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Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       01-13-2016, 9:51 AM Reply   
We hear so much talk these days about the quality and fit and finish of these new boats. We also all like to follow up with a story that justifies our perceived views of what boat is better built than another.... Problem is, a statement like "Well, my neighbor had a Malibu and it was junk compared to my supra...." is not really easy to verify, and here on WW, is more often BS, than not.

What I was thinking, was that it would be good to have a thread with factual differences in the building processes of the boats, and factual evidence, or personal experience to back it up. The only thing I would say about "personal experiences" would be to stick to things that are verifiable, and backed by actual facts.

I know this will run off from the main objective. This is WW...... But I would like to try to keep it simple and to the point. We all know that all of these boats are mostly equal on overall quality.

Now, some of you may know that I have owned Bu's, many MC's, and currently on my second G. I have crawled around, through, and under, every one of them. I have also done major modifications to them all, and have had the interiors completely gutted out of every one, and spent many hours doing handstands in the compartments of them. I have also done the same in a couple friends SC products, but I won't get into those too much.

These are my observations and ratings for the brands I have dealt with.

Base Electrical-
1- MC by a land slide. (Limited to experience with 2011+ X25, XStar, X30, X23)
Not only do they start with every single foot of wire being marine grade tinned wire, they also enclose 99% of all wiring in neat and clean wire loom. On top of that, all connections in the boat use sealed connectors except the connectors that are in the upper portion of the tower, and the cabin courtesy lights. MC also incorporates glassed-in chaseways, which keep the wire in place for the life of the boat. Also, the helm wiring is a lot cleaner because of the harness designs and use of wire loom. MC also seems to always use bussing connectors to split up a common circuit, rather than butt splices and a heat shrink tube.

2-CC (limited to my experience with G Boats)
Tinned wiring, more sealed connections than typical, but only the engine compartment wiring is in wire loom. The rest is unjacketed and simply zip tied to those little glue-in zip tie tabs. Helm wiring in both my G21, and G23 was a rats nest because of individual wires going in a million directions. Overall, the system is well done for longevity, as the important circuits have sealed connectors, the engine bay wiring is protected, and the wire is tinned for long life in harsh environments.

3-Bu, and SC (Limited to experience with a 2010 LSV, a 2014 Mondo, and a 2014 SA)
It has been a a few years since I have been elbows deep in a new Bu. The experience that I do have, would put it in a class just like CC overall, except most of the wiring was not tinned. The newer Supras and Moombas are also in this classification. IMO, overall well done systems, but missing a couple of the little details that might help 15-20 years down the road.


Electrical Componentry-

I am going to put MC, and SC in position 1, and CC in position 2. the reason being they use FW Murphy components. I am not going to argue quality on the components, or state anything that deals with touchscreen or software reliability. That is a waste of time. The reason that I chose this, is simply because all of the major electronic componentry comes from one manufacturer. The boat control systems, PDM's, and engine control is all made by the same company to work as one system. I think I can justify it as a fact, that this is, more often than not, going to give a better overall fusion of system operation.

The only reason for MC and SC being rated above CC, is that they have redundant switching that fully bypasses the touchscreen. It might never need to be used, but it is an added feature. I have been through the electrical systems very comprehensively in all of these, and the redundant switching does, in fact, bypass the touchscreen. It does not, however, bypass the power distribution modules. That said, I have heard of plenty of touchscreen failures, but never any PDM failures. (It might be a FACT that others have)


Hull Construction overall- This can certainly be argued, and I am not an engineer, but I will stick to basic observations. We all know that none of the brands suffer from hull failures.

1- CC (referring to G series only)
Considering the fact that is uses a full length stringer system that also incorporates several sections of lateral supports, it is already one of the more rugged "looking" backbones. Add the fact that G series boats also have a heavy duty fiberglass liner incorporated into the entire lower section of the boat, and it really appears to be overbuilt to the max. So much talk about shoebox fit, but a G has a whole additional shoebox in the lower half of the boat. It effectively has a double hull on the entire portion of the hull that is outboard of the center stringers.

On top of that, they have far less holes/openings in the inner deck walls of the boat. This is largely due to the fact that less access is needed to remove seat/trim etc. due to a reason that I will get into in the interior section. (It is actually a downside for CC in that section)

2- MC
Limited to the facts that MC uses a full length stringer system, with lateral supports incorporated into the structure, as well as a one piece deck. Once again overkill IMO, but notable differences of fact.

3- Bu
Neither Bu or SC use full length stringers AFAIK, and they also don't have integrated lateral supports in the framework. I am placing Bu in the third spot, because the MXZ line has one piece top decks. Otherwise, I have a hard time distinguishing the construction differences between a Bu and an SC product. They are very similar (as well as MANY other aspects of these two brands IMO).

4- SC for the reasons above. Obviously still exceptionally well built. Just not overkilled quite as much as the others that I have experience with.


Interior Vinyl-
1-MC
I have to give them the top spot for this for a couple factual reasons that are important to ME. It is just plain cooler in hot weather. It breathes well, and is just plain comfortable.

I have also found it to be extremely durable, but I have no factual observation, or measurable test to compare it to the others. I was simply tasked with having to cut a section out of one of my seats with a razor blade (Installing rear speakers in my X23), and it was VERY difficult to puncture, and to cut. It kinda blew my mind.

2- Bu, CC, and SC-
I honestly don't have any observations to compare these. They have all seemed to be very high quality, and well put together. The only downside, would be that I get sick of the sweat slime on 90+ degree days, and boy do they get hot in the sun.

Bu might actually deserve this spot (or number 1), because they now have stay-cool vinyl as well. However, I don't have experience with it.

CC uses plastic liners, and vented sections on their seats. I think this is to prevent mold issue from ever happening in the foam. I have no evidence that this helps or not.


Base interior construction-

1- MC
Main reason being that all of the seat backs are bolted in with stainless bolts, and the seatbacks have stainless nut inserts. Same goes for all of the seat hinges. Every interior cushion fastener has a stainless nut to thread into. Not a single fastener is threaded into the plastic seat backing.

2- Bu and SC
Many connection points with stainless fasteners and embedded nuts, but not nearly all of them. I have never observed a problem with fastening this way. It might not be as comprehensive, but it seems to work well.

disclaimer- I have never had to remove seatbacks from an SC product. I don't have a lot of detail on the fastening system.

3- CC
All seat backs and vinyl trim panels are installed with plastic Christmas tree push pins, except the rearmost seatbacks which are only held in by a couple self tapping screws..... (are you kidding me??). That said, the hinged seat bases are fastened with stainless bolts that are threaded into stainless embedded nuts in the seat base.

This is the reason for the note on hull construction..... Because you simply pull on the seat backs to remove them, there is no need for access areas to remove bolts. Makes for a stronger hull, but a pathetic fastening system for most of the seating.

However..... I have also never seen anyone have issues with the plastic fasteners.


Trim-
This is a tough one, because matters of "fact" could actually differ, based on personal taste. I will stick to the perceived amount of engineering effort that goes into the components.

1- MC
Pretty sure everyone would agree that they spend more time designing/carving trim than any other manufacturer. Billet might not be everyones favorite, but I think we can agree that it is the most expensive/time consuming to design and manufacture. and it certainly gives you a very high quality finish product.

2- Bu and SC
Both brands blinging it up a bit more than CC, but not quite to the level of MC.

3- CC
Not much effort on going crazy with trim detail. Ironically, I like this fact. I believe a lot of others do as well. CC really takes a classic and basic approach to this.


Towers-
They are all excellent IMO. Thanks for stopping by.

Other componentry-
Seems like most of this stuff is the same in all brands. The more expensive boats just have more expensive versions.

I am sure there are details I missed in my personal observations.

I would love to have construction details for all the other brands, and how they compare to the data above.

Last edited by Fixable; 01-13-2016 at 9:59 AM.
Old     (jbkriss)      Join Date: Mar 2011       01-13-2016, 12:11 PM Reply   
Thanks for taking the time on the write-up.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004 Location: Tyler       01-13-2016, 2:46 PM Reply   
wow. one aspect that I thought would have wildly differing opinions is towers. good to know: they are all excellent
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       01-13-2016, 3:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
wow. one aspect that I thought would have wildly differing opinions is towers. good to know: they are all excellent
Well, I just think, that of the towers in question -zft4, G3, diamondback cc tower, and the Roswell tower on the supras, I didn't have a well justified observation on construction quality. In my experience, they all seemed very stout, and all built in a similar way.

I'm sure lots of folks could argue for hours about functionality, looks, and features, but that has nothing to do with the quality of construction IMO.
Old     (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       01-13-2016, 3:28 PM Reply   
You forgot cost of ownership. How much does it cost to operate and maintain ? After you drop the big bucks,how much does it cost to use it daily or hourly?
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       01-13-2016, 4:13 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
You forgot cost of ownership. How much does it cost to operate and maintain ? After you drop the big bucks,how much does it cost to use it daily or hourly?
That doesn't really have anything to do with quality of construction. Nor do I have enough factual data to come even close to making a comment on that.

If we wanted to turn it into a guessing game, I would say they are all pretty close on average. Of the 4 brands that I have experience with, only one can be considered as "in a different price range" and that is Supra. Even then, they aren't all that much cheaper. Not to mention, there are all sorts of different engine options to consider. (Obviously leaving out the NXT, Axis, and Moombas, as I don't have any of that type of experience with them.)

I think in order for someone to factually comment on cost of ownership, they would have to own many different examples from each brand, all at the same time.
Old     (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-13-2016, 6:11 PM Reply   
Had my 1990 Sanger DX after more than 1100 hours of use still has original interior. It's got some cracking but nothing is falling apart...no seams coming out. The gelcoat is awesome and still shines. The teak is still perfect. The boat is still solid. I bolted in a 2012 383 Merc Stroker with 350 hp...plugged it in to old Merc plug and been playing ever since. Have less than $14k thown into the hole in the water.
Old     (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       01-13-2016, 7:01 PM Reply   
Eric, very nice job. thanks for the effort. honestly i would agree. i do think that cc should bling it up somewhat as compared to mc. i would agree on the wiring diferences of mc and cc. cc splices wires together and all kind of cheap ways. one positive about the xmas tree studs is you can pop off seat backs and stuff and get to access holes or seat repairs easier. just buy more xmas tree studs. and of course you are right about the vinyl. cc is worse vinyl compared to bu and mc. i personally don't know about sc.
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       01-14-2016, 5:35 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bftskir View Post
Had my 1990 Sanger DX after more than 1100 hours of use still has original interior. It's got some cracking but nothing is falling apart...no seams coming out. The gelcoat is awesome and still shines. The teak is still perfect. The boat is still solid. I bolted in a 2012 383 Merc Stroker with 350 hp...plugged it in to old Merc plug and been playing ever since. Have less than $14k thown into the hole in the water.
Sounds like a great boat! But my point on this thread was to hear about construction differences that give you that great boat.

Do you have some of the finer points about Sanger that demonstrate Sangers effort to construct their boats in a superior way? I have never been in one.


Scott- I can definitely agree about the advantages of the CT push pins! You should have seen how excited I was to find out that I could strip my interior in 15 minutes, rather than laying on my back inside compartments for 2 hours removing bolts!

At the same time, I do feel it is a "cheesier" way to install them, but obviously works well enough, and will stand the test of time. Plus, the clips are definitely cheap. I think they only cost me a few cents each, and I only had a couple of them break when I took it all apart.
Old     (cowwboy)      Join Date: Jul 2008       01-14-2016, 6:32 AM Reply   
I agree with the wiring. Looking under the dash of my bu, it looks like a mediocre auto mechanic wired it.
Given it is all zip tied up but no loom, nothing is soldered and not fond of multiple wires into the same crimp connectors.
Is the wiring in the MC more like modern automotive?
If our contractors wired our facilities like that they would get fired.
Old     (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       01-14-2016, 7:20 AM Reply   
If how much it costs to operate a boat doesn't have to do with construction why doesn't it. If what the manufacturer put together doesn't stay together then why buy it? If what a manufacturer designs isn't efficent to operate is that boat still a good value? These are pertinent questions inquiring minds would like to know.
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       01-14-2016, 8:10 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowwboy View Post
I agree with the wiring. Looking under the dash of my bu, it looks like a mediocre auto mechanic wired it.
Given it is all zip tied up but no loom, nothing is soldered and not fond of multiple wires into the same crimp connectors.
Is the wiring in the MC more like modern automotive?
If our contractors wired our facilities like that they would get fired.
More like automotive only in the regard that it is a little cleaner, and more protected. That said, even MC is not close to the level of wiring perfection that a typical automotive application would be IMO. Although, I do wish the automotive world would use more tinned wire. That would save more hassle.


Cwb4me- do you know of one single person that has actually owned a fleet of all of these different brands, and has kept records of costs of ownership on all of them, and can actually make a factual statement on cost of ownership? I certainly don't.....

i see your point that it would be good info to have, but I don't see how anyone could actually have fact based data on something that is that difficult to measure.
Old     (501s)      Join Date: Feb 2010       01-14-2016, 8:54 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
If how much it costs to operate a boat doesn't have to do with construction why doesn't it. If what the manufacturer put together doesn't stay together then why buy it? If what a manufacturer designs isn't efficent to operate is that boat still a good value? These are pertinent questions inquiring minds would like to know.
This seems like an attempt to get Tige into the conversation about quality, a conversation they are rarely in.

And Fixable, that was a great writeup with excellent factual details, Thanks. Having owned new Moomba's and MC's and been in many boats I would agree with all of your points.

Thanks.
Old     (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       01-14-2016, 10:03 AM Reply   
I didn't mention any brands. I just posed a question. I have owned multiple brands and used the same criteria to compare each. I also used cost of ownership. The biggest shock of going from a inboard/outboard or stern drive to a V-Drive is fuel consumption and maintenance cost differences. I also have toured different factories. I think that is beneficial when understanding build quality.LW (501s) i'm sure now that you've stepped up from a Moomba to a Mastercraft you're an expert on what i'm trying to post. It was just a viable point that most boat owners consider when making a purchase. I understand it would be difficult for someone to have information on more than one or two boats. Not everyone can afford boats every couple of years.
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       01-14-2016, 10:21 AM Reply   
That's the thing. I have had 8 new boats and three different brands in the last 8 years and usually put 150ish hours on each. I still wouldn't have any reasonable conclusion on cost of ownership. Without accurately recording every little detail to the last penny, I wouldn't say there was much difference...... But I couldn't actually post anything factual. And even if I could, that is nowhere near a big enough sample size to be an accurate average.
Old     (dougr)      Join Date: Dec 2009       01-14-2016, 12:10 PM Reply   
factual build information is good data, but does not relate to reliability. It could be the best build process but continually fail. Its why consumer reports exists. you could build a product with "the cheapest process" but never have failure, or built it with the "highest quality process" and have continuous failure.
Old     (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       01-14-2016, 2:50 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougr View Post
factual build information is good data, but does not relate to reliability.

Seems pretty true in my experience owning different boats...however it could have something to do with how the boat feels after being around a while.(or not)....

I know my in my own personal experience having owned and been in a few very low hour Sangers they just don't feel as refined or solid as my really high our Mastercraft. Refined probably isn't the right word but things like stiffer steering, or throttles, or other odd things on the low hour Sangers vs a pretty used 1100 hour Mastercraft that I can whip around with one finger if I want to and just feels less "used" somehow. The sangers had 150 hours and another one was around 80 hours. They both just seemed to feel more worn than my mastercraft does...

I have nothing against Sanger...they build a solid machine. And as mentioned I think the maintenance dollars are the same for both.
Old     (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       01-14-2016, 4:07 PM Reply   
Your funny and your point is mute all boats use the same cables. Only real thing a boat manufacturer builds is the hull and the wiring. They also sew together the upholstery but don't make the vinyl. Also some make there own trim pieces but that's it. 95%'of boats are assembled using other companies parts.
Old     (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-14-2016, 4:10 PM Reply   
Facts not "feel"
Old     (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       01-14-2016, 5:43 PM Reply   
You can't do cost of ownership - as everyone is saying - without very detailed records...

And at end of day would not be much different. Every one of these makes and models are the same: big pieces of fiberglass floating around on the water with engines of 3 or 4 different mfgrs. How they are built is fun to discuss for sure, and may make reliability impact after years. does not really factor into cost of ownership too easily.

How about over-engineering cost>>>Here is an example...the pcm fuel canister. big expensive pain in the ass. Why, have to replace that filter in the canister and the inline filter both. just extra cost and big pita.
Old     (davez71)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-14-2016, 6:18 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottb7 View Post
You can't do cost of ownership - as everyone is saying - without very detailed records...

And at end of day would not be much different. Every one of these makes and models are the same: big pieces of fiberglass floating around on the water with engines of 3 or 4 different mfgrs. How they are built is fun to discuss for sure, and may make reliability impact after years. does not really factor into cost of ownership too easily.

How about over-engineering cost>>>Here is an example...the pcm fuel canister. big expensive pain in the ass. Why, have to replace that filter in the canister and the inline filter both. just extra cost and big pita.

Cost of ownership will be to difficult to determine because in different areas, service is completely different in price.
Old     (OneCent)      Join Date: Jul 2010       01-15-2016, 8:52 AM Reply   
"We hear so much talk these days about the quality and fit and finish of these new boats." - that was no different when i bought my first boat in 2010 ;-) - a 2008 Supra 21V with 2 engine hours - i sold that one with 350 Engine hours and bought a used G21.
Old     (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       01-15-2016, 9:24 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bftskir View Post
The boat is still solid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bftskir View Post
Facts not "feel"
Yep. Exactly!

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