unimpressed, ideas?

This past weekend I spent the day on a friend's boat. He just upgraded his audio system from stock. While it is a night and day difference between what it was and is now, I was actually not impressed that much. This is an issue for me because I was thinking of using a couple of the same components when I build my system.

His system is:
Sony headunit
crappy sony speakers in the cabin
Wetsounds Pro-80X speakers
JL Audio 4340e (?) amp
Another unknown amp. I'm sure he didn't pay 150 for it.
Two Kicker 12" subs of unknown model mounted in a box under the passenger side dash and seat

I didn't expect much from the subs and amps because he tried to do it on a tight budget. But what surprised me was the Wetsounds speakers. I expected the Kicker subs to be loud but slow and not that tight and I was right.

The Pro-80X's were loud and could be heard behind the boat but I had two issues with them:

1. They sounded hollow. The highs seemed metallic like and the sound was overall just not natural.

2. I thought the HLCD speakers would not be as loud in the boat. I was underneath them and not behind them. I thought they are supposed to throw the sound out towards the rider. When they were turned up so that the rider could hear them clearly it was way too loud in the boat. Maybe this is only a problem on the Illusion tower?

Anyway, I'm trying to decide what I want to do for my boat. I've put two systems together at different price points:

System 1:
NVS Addiction tower speakers
Zapco Reference 750.2 - NVS amp (for tower)
Zapco Reference 1100.1 - NVS amp (for sub)
Zapco Reference 350.2 amp (for interior)
Focal 6.5" 165CA1 or 165K2P Co-axial speakers
Two JL Audio 10W7 or Focal 27KX subs (2)
battery isolater
deep cycle gel batteries (2)

Total cost of this system would be a little over $6K w/ installation

System 2:
Wetsounds Pro-80X's or NVS Addictions
JL Audio 10W7 sub or two 10W6 subs
Zapco 750.2 amp for tower speakers
JL Audio 500/1 subwoofer amp
JL Audio 300/4 amp
Polk Audio 6.5" Co-axial speakers
battery isolater
deep cycle gel battery

Total cost of this system would be around $4K w/ installation. Maybe closer to $5K if I went with the Addictions.

Now, I know this is a little different than what my buddy has. But what worries me is:
1. The hollow sound of the tower speakers won't change with better amplification.
2. The subs will still be slow and not keep up with the music.

I guess I have other questions too.
1. Anyone ever used mid-bass drivers to augment thier system?
2. What is the tightest, fastest, most musical sub?
3. Do the NVS Addictions have a more natural sound than the Wetsounds Pro-80X?

BTW, I have a 05' VLX and I have not considered the bigger tower speakers because I don't like the looks nor doI want to always be ducking under them. The Addictions and Pro-80s are somewhat out of the way.

I like 12's for rap only. I have 2-10's in my truck and 2-10's in my boat. They are able to keep up with the rock/alternative stuff I listen to. Also can hit hard enough when I throw in some rap.

I have had a JL, Rockford, Pioneer, and sony sub in my boat. The kenwoods I'm running right now have sounded the best.

(Message edited by ridn9high on August 28, 2006)

Chad,

All HLCD tower speakers I have heard sound loud in the boat too. The Addictions have a narrower dispersion pattern than the Pro 80's so they might not sound as loud in the boat. I saw this as a benefit of my coaxially loaded HLCD tower system, similar to the Addiction. My WetSounds Pro 485's produce a nice rich sound that sounds good in the boat and on the swim deck so I do not have the same issue, unfortunately you are not going to get a pair of 485's on an Illusion tower, you can do the Wetsounds threesome with one 485 and two pro 80's but this is still going to sound loud in the boat, you will be ducking. You can a 485 up top but that's just ugly. I found it helpful to run very bright boat speakers to match the tower speakers so you can turn down the highs and bring up the mid-bass to help things sound more full. You can also add an EQ dedicated to the tower.

I wanted to try something different with subs so I put 4 of these 6.5" long throw subs in a ported 1.3 cu. ft. box: http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/264-832.pdf It sounds way better and louder than the Alpine Type R 12 that it replaced. I run it along with a 12 at my feet, sometimes I have to double check to see if the 12 is still working since the little quad box works so well. The four 6.5's have about 1.2X the surface area of a 12, yet they are faster and lighter too. You will need to paint the paper cones and mount in them in a location to avoid water. On the plus side they don't cost that much so a full replacement is not so bad.

Intersting concept of buying bright cabin speakers and adjusting the highs.

The more I think about it the more I am leaning towards smaller subs. I like powerfull bass just like anyone else but slow, boomy bass will annoy the hell out of me, and after spend a lot of money I know I will be listening for it until I am convinced I'm satisfied with it.

Very interesting post. Im glad to see your very concerned about your stereo and how it sounds, most people are not

Your bring up some good arguments.

The first thing I should mention though is how was it all installed. Remember a good setup is not just good components, but install is key as well. 70% install and 30% equiptment, or something around that ballpark.

You get what I mean though.

I woulnd't focus too much on buying high end compoents, but rather spend a little less and install it properly, get a good EQ/crossover and tune it well, it can make a night and day difference.

Plus all that pricey stuff in a boat enviroment that is very open, is kind of a waste IMO. You are limited in ways.

As for the sub debate, it can go on and on and on. People used to say 15" were sloppy and 10" were tight. Well it has more to do with the mechanical design of the sub and the type of enclosure its in than the actual size itself. I have heard some pretty weak 10" subs that sounded like crap and could not properly control the cone movement, and I have heard some very beefy 15" subs that could reproduce a bass transient with ease and make it sound inceredible.

How were your friends subs installed? Were they in the right size enclosure? what type of enclosure was it? How were the subs positioned? How much power was being fed to them. These are some factors that will greatly affect the overall sound.

Larger subs also have the ability to move more air which also helps in reproducing those low notes. Small subs have their strenghts, (I also run 8" in my car) but sometimes there physical markup hinder their performance in some areas.

Midbass drivers can really evenout a system. Sometimes midbass is really lacking and its annoying on your ears if you dont have decent mid bass. A good 3 way component setup with tweeter, 4" mid or 6.5" mid and 8" midbass can really mellow things out. There is always a gap between the sub crossover and the mids that can't always be reproduced by a small speaker like a 6.5" mid, so you have a gap that is apparent that the sub cannot accurately fill and neither can the 6.5", thats where a midbass can come in handy. You can try and play around with correct tuning to make the sub and mid overlap a bit but sometimes it just doesn't sound right.


Question 2: See above mentioned. There isn't just 1.

What is your optimal goal? Accurate reproduction of the music, or just an overall loudness in the boat with good overall sound (more feasable).

If you want to go with A, youd want to make up some kick pods/panels and properly aim your speakers for proper channel seperation and for soundstage, but in a boat its really tough and kind of stupid because your never in the same position with multiple positions to sit in.

I know I won't get a good soundstage or imaging in a boat. I guess what I'm looking for is natural sounding, clear, music that can be heard loud and clear in the boat, and while swimming outside of the boat, but also would like the rider to hear it loud and clear. I would be ok if passengers in the boat didn't really hear it at all while someone is wakeboarding due to all the noise from the wind and engine.

But when we're hanging out I would like natural, clear sound.

As far as ny buddies install. The wiring looks first class and I know the shop that did it and it't most respected shop in the area for install work. I don't like the sub install. They built a box but I have no idea if it's the right size. The subs are downfiring. I would prefer a sub in the driver's footwell.

Chad,

You need to understand that you are trying to satisfy two different environments, inside the boat, and behind the boat. I feel that my tower is really just for the rider and blasting tunes when that is appropriate. If we are cruising around I often turn the tower off and let the interior speakers running in stereo handle the duties. I find 6 full range speakers adequate to fill the interior of my V-drive boat. A direct drive is a little tougher since you have more engine noise to overcome so you may choose to use the tower speakers to help drown out the motor at speed.

Here are some pictures of my stuff.

EQ



Custom dash panel with dedicated stereo master switch and digital voltmeter for stereo batteries

your right about the two environments. The local audio shop I talked about said they would install a gain knob to turn the tower up or down. How would you rig it so that only the tower is playing? I would want this when someone is riding but everyone else doesn't want to be blasted.

Nice looking sub box, I didn't even know somone made 6.5" subs. Who makes them?

Mikeski: very nice man...very custom looking, doesn't stand out like a sore thumb...me likes.

Chad:

you can use a volume control l-pad or simply use a Double pole double throw switch to turn the speakers off on the tower, or if your running the towers off a dedicated amp, just put an inline switch on the remote wire to shut the amp off.

Those subs are Tangband.

Not many car audio manufacturers make 6.5" subs, you have to look into the home audio department.

Partsexpress and a few other online retailers have good prices on the raw drivers.

Remember most home subs tend to have a lower FS as well which allows them to hit lower naturally, so you will have some nice low end depending on the box and power sent to them.

I've got a REL and a Soliloquy sub in my home, I would love to have that perfomance in my boat.

Chad,

I don't worry too much about sound quality in the boat, the environment is completely different from the home different variables.

You won't need to worry about turning the boat down with the tower up, any decent tower speakers will drown out the boat anyway. You might want to consider a volume control for the bow, maybe a gain control for the subs too. You can see my bow gain control at the very far right in the picture above of my alpine type R sub. This allows for me to turn the bow speakers off allowing a little stereo free zone for people to go chat, it's used quite often.

Matt, thanks for the props. my goal was to make things look as if they were done by the manufacturer (or better).

chad,

i know where you are coming from... it is really hard to make a boat listenable when you are used to high end home gear (home system - classe cam 350's monos, arc ls-25 mk2, audio aero prima dac ii, cec tl2 transport, audio physics libra's and a whole mess of expensive cables..)...

if i can make the following suggestions for system 2 that will offer musicality, speed, and clarity the is very, very good in a boat systems... also you will need 2x the power than a car due to the open accoustic nature of the car..

speakers - image dynamics chamelons (these are great speakers and replaced my dynaudio gt240 in my car)...nice midbass speakers and reasonably priced... they are in my boat too... only drawback is deep magnent...

subs- if sound quality then image dynamics idq series.they are very musical, does well in small boxes and little power.. they are the defacto standard for sq in the mobile setting

tower speakers - discontinued skylon deafcon iv or v's with image dynamic drivers... will have to buy use and modify them, but they have the best designed horn of any tower speaker hands down (btw, eric at image dynamics pioneered horns in a moblile setting with the help of elgar).. the prosounds are loud but still need some work to reduce the brightness and revised horn for correct dispersion..

batteries - 2 optima gels should do

amps - jl slash & zapco reference are great.. however i would go zapco with symbilink if you want total control with seperate volume knobs..the jl 500/1 has a remote volume.

(Message edited by clubmyke on August 30, 2006)