Biden for Prez

Originally Posted by shawndoggy

Still way easier to control emissions from one big smokestack than millions of tiny exhaust pipes.

You will have to come up with way more fuel burning plants. From what I understand from ground to energy production gas is still overall more efficient than electric. You are really gaining nothing unless you are committing to nuclear. While solar panels are great, they are not for every part of the world and are going to be a horrible environmental issue in 20 to 30 years when they no longer work. Going to be huge costs and run down houses because the home owners are not going to be able to afford to replace and dispose of the panels. They are made with very nasty chemicals.

Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier

From what I understand from ground to energy production gas is still overall more efficient than electric.

Only if you read studies from the oil industry.

Originally Posted by ralph

Only if you read studies from the oil industry.

you haven't seen the pics of the gas powered truck towing a diesel generator offering mobile charging to Tesla drivers?

Originally Posted by denverd1

you haven't seen the pics of the gas powered truck towing a diesel generator offering mobile charging to Tesla drivers?

OMG its so funny, and retarted at the same time. It will require a nuclear power plant ever 5 miles to go completely electric, never fly over an ocean again. Just like the old days, get on the Titanic and take a trip.

But dont worry, Joe fixed the boys vs girls. so now any teenager can change cloths, get naked, etc in your daughters locker room. Maybe a grown man, can walk into the dressing room your wife is in and try on women underwear together.

ITs out of control. Hope you dont have a daughter athlete with hopes of a scholarship, those days are over when any boy can become a women overnight. Cant wait to see our oylimpics. Will other countries put up with this insanity?

Originally Posted by dougr

OMG its so funny, and retarted at the same time. It will require a nuclear power plant ever 5 miles to go completely electric, never fly over an ocean again. Just like the old days, get on the Titanic and take a trip.

What's funny is you clueless luddites who have no vision.

Pop quiz, what's easier to green up, 10 million tail pipes or 1 power station?

How about incentivizing home owners to put PV on the roof so you move to a distributed power production model rather than centralized?

The future is electric, that's why Tesla is trading at 1600x P:E

Originally Posted by ralph

What's funny is you clueless luddites who have no vision.

Pop quiz, what's easier to green up, 10 million tail pipes or 1 power station?

How about incentivizing home owners to put PV on the roof so you move to a distributed power production model rather than centralized?

The future is electric, that's why Tesla is trading at 1600x P:E

I have nothing against electric, electric cars, boats, planes, etc. The tech is not there yet, so while we develop it, rebuild an infrastructure to manage it and handle it. Why would we destroy the systems that allow the development of electric tech to become so expensive it clobbers flexibility in all sectors that supply the electric energy future.

Everything has to move, by train, plane, truck etc. If you want to expand development, have more competing growth, and make electric work. its going to take a long time, and cost an insane amount of money to get there. Increasing costs around the system hurts growth. it really hurts expansion, and keeps companies from jumping into new tech.

Originally Posted by ralph

What's funny is you clueless luddites who have no vision.

Pop quiz, what's easier to green up, 10 million tail pipes or 1 power station?

How about incentivizing home owners to put PV on the roof so you move to a distributed power production model rather than centralized?

The future is electric, that's why Tesla is trading at 1600x P:E

What’s idiotic is that the view from your small insignificant area have no real concept of the cost to even consider making this move. The amount of electricity needed to be generated and the amount of energy that it would need to even begin to implement this would be astronomical and impossible. Do you know how much it costs right now to outfit a house with solar panels ? Do you know how long you actually have to keep an electrical vehicle in service to offset the initial cost difference to a compatible gas car ? Do you know how long the average commute is for a single individual in a major city to work? It would be physically impossible to move towards this. That’s why nobody takes anyone spewing this garbage out of their mouth seriously . It’s a pipe dream for those not familiar with reality.

Originally Posted by xstarrider

Do you know how much it costs right now to outfit a house with solar panels ?

A 3kW System is about 6k without subsidies

Originally Posted by xstarrider

Do you know how long you actually have to keep an electrical vehicle in service to offset the initial cost difference to a compatible gas car ?

My Tesla was cheaper than the equivalent Audi, BMW or Merc and is pretty much service free. My Audi S4 cost 2k a year just in servicing to keep it on the road and the difference in "fuel cost" is about 90% less here but our gas is more expensive than yours, your saving is about 50% if you are paying $2 a gallon.

Originally Posted by xstarrider

Do you know how long the average commute is for a single individual in a major city to work?

16 miles each way or 32miles return

Originally Posted by xstarrider

It would be physically impossible to move towards this. That’s why nobody takes anyone spewing this garbage out of their mouth seriously . It’s a pipe dream for those not familiar with reality.

A 3kW solar system generates about 12kW per day, to drive an EV 32 miles per day uses around 10kW. So if you want you can 100% offset your commute with a house based system. 3kW is pretty entry level most systems are 5kW.

So yeah, the numbers aren't ridiculous, they actually stack up pretty well and that is without incentives.

Originally Posted by ralph

What's funny is you clueless luddites who have no vision.

Pop quiz, what's easier to green up, 10 million tail pipes or 1 power station?

How about incentivizing home owners to put PV on the roof so you move to a distributed power production model rather than centralized?

The future is electric, that's why Tesla is trading at 1600x P:E

Yeah, PV roof panels... Speaking of vision, so fugly, so expensive and nowhere to put them in 20 years. Like all dem plans, critical thinking goes out the window. The only important part is making sure everyone knows “you care” about Mother Earth. Solar roof panels are like slapping some spoked hub caps on a brand new Porsche.

The future is NOT electric. No one has the raw materials to even support it. Just ask your wicked stepmother, the UK. You know, the guys who gave you the great teeth.

Originally Posted by ralph

What's funny is you clueless luddites who have no vision.

Pop quiz, what's easier to green up, 10 million tail pipes or 1 power station?

How about incentivizing home owners to put PV on the roof so you move to a distributed power production model rather than centralized?

The future is electric, that's why Tesla is trading at 1600x P:E

both. BTU and fuel used it BTU and fuel used. If you are claiming that American tail pipes with all the emission components are still poluting then so is the smoke stack from the power station. Only the power station has to transmit the energy. Looks like 65% loss.

http://insideenergy.org/2015/11/06/l...and-your-plug/

Ok. So you have solar panels. Now what. Most of the US does not have 265 days of sun like California. Also you don't have sun at night. We only have 6 months of more day than night . During the winter in the US the average is maybe little over 20 clear days over the 3 months. What happens when the panels no longer put out after 20 to 30 years. They will just be an expensive eye sore with residents unable to afford to take them down and they will be right back on the grid.

Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier

both. BTU and fuel used it BTU and fuel used. If you are claiming that American tail pipes with all the emission components are still poluting then so is the smoke stack from the power station. Only the power station has to transmit the energy. Looks like 65% loss

This is an interesting analysis about transitioning the vehicle fleet from Oil to EV, a few things in it I hadn't considered before.
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2...iHMRyLSAI78F9E

Originally Posted by ralph

What's funny is you clueless luddites who have no vision.

Pop quiz, what's easier to green up, 10 million tail pipes or 1 power station?

How about incentivizing home owners to put PV on the roof so you move to a distributed power production model rather than centralized?

The future is electric, that's why Tesla is trading at 1600x P:E

Also if future is electric then why are you interested in artificially gutting the other industries to make it possible? If it was, it will do it naturally.

Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier

Also if future is electric then why are you interested in artificially gutting the other industries to make it possible? If it was, it will do it naturally.

Two points:
The US government subsidizes the oil industry to the tune of $20b per year. Why? That should be stopped immediately.

Electric vehicles will continue to tumble in prices as the volume increases, it makes sense to give it a helping hand to accelerate the tipping point where electric is both cheaper and greener.

Originally Posted by dougr

OMG its so funny, and retarted at the same time. It will require a nuclear power plant ever 5 miles to go completely electric, never fly over an ocean again. Just like the old days, get on the Titanic and take a trip.

But dont worry, Joe fixed the boys vs girls. so now any teenager can change cloths, get naked, etc in your daughters locker room. Maybe a grown man, can walk into the dressing room your wife is in and try on women underwear together.

ITs out of control. Hope you dont have a daughter athlete with hopes of a scholarship, those days are over when any boy can become a women overnight. Cant wait to see our oylimpics. Will other countries put up with this insanity?

Do they mean to tell us the old East German track athletes that looked like dudes back in the 70's and 80's were just ahead of the curve? Who knew right. It is just so disgusting and evil, I don't even know what to think about it all anymore. People are blinded.

Originally Posted by denverd1

you haven't seen the pics of the gas powered truck towing a diesel generator offering mobile charging to Tesla drivers?

Yes I've see it, do you think that's how most EV owners charge their cars?

Originally Posted by ralph

Only if you read studies from the oil industry.

Then show us one that tells a different story. BTU is BTU is it not? How much is lost on the grid. How much does it cost to make batteries to make up for the vast amount of energy consumed? Lay it out there for us to digest.

Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier

Then show us one that tells a different story. BTU is BTU is it not? How much is lost on the grid. How much does it cost to make batteries to make up for the vast amount of energy consumed? Lay it out there for us to digest.

This analysis calculates a model 3's cost over ownership is lower than a Honda accord over 5 years.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cleante...st-to-own/amp/

Originally Posted by ralph

This analysis calculates a model 3's cost over ownership is lower than a Honda accord over 5 years.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cleante...st-to-own/amp/

I need to see more of his stats.

new model 3 START at $38,000 base. Honda Accord LX with a 4 cyclinder and loaded otherwise is $24,000. I am sure that model 3 is over $40,000. That is almost BMW 3 series price.

Can that Tesla make a 20 hour drive in one day? How do they do in a national park with no charge stations? Or during the simply 10 hour drive on the freeway to just get across the state of Kansas?

Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier

I need to see more of his stats.

new model 3 START at $38,000 base. Honda Accord LX with a 4 cyclinder and loaded otherwise is $24,000. I am sure that model 3 is over $40,000. That is almost BMW 3 series price.

Just read the article, it's all there, he includes purchase price and resale value, running costs service costs insurance. Bumper to bumper costs.

Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier

Can that Tesla make a 20 hour drive in one day? How do they do in a national park with no charge stations? Or during the simply 10 hour drive on the freeway to just get across the state of Kansas?

Actually a lot better than you would expect before owning one, all of your day to day charging is done at home or work, all long distance is done at the super charger network. You need about 30mins charging per 4 hrs of driving give or take. So not as good as petrol but not terrible, it's a good idea to stretch the legs every 4 hrs anyway. And it's important to remember for a large proportion of normal use you don't need to stop at all to refuel, it's done while your sleeping. I don't miss going to the gas station, that's for sure.

Originally Posted by ralph

Just read the article, it's all there, he includes purchase price and resale value, running costs service costs insurance. Bumper to bumper costs.

Actually a lot better than you would expect before owning one, all of your day to day charging is done at home or work, all long distance is done at the super charger network. You need about 30mins charging per 4 hrs of driving give or take. So not as good as petrol but not terrible, it's a good idea to stretch the legs every 4 hrs anyway. And it's important to remember for a large proportion of normal use you don't need to stop at all to refuel, it's done while your sleeping. I don't miss going to the gas station, that's for sure.

I think it has a great niche in California and in places that have exactly what you say. Shorter trips and charge at night for commuting 20,000 miles a year. have to see how long those batteries last though. How many years can these things last with that many charge cycles. Not apposed to the idea but having a car that I have to manage is not in the cards for me right now. If it were not for the magnetic charger next to my bed, my phone may never get charged. Interesting for the big city types where they are stacked on each other in condos and such. Always jockeying for a charge spot.

I wonder if the 4 hours of driving is 4 hours of driving at 70 mph on the freeway. At this point I would not categorize the car as a good road trip car. you can not even make it to LA from here. Could not make it across Kansas without stopping for 1.5 hours. that is a ton of time to stop. vast majority of America does not have super charger stations. That requires a crap load of electrical grid on highways now. That is a whole new ball of wax especially trying to get right of way rights to run all that electrical. If you think it is going to be solar panel charging. No driving at night.

It has it's place but I don't want to have to manage my car. It is a tool. I get in and I go. I stop for fuel once a week if I am commuting and it takes 5 minutes max.

Originally Posted by ralph

Just read the article, it's all there, he includes purchase price and resale value, running costs service costs insurance. Bumper to bumper costs.

Actually a lot better than you would expect before owning one, all of your day to day charging is done at home or work, all long distance is done at the super charger network. You need about 30mins charging per 4 hrs of driving give or take. So not as good as petrol but not terrible, it's a good idea to stretch the legs every 4 hrs anyway. And it's important to remember for a large proportion of normal use you don't need to stop at all to refuel, it's done while your sleeping. I don't miss going to the gas station, that's for sure.

I don't buy his numbers. There is a built in $20k different in price right off the bat. Not making that up with short trip drives. Just like a diesel truck. Does not start paying off until you get read high mileage or you are towing a lot to make up for the MPG. The inherent cost of the equipment keeps it from being cost competitive for some time. We still have not seen what the end of life looks like for these. Pure toxic waste.

Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier

I need to see more of his stats.

new model 3 START at $38,000 base. Honda Accord LX with a 4 cyclinder and loaded otherwise is $24,000. I am sure that model 3 is over $40,000. That is almost BMW 3 series price.

Can that Tesla make a 20 hour drive in one day? How do they do in a national park with no charge stations? Or during the simply 10 hour drive on the freeway to just get across the state of Kansas?

You don’t need to see more stats. All you need to know ow is that article bases its ASSUMPTIONS on a small segment of society that fits the argument for their cause. Case in point they chose to focus on the stat of people who drive over 21k miles per year and then goes on further to include those that drive over 30k miles per year for their cost analysis . That’s a very small segment of society and precisely the segment electric cars are beneficial for. So it’s no surprise it’s actually beneficial there. However the rest of the overwhelming majority of Americans that drive the average of 13,500 miles per year would not benefit from it . No true cost analysis there for the average American driver( wonder why) , just a basis on the small fraction of drivers that actually would benefit From an EV option , which we all agree exists .