiff rack bungees and sharp hook corners were deadly lol
skateboard grip tape
center windsheild mounted mirror
smaller interior space
center ailse cushion

Likes:
LOVE the open windsheild sides
firmer top of wake
ballast switches on dash
deeper battery comp. storage(front to back)
wedge, such a great idea
ease of plug and play system, and just the option itself
the seat on the transom, for lacing up
huge bow, my feet couldnt even reach the other side
rubber dipper rack forks
motor storage for handles
good pop/boot when hit with proper technique (i was riding injured)
hull smoothed out rollers when riding right on top of prop wash
tall rear seat
smooth throttle (partially due to the 12.5 prop)

Comments:
i was warned by chatwake that the wake would be wide so i added a mph to my riding speed to compensate. i think this was some of the added wake firmness, but i think the boat had a firmer wake too. i would like to ride again at full strength with the stock and PnP 100% full and wedge. ie the full package. we like to store our boards in the rear storage, and with the axis this just isnt possible. i mentioned price, from personal expereince and online prices the axis seem to run 8-10K more equally equipt. also a couple of my dislikes were double edges swords, for 1 the mirror, i cant stand a windsheild mounted mirror (i realize tower mount is available) but i did love its function, my tower mount i cant see anything past the driverside wake. the center windshild mount fixed that, great view. and second was the center isle cushion. i prefer a walk threw floor here, but LOVE the ease of adding more front ballast that it provides. also noticed a obvious wine. im assuming vdrive or tranny. but it sounded exactly like a roots blower so being the gearhead i am i actually liked it. obviously the axis has online cool factor, moomba doesnt have guys with full sleeves or jaopro doing promotional vids and have never been considered "cool". did i mention i LOVE the open side windsheild? ive actually been looking into ways to remove the side glass from my moomba lol. i also liked the boot i could feel from the wake. i like to actually feel it. a little more size would be nice though. but i was riding fully loaded.

well thats all i can really think of. had a good time. this isnt meant to be a comparison of any kind, neither boat is better than the other, cause there is no perfect boat, ya just cant get everything. but any boat thats 'price point" and and keeps money out of the overpriced big 3s pockets is good in my book. again just my personal observations and opinions posted. all rights reserved, no purchase nessecary. flame suit on.

A very good evaluation Cory.It sounded fair to me.

Cory, nice post and observations. Cory rode in my boat and pretty much everything he mentioned we talked about. As for the wake, I only had the center full (bow sac empty), stock rear tanks full and maybe 250lbs in each PnP sac (I can add and extra 500lb more to each side). Next time we go out I'll load it up full, and throw in another 400lb sac in the bow. I'm sure you'll love that. Both Cory and his girlfriend did rave about the windshield and liked the solid ride the Axis has. We even discussed how the Moomba rattled (windshield), squeaked (tower), and slapped when going through rollers and chop. I will agree the vinyl does not breathe as well especially the closed back drivers seat.

Cory, can you elaborate as to what you mean by "small interior space". Are you meaning internal storage space? I feel as if the cabin is almost as big as my previous 23' XLV. I think Axis gains cabin length but at the sacrifice of shortening the rear locker length which does not allow for boards to be stored in the rear lockers (I do miss this from my Moomba). I would love to see a 23' Axis with longer rear lockers.

just curious - why do you like to put your decks in the rear storage?

wow nearly 250 views just over lunch time!
aj yeah i knew you mentioned she wasnt loaded down so i wanted to be fair mentioning that.
i agree my 03 tower did shake in chop. but the larger tube, and redesigned tower '11 does not

when i said small interior space, i was refering to the floor area. if you run a tape measure on the floor, side to side, and front to back in the A22 its actually smaller than my '03 lsv (20'8") and the '11 too (21'-6") i measured all 3 personally. in fairness however does the A22 Feel smaller? absolutly not.

Miguel: its funny you mention that. we actually learned that from AJ (above and axis owner) when he had his XLV. now we can load the boat at the house, and when we get to the lake we dont have to unload the jeep transfering the boards to the boat. plus we never have to play walk the plank on the gunnel putting the boards in the rack after riding etc. it never fails a big roller comes when your trying to do that with wet feet lol.

oh - werd i got it.

word or weird?
could totally change the meaning of your response lol

I meant "word"

I got a chance to ride in an A22 this last week as well and i've got an 05 mobiusLSV. Wakeboard wake... Axis wins not even close. I to didn't care for the open storage under the seats. Loved the axis all around and i'm more of a function over bling kinda guy... i liked the more utilitarian feel of the Axis. I love my LSV but i'd take an Axis in a heart beat!! i'd also take a new tige, centurion, mastercraft, supra, epic, Mb..... you get the idea

I too am a moomba owner (08 LSV) and rode in an axis A20 this last weekend.

Dislikes;
Short rear locker storage
Front cup holders won't fit a beer in a coozie (major fail)
Look of the pickle fork
Speaker lay out
Lack of analog gauges on dash
Rear storage / engine compartment has only two doors (this is probably nice to change an impeller put on the water functionality sucks)
Driver seat is straight up ugly
Tow point on rear is very squared off and looks as if it could cut a rope overtime

Likes
Size the pickle fork allows
Hard tanks that you can fill and still use rear lockers without pnp
ballast switches on dash
Speed control is speed based and easy to use
ski pylon is short and out of the way
Giant glove box
Tower is prewired for speakers
Amp rack is already installed for upgrading to more or bigger amplifiers
Seat on the transom for putting on boards
The swim platform feels very solid

I have to agree with Cory on the mirror and open storage under the seat does not bother me since it is not really that open.

The wake was very nice and did not seem to wash very easily at all. Running no ballast with the wedge down the bow rises and falls and is very annoying. Even the surf wake seemed decent with stock ballast and 4 people in the boat. Looking forward to riding behind it with the pnp installed

omg you just reminded me, that was one thing i could not believe! NO trim plate. i was blown away by that. i think my jaw sank to the floor when he told me that.
i could not imagine not being able change the wake shape, and trim rise for varying speeds and f/r balance. i assumed this was a standard feature for any half modern ski/wake boat. lol my '82 didnt have one....

You're going to have bow rise when you run the wedge and no over ballast. I'm sure any moomba would have bow rise if you put 1-1.5k in the rear, and nothing else in the boat, even with the wake plate.

It wasn't just bow rise. The bow would rise then fall then rise then fall and continued to do this like a roller coaster until we stopped and put the wedge up. Very annoying especially since you have to move the wedge manually

David, the wedge is free floating. . . meaning once it goes down it finds its optimum (sp) point, but also has the ability to move if it were to hit something. As for bow ride there had to have been way too much weight in the back of the boat to have it porpoise like that, if they let weight out the rear it wouldn't ride like a so called "roller coaster." I'm surprised you guys don't like the storage under the seats . . . I personally think it's a great idea because things can actually breath and dry out unlike when it's in an inclosed area. Plus it doesn't have the carpet so you don't have to worry about that getting all nasty like you would with carpet. Just easier to maintain. As to the grip tape I think that's another great feature, no more slipping on regular gel coat like you would in any other boat . . . I know it's saved me a few times putting boards up and stepping on and off the boat. Sorry if it sounds like i'm trying to be mean, I think moomba is a great boat as well, but I switched from skiers choice (Supra) to axis because in my opinion I think overall for me it's exactly what I need.

I was forum surfing yesterday as the Supra forum was still down [Its up now]. I went to the Axis forum to see what the owners are saying about the boat. There are some interesting posts there.

Again, any boat that's overweighted in the rear is going to porpoise. All a trim tab does is slightly offset some rear weight, which is no different that putting some weight in the front of a boat. This is elementary.

Cory, for someone who spent time looking at an A20 at the boatshow with Matt, asked the dealer and people on line tons of questions, saw tons of photos, and supposedly placed an order for a boat and then backed out, how did you not know that the A20 and A22 do not have a trim tab or wake plate? This would be like me saying, I almost boat a moomba, thought really really hard about it, looked at one at the boatshow, and then when I went out on one later, I was absolutely shocked to discover that the moomba boat didn't come with a touch screen display. C'mon man.

definatly chatwake any rear heavy boat will porpuse. but i like to be able to change the wake instantly in 1 second without leaving the drivers seat. ie me and audrey ride the same ballast: full front, 80% rears. but she likes a lower longer round top wake, i like a shorter vertical lippy wake. before riding i just tap the plate up for me and down for her. two totally different wakes instantly. plus when crossing the lake i can instantly adjust the bow additude for a perfect smooth ride without porposing. i dont have to stop and ask people to move to the bow. and then stop again when its better but not gone cause you moved to many or not enough the first time.

your probly the most knowledgeable chatwake, i know Tige has a plate(TAPS). does MC and nautique have trim tabs of some kind? i tried looking on nautique site last night but couldnt find much info other than specs.

there are a ton of things i like about the A22(20) but i have to say the lack of trim plate was a huge missed step IMO especially since it costs more.

Different strokes for different folks. I specifically didn't buy a moomba/supra or Bu because they didn't have snap-out carpet (few years ago). Wakeplate knocks down spray for surfing even if you don't use it so it's a Must on any boat I'd buy. I'm sure it can be added for a few hund. Both boats are good buys IMO. Good honest personal reviews.

Cory was it you who posted a few weeks (or months?) ago how you sold your XLV and were going with Axis because of wake issues on the XLV? Are you going with another XLV or the LSV instead?

no that was AJ, the person who gave me the ride on the A22 (and former XLV owner)
and yes the XLV has a horrible un-useable wake. i was so happy for AJ when he traded! and i know he is too!

id like to clearify my origonal post as this thread is starting to turn. if you re read my origonal post you can really see the tone and light heartedness i wrote it with.
this is not a comparison thread. this is not a bash thread. youll notice i liked as much as i disliked. you cant get everything in one boat. the same would go for a moomba if rode in by a axis guy. he would find its faults and its pluses. i would not get butt hurt lol. the thread was simply my personal observations. thats all.

and we have to remember this is the internet, penis's, ego's, etc are all larger on here lol. and we're all proud of our brands. thats a good thing. it would be easy to step on toes.

the best advice ive ever seen when talking about buying a boat, comparing a brands, etc was this. "go out and get in each boat, feel its materials, analysis its layout, review its features, consider its price, ride behind them, drive them. etc. THEN decide whats best for YOU. and you will always be happy."

Cory

I really liked the grip tape options as well. I wish moomba would have something similar, either grip tape or sea deck that is custom cut for around the bow light and on the gunnels

Originally Posted by mhunter

I was forum surfing yesterday as the Supra forum was still down [Its up now]. I went to the Axis forum to see what the owners are saying about the boat. There are some interesting posts there.

Where is the Axis forum? I'd like to check it out.

Originally Posted by rdlangston13

I really liked the grip tape options as well. I wish moomba would have something similar, either grip tape or sea deck that is custom cut for around the bow light and on the gunnels

This should be an easy mod...but, yeah I can see how that would be a good option to have. I'd be up for the SeaDek more than the cheapy looking grip tape. That stuff can look pretty bad over time.

Originally Posted by misfits1981

Where is the Axis forum? I'd like to check it out.

Just Google Axis Forum.

Quote "and yes the XLV has a horrible un-useable wake. i was so happy for AJ when he traded! and i know he is too!"

To me this is just NOT true. We have put 350 hours behind my 2008 XLV and have never had a SINGLE complaint on the wake. Its a little bit sensitive to side to side weight but lots of 23 foot boats are, but to call it Horrible is just not true. I have tons of videos online of the wake on my boat and it is anything but "unuseable". I know many times Aj complained of it washing over at low speeds but I always said "why do you need 2600lbs of ballast to ride at 18 and do HS straight airs?"

watch this video of us riding at 22mph and tell me its horrible/un-useable:

wake looks legit big right there to me

If u think all wake boats come with trim tabs, I'm not sure you are a qualified boat reviewer. Just my 2 cents.

Word.

i am definatly not a qualified boat reviewer. as stated in the first post and several others after, just my opinions and observations. simple as that.
not a review, comparison, or bash. just a post of thoughts. no harm or seriousness meant.

i have been trying to educate myself though.
heres what ive found:

Tige has Taps
Moomba/supra has wake plate
MasterCraft has attitude adjustment plate (and surf tabs)
Nautique has hydrogate
Axis/malibu has nothing.

but maybe i missed something Tommy.

Originally Posted by 501s

Quote "and yes the XLV has a horrible un-useable wake. i was so happy for AJ when he traded! and i know he is too!"

To me this is just NOT true. We have put 350 hours behind my 2008 XLV and have never had a SINGLE complaint on the wake. Its a little bit sensitive to side to side weight but lots of 23 foot boats are, but to call it Horrible is just not true. I have tons of videos online of the wake on my boat and it is anything but "unuseable". I know many times Aj complained of it washing over at low speeds but I always said "why do you need 2600lbs of ballast to ride at 18 and do HS straight airs?"

watch this video of us riding at 22mph and tell me its horrible/un-useable:

Levi, I only used my ballast to surf. I'm not at the level of needing ballast but I don't ride at 18mph. My lady friend likes to ride at 20-20.5mph and if I'm going to try a new jump I like to slow it down too. In my experiece, at or below 22mph the XLV has wash on the lip of both wakes. I've tried every combination of no ballast and just trimming with the plate to adding a little ballast (front or rear and a little both) with the plate and no success. Even though I do not have the XLV anymore I would gladly drive a reasonable distance to ride in an XLV and have someone prove to me you can have a clean, washfree wake at or below 22mph in that boat. Cory's and his girlfriend rode behind my previous XLV several times and recently his girlfriend rode behind another XLV in Austin , TX for a day and she also said the same with the wake. I have no doubt the XLV wake is big and clean at above 24mph (I've seen the wake on my previous XLV at that speed with and without ballast) but I'm not at that level of riding or even know if I'll even be to need that speed. I would have never thought the XLV would not be capable of producing a clean and consistant wake in the 21-22mph range even without ballast...had I known that I would not have bought one. If you're happy with your XLV thats all that matters in the end. I'm happy and got rid of mine.

wish i could have stayed to ride your axis again yesterday! we had to rush home to meet the cable guy at 4
i would have loved to ride that thing fully loaded. especially with all those people too. would have been a BEAST!
but i has already finished my 4th set so it would have probly been pretty ugly on my part lol.

The Axis boats do not have "nothing" has Cory suggests. The A22 and A20 have an optional wedge, just like the malibu wakeboats, which, arguably, is the same thing as a wake plate, only bigger. No, you can't adjust the wedge by hand while pulling a rider on the Axis boats (like you can with the power wedge option for the malibu boats); however, when deployed, the wedge does much more than a wake plate does in terms of altering the wake.

My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that a wake plate creates slight additional downward force on the rear of the boat in order to offset the amount of hook that many wakeboat hulls have built into them to assist the boat with getting on plane (and to make those boats somewhat skiable). In other words, having the wakeplate in the closed position does not help a boat get on plane, because the hull itself is designed to do that. Trim taps may be different. I've never dealt with those. All the wake plate does is allow you to create a small amount of additional pressure on the rear transom area of the hull. At least this was my experience with my 230's.

For the record, I don't think the 205v hull was ever equipped with a wake plate, and I never thought that boat was lacking in performance or technology because it didn't have one. I don't think there is anything wrong with wake plates, tabs, the wedge, switchblade, etc. Other than maybe trim tabs, just adding weight in the right places would achieve the same result that these mechanisms do.

Originally Posted by stang_killa_ss

wish i could have stayed to ride your axis again yesterday! we had to rush home to meet the cable guy at 4
i would have loved to ride that thing fully loaded. especially with all those people too. would have been a BEAST!
but i has already finished my 4th set so it would have probly been pretty ugly on my part lol.

With 6 in the boat and just the hard tanks the wake was huge (to me ). My first hit I let go in mid-air because the wake was so firm I got booted straight up. I think you would have liked it. It definately had a lot more pop and firmness with the extra bodies in the boat. We'll see about Sunday morning and getting you a set with the boat loaded.

my thoughts per paragraph

agreed. nothing was a strong term it doesnt seem like a wedge should be used to trim a boat while booking across the lake. wikipedia says the wedge was designed to pull the rear of the boat down. this would be added drag and wake. and i dont know, can it be depoyed far enough forward to actually raise the rear of the boat? ie the angle of the wedge is positive degree relitive to the bottom of the hull. ie front of wedge higher than rear of wedge.

that sounds right. i know haveing the plate at neutral vs all the way up doesn make a pretty decent difference on lenghth of bow rise on hole shot.

i dont know either. so what happens when your heading across the lake, and 3 girls in the bow decide to move back to the rear bench cause its too windy up there? you would have to start filling front ballast and wait while your ride out the porpuse. with tabs you just tap the lever and bam its fixed in less than a second.

Cory, I agree that taps/trim tabs act differently than a wake plate - see my post above.

i bet that was awesome AJ! wish i could have got to watch ya get booted more. what i saw looked good. i was yelling and thumbs up'n ya several times

lol chat that was a response to your post above.

heres my opinion
the adj trim plates, wake plates, gates, are trim adjusters, ie the additude of the boat.
wedges and switchblades are wake enhancing devices.

however the trim plates, wakeplates, hydrogates, etc can also change the shape of the wake, ie like me and audreys senario. same ballast setup, different trim plate locations, two totally different wakes.

IMO
trim plates = additude adjustment & wake shape(side effect)
wedge= wake enhancement & wake shape(side effect)

If you watch the video I posted the wake was clean and not rolling over and that was fully weighted at 22mph. Perhaps there was something wrong with AJ's boat, speedo or even the wake plate (i read about an Epic owner who had this trouble)? I have never rode at 24 nor would I, it seems a bit fast for me, but we routinely ride between 21 and 22.5. AJ and Cory, when you rode the XLV did your wake look like mine did in that video?

I guess you guys didn't check out the video. Oh well.

All I'm gonna say is if I need some to depend on some gimmicky tab hanging of the back of my 50,000-100,000 dollar wake hull, someone at that boat company didn't do their homework. It's like a bandaid in my opinion.

^^^^^
What do you mean... not sure what you were trying to say here

lol tommy what about the 6 figure offshore race boats that have "gimmicky tabs" hanging off the back? are you saying they also didnt do there R&D on the ultimate performance hulls?

I thought we were talking about wakeboarding not offshore racing where the object is completely opposite as far as hull design. All I'm saying is correct craft and mastercraft were able to create a few of the best wakes this sport has ever seen without the use of the "enhancers". That's why you still see 95 supersports, the original 210 hull, and original stars/x1's selling in the $20-30,000 range. And up until 2010 "SURF tabs" were not available on the current xstar. Just seems like they have to throw on something new to try and get someone to sell their old boat and buy a new one. I mean absolutely no offense to anyone on here, just expressing my opinion on the matter. Gonna go take a set, hope u all do too!

Why is everyone hating on tabs? You guys are redic. My parents ssv supra had them and would plane no matter how much weight we threw in it. When u are up pull it out of the way, that simple. If we tried to plane with all that weight and the tab up it would never happen. I think we were only running the 16 pitch prop and we got up fine with 3000 lbs and 12 people. Thus allowing us to save one gas. Tab Down is effectively a lower gear.

Btw I have a 210 like Tommy was Talking about and I still think they are pretty cool lol

I've been in a friends san 210 and another friends x15 quite a bit and both cant go barely over 30 without the boat porposing bad. If they had a trim tab all they would have to do is tap it down a bit and they could go as the boat could go with no problem. It's not about hull design it's just a convenience item and has so many uses. I use no plate when wakeboarding with my moomba but if weighted heavy I can use it to plane out quicker and then put it up when I get on plane. Every wakeboard boat manufacturer except axis and malibu has some sort of trim tab because it's just that useful of a feature.

Originally Posted by readyaimfire

All I'm gonna say is if I need some to depend on some gimmicky tab hanging of the back of my 50,000-100,000 dollar wake hull, someone at that boat company didn't do their homework. It's like a bandaid in my opinion.

Do you realize how rediculous that statement is? A trim tab is simply a tool that allows the driver to control the pitch of the boat. I don't understand why you wouldn't want to have control over one more variable of the boat.

On an airplane it's called an elevator... the hinged flaps on the tail. They give the pilot control over the up/down movement of the nose. Next time you are boarding a plane, you should ask the pilot to make the flight without his elevator. LOL.

wrong again tommy, trim plates are not wake enhancers.
they control pitch of the boat at speed. and as stated above, the other manufactures except malibu/axis use them.
as a side effect they can also be used to plane quicker and change wake shape. but not there primary purpose.

dbc great post, being a pilot sometimes i assume everyone is familiar with this.

Why is everyone assuming I'm saying they don't work. I never said they don't work. I'm saying they are not necessary on a properly designed/ weighted boat. Just my opinion. Why are airplanes and offshore boats ending up in here? I think we r just spinning our wheels at this point. Agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by readyaimfire

All I'm gonna say is if I need some to depend on some gimmicky tab hanging of the back of my 50,000-100,000 dollar wake hull, someone at that boat company didn't do their homework. It's like a bandaid in my opinion.

Not gimicky at all. And not a band-aid when used right.

If we're out riding in not so great conditons, then the boat can (and does) porpoise as it's going over other boat wakes..... which leads to line tension problems for the rider.
A "properly weighted boat" (whatever that is) can still have the problem. You can add more weight to the bow to help solve it. But at some point your bow is gonna be chili-dipping into the waves.
So having a trim tab is nice because the adjustment is at the driver's fingertips & will help the driver give the rider a steady pull.

If you only ride in perfectly glassy conditions, then I agree with you. But any any windy or wavy conditions their for keeping the handle steady.

Originally Posted by readyaimfire

Why is everyone assuming I'm saying they don't work. I never said they don't work. I'm saying they are not necessary on a properly designed/ weighted boat. Just my opinion. Why are airplanes and offshore boats ending up in here? I think we r just spinning our wheels at this point. Agree to disagree.

watersport boats, in general, tend to have a less deadrise at the transom than a deep v boat. this keeps the boat from listing while underway, creating a uniform wake on both sides. the inherent problem with this design is that it creates a rough ride in choppy water or when crossing rollers thrown by other boats. a trim tab, wake plate, or whatever you want to call it can and will force the bow down, allowing the keel to slice through rougher water. when you do that, however, you have increased the wetted surface of the hull, effective pushing the hull out of the water.

so whats my point? a properly designed towboat is going to ride rougher than its runabout counterparts. can adding a wakeplate or the like help mediate the issue and optimize performance? i would argue yes.

also, by your argument of a properly weighted boat... with every ounce of fuel burned, every man soda consumed and released back in to the lake, and every inch moved by passengers on board, the weighting of the boat changes...are you constantly dropping ounces of ballast here and there to maintain your optimal weighting? unlikely.

Sorry to divert the thread but on the trim tab issue: My Sanger V210 was never supplied with a trim plate and they are not an option from the factory. After owning the boat for 5-6 years of supreme wake and boat performance I added one because I like tinkering and had an idea about creating an automatic control which puts the plate down when you stop then pulls it up once you are on plane. The result: 20% saving in running cost, zero bow rise on start up and a much longer surf pocket. There are very few boats which wouldn't benefit from a trim plate even if they don't "need" one, thinking they are a band-aid is not my experience at all.

Nice Darren. Guess we need another thread to hear how you automated the plate going up & down.

Here: http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/m...tml?1257232316