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Old    deltahoosier            08-10-2016, 10:29 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph View Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0ba7ed23dd652

Ho ho, I am really starting to come around. Trump suggests Clinton should be shot, hard to disagree.
Love the spin on all this. Not true however good spin.
Old    deltahoosier            08-10-2016, 10:56 AM Reply   
Wonder why you guys are not speaking about Hillary's health? McCain had a issue 10 years prior and he was ran through the coals.

http://www.dangerandplay.com/2016/08...coughing-fits/

http://www.redstate.com/brandon_mors...r-worse-think/

http://www.libertywritersnews.com/20...thing-injects/

Sounds like she may have some serious issues. Diazepam?

https://www.drugs.com/diazepam.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diazepam

Last edited by deltahoosier; 08-10-2016 at 11:00 AM.
Old     (BurnMac42)      Join Date: May 2015       08-10-2016, 11:33 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Guess we need a private military because our govt run one isn't very good, right?
At spending and managing money? No we aren't....and we can debate this all you want but I work in contracting for the DoD so I am the one spending the money and know exactly how inefficient our processes can be.

I've also been in the military since 2003 and Tricare (read universal healthcare) sucks...big time...and wastes money at the monumental level...Medicare/caid actually exceeds ALL weapons/personnel training/sustainment....

You read that right...our Healthcare costs more than the actual side of the military that breaks the bad guys toys...

Doctors have been doing to Tricare for years what they are starting to do to ACA plans....NOT accept them because of how bad working "with" the Government is....


Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post

You say that, but after all these years the republicans have yet to craft anything that remotely looks like a replacement for the ACA. The fact that they repeatedly vote for repealing the ACA, yet have not created an alternative pretty much makes your claims moot.
So the only option is to replace a massively bloated government program with another probably equally piss poor managed program?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post

This is an example of using your head to read between the lines instead of just following the party line of eating their BS. If republicans had a plan for HC then they would do what the democrats did... sell it to the people and try to get it enacted into law. Doing nothing and then whining that the other party is too strong is infantile.
You might want to go back and refresh how the whole ACA came into law. The democrats didn't "sell it to the people"...it was lawyeredthru Congress/Senate with extraordinarily low approval numbers from the general public (who didn't vote on it at all).....

I was also promised (and we have all seen the multiple video clips of Obama claiming this when he was trying to "sell the ACA) that my Health Care costs would NOT go up....Anyone who knows Economics knew no way in hell that was true HOWEVER if you are going to push one of the biggest pieces of legislation thru on a certain promise I'm going to hold you up to that....

Well guess what...BCBS has gone up EVERY year since the ACA was enacted and I am not talking normal inflation rates here...

I guess we can all conveniently "forget" what was promised at the beginning for the greater good then right? History has never shown that to backfire....

Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post

What's the point of a discussion? If I what to know what a conservative thinks, I can just turn on Fox News. When Fox says... "get on your toes", most of you guys start dancing. Want some ransom for your hostages now?
And really dude? MSNBC/Clinton News Network..pick your poison both the left and the right are puppets to certain "News" channels... He dances to Fox News, you frolic to MSNBC...
Old    deltahoosier            08-10-2016, 11:47 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Change "pull" to "put" and "from" to "into", then reread.

If a "healthy" person lives 10 years longer, who is going to put more into the HC money?
I would say the healthy person is the longer term risk. They are going to die of something and it most likely will not be sudden. In the mean time none of us put in enough money that will cover any acute illness or injury. I am pretty sure that most people right now are not putting in enough cash into the system to pay for a surgery or hospital stay in their lifetime. Most of that is being pulled out of those "evil" businesses.
Old     (allzway)      Join Date: Feb 2014       08-10-2016, 2:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnMac42 View Post
And really dude? MSNBC/Clinton News Network..pick your poison both the left and the right are puppets to certain "News" channels... He dances to Fox News, you frolic to MSNBC...
No kidding.. like Faux news is the only biased media source.

http://observer.com/2016/08/wikileak...-with-clinton/

Quote:
Some of the emails released show both CNN and Politico had articles pre-approved by the DNC prior to publication. Politico reporter Ken Vogel had DNC Communications Director Luis Miranda look over an article before he sent it to editors as part of an agreement. Politico has since called Vogel’s actions “a mistake.”

CNN’s Jake Tapper was also implicated. DNC staff discussed in emails, “if we want to offer Jake Tapper questions to ask us” after Tapper’s producer Jason Seher asked what DNC Hispanic Media Director Pablo Manriquez wanted to talk about on the show. Manriquez eventually resigned over DNC staff pushing him to break impartiality. Tapper insists the emails show no wrongdoing on his part, but the rhetoric among DNC staff makes it seem as though it was a standard procedure to write their own questions for CNN interviews.

Last edited by allzway; 08-10-2016 at 2:55 PM.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-10-2016, 5:20 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by allzway View Post
No kidding.. like Faux news is the only biased media source.
You guys are missing the point. Faux News is by far the most successful at manipulating stupid people. The other networks pale in comparison. The polls prove it. I'm not "frolicking" to anything. I've got better things to do than be glued to the tube watching 24/7 entertainment news.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-10-2016, 5:24 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnMac42 View Post
So the only option is to replace a massively bloated government program with another probably equally piss poor managed program?
You tell me. There's that pesky problem of having to present something to the public if you plan to kick them off the HI roles.
Old    deltahoosier            08-10-2016, 5:34 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
You guys are missing the point. Faux News is by far the most successful at manipulating stupid people. The other networks pale in comparison. The polls prove it. I'm not "frolicking" to anything. I've got better things to do than be glued to the tube watching 24/7 entertainment news.
You don't have the time to frolick however we do have the time to watch a news channel 24/7? The whole foxnews meme is old as crap itself. Liberals think they are the only ones with a intelligence and the ability to parse facts. In my own bias, I have found it to be quite the opposite.
Old    deltahoosier            08-10-2016, 5:46 PM Reply   
Hillary Clinton has seizure / convulsions - tries to play it off making fun of seizures CLOSER LOOK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMHO...ature=youtu.be
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       08-10-2016, 6:02 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
Love the spin on all this. Not true however good spin.
Oh please, Republicans are coming out against this. Trump has no filter. I cannot believe the lengths people go to protect (or "spin") the nonsense that comes from his mouth. He has insulted several decorated veterans. He accused Cruz's dad of being in on the JFK assassination. He publicly mocked a disabled man. You can try to kid yourself all you wish, but no one else is buying that bull. You know exactly what he was implying.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-10-2016, 6:03 PM Reply   
I would have liked to see her head spin around exorcist style, but eyes going black was a nice touch tho. I love this US Presidential electoral cycle, it just keeps giving. If Hilderbeast dropped to the floor with foam coming out her mouth I doubt anybody would change their vote to Drumpf. Equally if Trump drop kicks a baby off the stage for crying nobody would change there vote to Hilderbeast. I predict lowest turnout in the poles ever.
Old    deltahoosier            08-10-2016, 6:23 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
Oh please, Republicans are coming out against this. Trump has no filter. I cannot believe the lengths people go to protect (or "spin") the nonsense that comes from his mouth. He has insulted several decorated veterans. He accused Cruz's dad of being in on the JFK assassination. He publicly mocked a disabled man. You can try to kid yourself all you wish, but no one else is buying that bull. You know exactly what he was implying.
No I don't know what he is implying. I support the second amendment and have multiple firearms and did not take it as any signal to shoot anyone. Trump makes for a great sound byte, however they love to take only the sound byte part of his speeches and then leave out the rest. He is not a polished politician and I am OK with that.

BTW, democrats say crap everyday that I find absolutely insulting, dangerous, and actively support genocide against children and you people line up to vote for them by the millions. So what do you want someone to do?

Are you Ok with Hillary getting shots of dangerous drugs to keep her already unstable self going?

Last edited by deltahoosier; 08-10-2016 at 6:26 PM.
Old    deltahoosier            08-10-2016, 6:28 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph View Post
I would have liked to see her head spin around exorcist style, but eyes going black was a nice touch tho. I love this US Presidential electoral cycle, it just keeps giving. If Hilderbeast dropped to the floor with foam coming out her mouth I doubt anybody would change their vote to Drumpf. Equally if Trump drop kicks a baby off the stage for crying nobody would change there vote to Hilderbeast. I predict lowest turnout in the poles ever.
The 46 second mark I think is the part that people are wowing over. You see the reporters face on the side clip. She looks amazed.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       08-10-2016, 6:37 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
No I don't know what he is implying. I support the second amendment and have multiple firearms and did not take it as any signal to shoot anyone. Trump makes for a great sound byte, however they love to take only the sound byte part of his speeches and then leave out the rest. He is not a polished politician and I am OK with that.

BTW, democrats say crap everyday that I find absolutely insulting, dangerous, and actively support genocide against children and you people line up to vote for them by the millions. So what do you want someone to do?

Are you Ok with Hillary getting shots of dangerous drugs to keep her already unstable self going?
Where is anything in Trump's past that suggests he is pro-life? One of his finalists for VP is strongly pro-choice. What has Trump shared that makes you feel he will do anything about abortion. I get so tired of guys like you that suggest the GOP is pro-life. If you would wake up and leave the world of imagination, you would realize that there are plenty of republicans that are pro-choice and there are plenty of democrats that are pro-life.

I have "multiple firearms" myself. What the hell does that have to do with anything?
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-10-2016, 7:07 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
Hillary Clinton has seizure / convulsions - tries to play it off making fun of seizures CLOSER LOOK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMHO...ature=youtu.be
Your tin hat is too tight. Loosen it up and try to get some blood flowing upstairs. There is nothing in that video remotely close to playing off anything. Stupid video clips making people dumber by the day. If you look at the unedited video instead of the edited for dummies version you posted it appears that she is making an exaggerated reaction to someone who blurted out a question about Sen Warren. It appears that she is trying to use humor to deflect the question and makes some comment about the chai tea. Only an idiot would think it's some weird seizure or making fun of people with seizures.

Trump unmistakably makes fun of a handicapped person and the Hillary detractors make a f**k'n dumba$$ attempt to cobble up a edited video claiming Hillary is doing the same. And you wonder why we think Trump supporters are stupid when they try to pass this s**t off as serious.
Old     (doublemwa)      Join Date: May 2016       08-11-2016, 6:29 AM Reply   
I just read a quote by Rudy Giuliani that Clinton is "the most corrupt presidential candidate of all time". Statistically, absolutes tend to be false. So I did a search and found this forgotten gem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_W...il_controversy

The RNC is a non-profit corporation, so by definition Bush used a private email server to which he deleted an estimated 5M emails! Colin Powell aside, when are Trump supporters going to quit making a mountain over Clintons emails?
Old     (allzway)      Join Date: Feb 2014       08-11-2016, 7:47 AM Reply   
Old    TheWakeIsReal            08-11-2016, 8:33 AM Reply   
Oh man. Trump now saying ISIS was created by Obama. Pretty known knowledge that was all on Bush. Trump's cronies will probably fall for it at this point though.
Old     (BurnMac42)      Join Date: May 2015       08-11-2016, 9:33 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublemwa View Post
I just read a quote by Rudy Giuliani that Clinton is "the most corrupt presidential candidate of all time". Statistically, absolutes tend to be false. So I did a search and found this forgotten gem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_W...il_controversy

The RNC is a non-profit corporation, so by definition Bush used a private email server to which he deleted an estimated 5M emails! Colin Powell aside, when are Trump supporters going to quit making a mountain over Clintons emails?
I'm not a Trump supporter by any means however what she did with emails would have had my clearance stripped, I would have lost my job, and I would more than likely be in jail for a very, very long time.

It's that double standard that every politician at that level appears to abuse that rubs people the wrong way.....The Clinton's just have a longer, bit more egregious record than most.....
Old     (BurnMac42)      Join Date: May 2015       08-11-2016, 9:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWakeIsReal View Post
Oh man. Trump now saying ISIS was created by Obama. Pretty known knowledge that was all on Bush. Trump's cronies will probably fall for it at this point though.
Interesting....pretty known knowledge?

I am still amazed to this day how people on the left and the right utterly disregard fact when it doesn't align with their political view....

ISIS is just an organization that formed in the wake of the drawdown and took advantage of a power vacuum when we left. The formation cannot be placed on any one individual HOWEVER what helped them rise to power so quickly in part was the decision to withdraw our troops in one fell swoop vs a tiered approach.

Many, many flag officers from all branches both active and retired have testified to that...

SO...that is probably what Trump is laying at Obama's feet.

And dude really? 8 yrs of Obama and still using Bush? 2008 (and 2012) is calling and they want their excuses back....

Last edited by BurnMac42; 08-11-2016 at 9:44 AM.
Old    deltahoosier            08-11-2016, 9:54 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
Where is anything in Trump's past that suggests he is pro-life? One of his finalists for VP is strongly pro-choice. What has Trump shared that makes you feel he will do anything about abortion. I get so tired of guys like you that suggest the GOP is pro-life. If you would wake up and leave the world of imagination, you would realize that there are plenty of republicans that are pro-choice and there are plenty of democrats that are pro-life.

I have "multiple firearms" myself. What the hell does that have to do with anything?
Where in my writing did I suggest Trump was pro life? I am saying straight out it is in the democrat platform as a thing they are proud of. Sure there are people on both sides of the issues but it is not a platform item to keep it going for Republicans. Hillary is on video claiming Margaret Sanger is her hero. The same racist Sanger who started the abortion industry to help keep the black population down.
Old    deltahoosier            08-11-2016, 10:00 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Your tin hat is too tight. Loosen it up and try to get some blood flowing upstairs. There is nothing in that video remotely close to playing off anything. Stupid video clips making people dumber by the day. If you look at the unedited video instead of the edited for dummies version you posted it appears that she is making an exaggerated reaction to someone who blurted out a question about Sen Warren. It appears that she is trying to use humor to deflect the question and makes some comment about the chai tea. Only an idiot would think it's some weird seizure or making fun of people with seizures.

Trump unmistakably makes fun of a handicapped person and the Hillary detractors make a f**k'n dumba$$ attempt to cobble up a edited video claiming Hillary is doing the same. And you wonder why we think Trump supporters are stupid when they try to pass this s**t off as serious.
There is more than that video. Her joke about the tea was a cover for her seizure. Her eyes were going different directions. Why does she have a medical handler? Why has she fallen a few times. One time she broke her elbow. Another she got a concussion where she took 6 months to recover. She had a blood clot in her head. Her medical handler walks around with her with looks like a Diazepam injector. The black guy who follows her with the injector is not a Secret Service guy. They usually don't have plump dudes on staff. Her medical handler had to tell her to keep speaking when a protestor was in the crowd and she froze. She has to be helped up the stairs. She had to take extended breaks during the democrat debates.

There is something up with her.
Old    TheWakeIsReal            08-11-2016, 10:07 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnMac42 View Post
Interesting....pretty known knowledge?

I am still amazed to this day how people on the left and the right utterly disregard fact when it doesn't align with their political view....

ISIS is just an organization that formed in the wake of the drawdown and took advantage of a power vacuum when we left. The formation cannot be placed on any one individual HOWEVER what helped them rise to power so quickly in part was the decision to withdraw our troops in one fell swoop vs a tiered approach.

Many, many flag officers from all branches both active and retired have testified to that...

SO...that is probably what Trump is laying at Obama's feet.

And dude really? 8 yrs of Obama and still using Bush? 2008 (and 2012) is calling and they want their excuses back....
Do you understand the background of Iraq? Papa Bush knew better than to disturb that place. W. had ZERO clue what he was doing when he was going in there. You understand that they took advantage of the power vacuum, but if W. had any clue on the background of that part of the world there is no way he would have went in. Papa Bush knew this, and his son wouldn't listen.

It was an incredibly unpopular war that the plug had to be pulled on at some point.

You sound exactly like Trump LOL. "Many, Many". Classic. Do some reading on the backgrounds on the two groups in Iraq and why Papa Bush didn't topple Saddam.
Old    deltahoosier            08-11-2016, 10:16 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWakeIsReal View Post
Do you understand the background of Iraq? Papa Bush knew better than to disturb that place. W. had ZERO clue what he was doing when he was going in there. You understand that they took advantage of the power vacuum, but if W. had any clue on the background of that part of the world there is no way he would have went in. Papa Bush knew this, and his son wouldn't listen.

It was an incredibly unpopular war that the plug had to be pulled on at some point.

You sound exactly like Trump LOL. "Many, Many". Classic. Do some reading on the backgrounds on the two groups in Iraq and why Papa Bush didn't topple Saddam.
Regardless of Papa Bush. Jr. had the backing of many democrats including Hillary, Gore, Clinton and Clinton. Actually it was the support of Bush from the moderate democrats at the time that allowed for the power vacuum in the democrat party for the progressives to take over. The democrats were getting crushed and they allowed the anti war part of the party to take over to get some traction against the republicans in national elections.

I think 9/11 changed majority of the peoples minds in regards to the middle east and allowing sponsors of terrorism to stay in power. May have been an over reaction. I can accept that train of thought after the fact.

Since the democrats are so anti war. Why were we and why are we still in Afgahnistan? Bin Laden was driven out of the area within weeks and has been dead for how long?
Old    deltahoosier            08-11-2016, 10:20 AM Reply   
How soon do people forget about Obama being reckless with his words.

Obama: ‘If They Bring a Knife to the Fight, We Bring a Gun’

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/0...e-bring-a-gun/
Old    TheWakeIsReal            08-11-2016, 10:30 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
Regardless of Papa Bush. Jr. had the backing of many democrats including Hillary, Gore, Clinton and Clinton. Actually it was the support of Bush from the moderate democrats at the time that allowed for the power vacuum in the democrat party for the progressives to take over. The democrats were getting crushed and they allowed the anti war part of the party to take over to get some traction against the republicans in national elections.

I think 9/11 changed majority of the peoples minds in regards to the middle east and allowing sponsors of terrorism to stay in power. May have been an over reaction. I can accept that train of thought after the fact.

Since the democrats are so anti war. Why were we and why are we still in Afgahnistan? Bin Laden was driven out of the area within weeks and has been dead for how long?
I was actually fine with Afghanistan. We needed to respond to a direct attack on American soil and the country was in turmoil. Rather simple there. Iraq? Not so much.

Again, you keep going back to Dems and the war. We were 50/50, but do you think that if Bush wasn't so gung-ho on the subject that it would have happened? No, absolutely not.
Old    TheWakeIsReal            08-11-2016, 10:32 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
How soon do people forget about Obama being reckless with his words.

Obama: ‘If They Bring a Knife to the Fight, We Bring a Gun’

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/0...e-bring-a-gun/
Not quite the same as calling for a group of armed citizens to deal with the candidate. I get where you're going, and they can both be spun, but Trump's is far worse in this matter.
Old    deltahoosier            08-11-2016, 10:58 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWakeIsReal View Post
I was actually fine with Afghanistan. We needed to respond to a direct attack on American soil and the country was in turmoil. Rather simple there. Iraq? Not so much.

Again, you keep going back to Dems and the war. We were 50/50, but do you think that if Bush wasn't so gung-ho on the subject that it would have happened? No, absolutely not.
I agree. Ultimately Bush pulled the trigger. I think Bush was more of a facilitator vs a dictator though. He even said that the country was 50/50 and he would let congress do their job. I think he listened to the people in the room, then stepped out and represented that opinion like management does. I would say if Muslims did not ram jets into our buildings, we would have not gone into Iraq either.

I was not fine with Afghanistan at all. Still not fine with it. Just because a place is in turmoil does not mean they need US troops. They did not need them then and they certainly don't need them now.

Saddam attacked US jets daily in violation of the UN security council and we had the receipt for the gas we sold him. Matter of fact that gas was used in Syria.
Old    deltahoosier            08-11-2016, 11:02 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWakeIsReal View Post
Not quite the same as calling for a group of armed citizens to deal with the candidate. I get where you're going, and they can both be spun, but Trump's is far worse in this matter.
Spin is spin though. Since when does saying "maybe 2nd amendment people" equate to murder? Sounds like the same people who suspend kids from school because they made their finger into a gun.
Old    TheWakeIsReal            08-11-2016, 11:05 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
Spin is spin though. Since when does saying "maybe 2nd amendment people" equate to murder? Sounds like the same people who suspend kids from school because they made their finger into a gun.
I truly don't really care about the comment. It is just more of a heads up as to what Trump could possibly say if he were in the position of president. I know it doesn't seem like a big deal here, but if he were to slip up and say things that could be taken out of context with another country, then we would have a problem.
Old    TheWakeIsReal            08-11-2016, 11:11 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
I agree. Ultimately Bush pulled the trigger. I think Bush was more of a facilitator vs a dictator though. He even said that the country was 50/50 and he would let congress do their job. I think he listened to the people in the room, then stepped out and represented that opinion like management does. I would say if Muslims did not ram jets into our buildings, we would have not gone into Iraq either.

I was not fine with Afghanistan at all. Still not fine with it. Just because a place is in turmoil does not mean they need US troops. They did not need them then and they certainly don't need them now.

Saddam attacked US jets daily in violation of the UN security council and we had the receipt for the gas we sold him. Matter of fact that gas was used in Syria.
Bush himself said Iraq had zero to do with 9/11. Bush and Cheney both peddled propaganda for a war in Iraq beforehand. Which is why I place a lot of blame on Bush.

I'm not trying to get that far into Iraq, I'm just laughing at the notion that ISIS is somehow Obama's creation. No matter the side, this is simply false.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       08-11-2016, 11:20 AM Reply   
Are any republicans in this thread worried about the future of the GOP?

I sorta feel like this Trump wave is a rebellion from the bottom that disavows "elites" and their "policies" and "expertise" and "experience" in favor of allegiance to a man (can't say allegiance to agenda because his agenda shifts like quicksand).

None of you guys are worried about killing off all of the conservative intellectuals? That didn't seem to work out too well for Cambodia, China, etc. I mean if I were Newt with my super professorial sanctimonious presentation, I'd be kinda worried right now (his phony supposed disdain for "east coast elites" notwithstanding).

Strange days.
Old     (BurnMac42)      Join Date: May 2015       08-11-2016, 11:43 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWakeIsReal View Post
Do you understand the background of Iraq? Papa Bush knew better than to disturb that place. W. had ZERO clue what he was doing when he was going in there. You understand that they took advantage of the power vacuum, but if W. had any clue on the background of that part of the world there is no way he would have went in. Papa Bush knew this, and his son wouldn't listen.

It was an incredibly unpopular war that the plug had to be pulled on at some point.

You sound exactly like Trump LOL. "Many, Many". Classic. Do some reading on the backgrounds on the two groups in Iraq and why Papa Bush didn't topple Saddam.
Sigh.....

Calm down dude....your pores are oozing Clinton Cream we all get it....I'm not a Trump fan nor am I a Hillary fan..I know it's really, really hard to grasp in politics that just because someone doesn't agree with you that you don't need to start foaming at the mouth and claiming enemy from the other side...

I'll bite on the Iraq thing but before I waste my time debating this with you please tell me you aren't a millennial who has only read everything he knows about Iraq from the internet?

As for me, I was actually in Baghdad (again) over the New Year so I'll start with my experience has come from actually operating in these country(s) that you are such an expert on...

So...what does a big, bad keyboard warrior such as yourself have to bring to this discussion that isn't just regurgitating either the left or rights open-source Google Search BS?
Old    TheWakeIsReal            08-11-2016, 11:50 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnMac42 View Post
Sigh.....

Calm down dude....your pores are oozing Clinton Cream we all get it....I'm not a Trump fan nor am I a Hillary fan..I know it's really, really hard to grasp in politics that just because someone doesn't agree with you that you don't need to start foaming at the mouth and claiming enemy from the other side...

I'll bite on the Iraq thing but before I waste my time debating this with you please tell me you aren't a millennial who has only read everything he knows about Iraq from the internet?

As for me, I was actually in Baghdad (again) over the New Year so I'll start with my experience has come from actually operating in these country(s) that you are such an expert on...

So...what does a big, bad keyboard warrior such as yourself have to bring to this discussion that isn't just regurgitating either the left or rights open-source Google Search BS?
Definitely not a Clinton creamer. Lesser of two evils in my eyes.

First thanks for your service. I had several friends do tours in Iraq as well.

Being over there you must understand that the demographic over there wasn't correct for a regime change. It would have been like an outside country coming into the southern slave times and overthrowing the whites and giving power to slaves. What do you think would have happened? In a perfect world the slaves would have treated their previous harsh owners with compassion, but in a real world it would be just the opposite. Much like what happened when the regime in Iraq was overthrown.

Would love to hear your perspective on it, honestly. My main issue is Trump throwing this mess on Obama, if you wanna put some of it on him for pulling out of the war when public support was at an all time low, then fine. But to put the full extent of ISIS on Obama is laughable.
Old     (BurnMac42)      Join Date: May 2015       08-11-2016, 12:10 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWakeIsReal View Post
Definitely not a Clinton creamer. Lesser of two evils in my eyes.

First thanks for your service. I had several friends do tours in Iraq as well.

Being over there you must understand that the demographic over there wasn't correct for a regime change. It would have been like an outside country coming into the southern slave times and overthrowing the whites and giving power to slaves. What do you think would have happened? In a perfect world the slaves would have treated their previous harsh owners with compassion, but in a real world it would be just the opposite. Much like what happened when the regime in Iraq was overthrown.

Would love to hear your perspective on it, honestly. My main issue is Trump throwing this mess on Obama, if you wanna put some of it on him for pulling out of the war when public support was at an all time low, then fine. But to put the full extent of ISIS on Obama is laughable.
Of course it's laughable and it's why I said in my first post that ISIS can not be blamed on any one person...

One simple fact of the matter that we (all Americans) don't understand is that many in the Middle East do not value human life the way we do.

I was in a planning cell for an exercise a few years ago and we were playing with our coalition partners. The U.S. was bringing over a B52 to drop live rounds as part of the exercise. When we asked our host nation where to drop our bombs the host pointed to a point on the map and said "here"...The WSO then asked the logical follow up which was "is that a bomb range"?
Response: No, it's open desert...
WSO: What happens if we hit someone?
Host: Then it is INSHALLAH (dead serious)
WSO: Yeah, that's not going to work for us..

The point in mentioning that is ISIS (or whichever crazy group is the flavor of the month) has been there long before we started meddling and the culture is so vastly different that it's hard for American who haven't actually been knee deep in it to understand it....

The Iraq invasion albeit could have been handled better but it was a decision that didn't have a "good" answer.

They were actively targeting/shooting at our Overwatch CAP missions, they were actively funding/supplying terrorists in Afghanistan, laundering money in the whole UN Food for Oil BS, slaughtering their own people, and it's now open source that they did in fact have WMDs....the list keeps going...

Now if we want to Monday morning quarterback a war could things have been handled better? Sure, but it's a freakin war...

Trump is just playing the politics game...both sides are just as guilty making outrageous claims about the other side and it just heats up more and more as the polls get closer...

I'm not saying I would say what Trump said HOWEVER it is (in modern politics) easily defendable using the reason I stated above on blaming Obama for ISIS based on the quick withdrawal....
Old    deltahoosier            08-11-2016, 12:47 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
Are any republicans in this thread worried about the future of the GOP?

I sorta feel like this Trump wave is a rebellion from the bottom that disavows "elites" and their "policies" and "expertise" and "experience" in favor of allegiance to a man (can't say allegiance to agenda because his agenda shifts like quicksand).

None of you guys are worried about killing off all of the conservative intellectuals? That didn't seem to work out too well for Cambodia, China, etc. I mean if I were Newt with my super professorial sanctimonious presentation, I'd be kinda worried right now (his phony supposed disdain for "east coast elites" notwithstanding).

Strange days.
Not really. All the usual people are still elected to all their usual positions in congress and local leadership. If I am correct, at this time the GOP has historic number of seats in national and local government. I am sure that too will regress to the mean.

With Trump. I think people are tired of lip service and Trump sounds like a guy who is finally on the side of American's for a change and not on the side of internationalists. There are several things that are absolutely glaring that people from either party will not say out loud that is screwed up. We have just spent 8 years where regular folks are being told more and more that they are the problem when they know the government is the problem. Trump is willing to stand up and say those things are screwed up and it is resonating.
Old    deltahoosier            08-11-2016, 12:49 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWakeIsReal View Post
I truly don't really care about the comment. It is just more of a heads up as to what Trump could possibly say if he were in the position of president. I know it doesn't seem like a big deal here, but if he were to slip up and say things that could be taken out of context with another country, then we would have a problem.
I agree. He does need to be more mindful
Old    TheWakeIsReal            08-11-2016, 1:08 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnMac42 View Post
Of course it's laughable and it's why I said in my first post that ISIS can not be blamed on any one person...

One simple fact of the matter that we (all Americans) don't understand is that many in the Middle East do not value human life the way we do.

I was in a planning cell for an exercise a few years ago and we were playing with our coalition partners. The U.S. was bringing over a B52 to drop live rounds as part of the exercise. When we asked our host nation where to drop our bombs the host pointed to a point on the map and said "here"...The WSO then asked the logical follow up which was "is that a bomb range"?
Response: No, it's open desert...
WSO: What happens if we hit someone?
Host: Then it is INSHALLAH (dead serious)
WSO: Yeah, that's not going to work for us..

The point in mentioning that is ISIS (or whichever crazy group is the flavor of the month) has been there long before we started meddling and the culture is so vastly different that it's hard for American who haven't actually been knee deep in it to understand it....

The Iraq invasion albeit could have been handled better but it was a decision that didn't have a "good" answer.

They were actively targeting/shooting at our Overwatch CAP missions, they were actively funding/supplying terrorists in Afghanistan, laundering money in the whole UN Food for Oil BS, slaughtering their own people, and it's now open source that they did in fact have WMDs....the list keeps going...

Now if we want to Monday morning quarterback a war could things have been handled better? Sure, but it's a freakin war...

Trump is just playing the politics game...both sides are just as guilty making outrageous claims about the other side and it just heats up more and more as the polls get closer...

I'm not saying I would say what Trump said HOWEVER it is (in modern politics) easily defendable using the reason I stated above on blaming Obama for ISIS based on the quick withdrawal....
I think we agree on most parts of this conversation. Interesting inside look into how it works over there.

Monday quarterbacking is the best. In regards to this though, years down the road even without Iraqi Freedom, the region could have become unstable. So fully agree with you, just don't agree with Trumps antics.
Old    deltahoosier            08-11-2016, 1:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWakeIsReal View Post
I think we agree on most parts of this conversation. Interesting inside look into how it works over there.

Monday quarterbacking is the best. In regards to this though, years down the road even without Iraqi Freedom, the region could have become unstable. So fully agree with you, just don't agree with Trumps antics.
All this makes me wonder if this changes the left's stance on "The US meddling" in the middle east affairs comments they always used to complain about. They would always complain that the US would prop up certain dictators and so on. I think to a certain degree that this vindicates that yes, we should have been propping up certain dictators as they were the only ones watching the asylum.
Old    bigdtx            08-11-2016, 1:55 PM Reply   
If we put as much effort behind finding a renewable and clean replacement for fossil fuels as we have creating / destroying these dictators in oil rich wastelands this issue would be moot. ISIS makes their money off oil and ISIS is nothing more than the disbanded Iraqi and Syrian military operating with impunity in the territories that we destabilized with the removal of Saddam (and failed attempted removal of Assad).

Prior to World War II all rubber came from trees. When it became painfully obvious that there weren't enough rubber trees on the planet to put tires on trucks in combat - guess what - they found a way to create synthetic rubber. Unfortunately at the moment synthetic rubber is made from oil, but I bet given the proper incentive that could change along with crude oil itself.

I have to laugh and think about "Idiocracy" where all scientific research was focused on curing male pattern baldness and impotence.
Old     (allzway)      Join Date: Feb 2014       08-11-2016, 3:11 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
Are any republicans in this thread worried about the future of the GOP?

I sorta feel like this Trump wave is a rebellion from the bottom that disavows "elites" and their "policies" and "expertise" and "experience" in favor of allegiance to a man (can't say allegiance to agenda because his agenda shifts like quicksand).

None of you guys are worried about killing off all of the conservative intellectuals? That didn't seem to work out too well for Cambodia, China, etc. I mean if I were Newt with my super professorial sanctimonious presentation, I'd be kinda worried right now (his phony supposed disdain for "east coast elites" notwithstanding).

Strange days.
Would blowing up both parties be a bad thing? They both are so full of suck.

For now, it might just be the GOP since that group is the only ones willing to admit that their candidate sucks and isn't fit for office. The others seem fine to openly support Clinton.
Old    deltahoosier            08-11-2016, 3:18 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdtx View Post
If we put as much effort behind finding a renewable and clean replacement for fossil fuels as we have creating / destroying these dictators in oil rich wastelands this issue would be moot. ISIS makes their money off oil and ISIS is nothing more than the disbanded Iraqi and Syrian military operating with impunity in the territories that we destabilized with the removal of Saddam (and failed attempted removal of Assad).

Prior to World War II all rubber came from trees. When it became painfully obvious that there weren't enough rubber trees on the planet to put tires on trucks in combat - guess what - they found a way to create synthetic rubber. Unfortunately at the moment synthetic rubber is made from oil, but I bet given the proper incentive that could change along with crude oil itself.

I have to laugh and think about "Idiocracy" where all scientific research was focused on curing male pattern baldness and impotence.
Maybe if they cured male pattern baldness and impotence, all those middle east guys would not be so uptight.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-11-2016, 4:09 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdtx View Post
If we put as much effort behind finding a renewable and clean replacement for fossil fuels as we have creating / destroying these dictators in oil rich wastelands this issue would be moot. ISIS makes their money off oil and ISIS is nothing more than the disbanded Iraqi and Syrian military operating with impunity in the territories that we destabilized with the removal of Saddam (and failed attempted removal of Assad).
This x 1,000,000. Straight up, wisdom like this is missing from most of the government drones.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       08-11-2016, 8:36 PM Reply   
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       08-11-2016, 9:26 PM Reply   
It really says something that I am 50/50 on whether that is real or not.
Old     (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-11-2016, 10:33 PM Reply   
Can't be real.... But I live in Utah....
Old     (doublemwa)      Join Date: May 2016       08-12-2016, 7:50 AM Reply   
Trump says the Media is against him. Does he not understand that he alone is responsible for the content of their reports? My argument is that his entertainment value got him through the primaries, and subsequently the media's attention. Why can't he now get a policy, a vetted plan, or a story with some substance out for to report on? Point being, If he would stop speaking in headlines that either need defending or are easily debunked then it wouldn't be a jump from one drama to the next. That is assuming he has something that is vetted or substantive. I would think that there is opportunity in having this much coverage.

http://theweek.com/articles/641597/w...mp-differently

I love James' make a case for one without mentioning the other, but for comparison. Hillary is doing the same number of events that gets far less coverage, positive or negative. She also isn't on stage promoting violence, telling lies, or some other outlandish form of campaigning. Secondly, where is Gary Johnson's coverage? If the media is biased, then it is Gary Johnson who is getting the short end of the stick. He has had two town hall events that didn't generate a single headline.

To keep track of all that is now against Trump:

1. Anyone who is marginally liberal
2. A growing list of elected republican leaders
3. The Media (I assume this includes Faux News)
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       08-12-2016, 8:54 AM Reply   
Exactly. If trump could stop *******ing himself he'd do a lot better. Can't imagine what it's like to be a staffer for him.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       08-12-2016, 8:55 AM Reply   
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha wakeworld filters
Old     (allzway)      Join Date: Feb 2014       08-12-2016, 8:59 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
Exactly. If trump could stop *******ing himself he'd do a lot better. Can't imagine what it's like to be a staffer for him.
Has to be one of the worst jobs ever.. right up there with Bagdad Bob.
Old     (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       08-14-2016, 8:12 AM Reply   
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwo.../#5336cf94773b

I'm not sure Trump is the answer, but my fear is that slimeillry will listen to this load of crap.......dangerous, scary stuff
Old     (doublemwa)      Join Date: May 2016       08-15-2016, 7:23 AM Reply   
5 Predictions for Trump's upcoming ISIS speech:

1. "Bomb the **** of them" or some other outlandish statement that emphasizes the word "tough"
2. Some form of a faith test before issuing a visa and/or some form of a "ban" or limiting certain countries.
3. At least 3 statements that are factually incorrect
4. Blame everything on Obama and Hillary, subsequently leaving out any real substance to how his plan will work
5. He will read from a teleprompter

Any other guess?
Old     (fouroheight68)      Join Date: May 2006       08-15-2016, 8:17 AM Reply   
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/us...ald-trump.html

"Handwritten ledgers show $12.7 million in undisclosed cash payments designated for Mr. Manafort from Mr. Yanukovych’s pro-Russian political party from 2007 to 2012, according to Ukraine’s newly formed National Anti-Corruption Bureau. "

Pro-Trumper's - please stop trying to convince yourself you want Trump for president.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       08-15-2016, 11:17 AM Reply   
Trump is going to get crushed. I really expected the wheels would've fallen off his campaign by this time last year, but at this point I think the end is nigh. He's defensive, campaign is in disarray, no outreach to convert independents to his message, campaigning in states he'll never win and not paying attention to battleground states... he's toast.

GOP really needs to figure out how to sell an alternative vision to nonwhites. Till that happens the presidency is out of reach. Sure there are still many predominately white house districts and right leaning states, so house and senate impacts can probably be mitigated for a while. But the GOP needs a plan that appeals to the future not the past.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       08-15-2016, 11:20 AM Reply   
The short-term question is how badly he's going to hurt the Senate. Long term the presidency seems more and more out of reach for the GOP (or what's going to be left of it after the dust settles).
Old     (doublemwa)      Join Date: May 2016       08-16-2016, 4:43 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by pesos View Post
The short-term question is how badly he's going to hurt the Senate. Long term the presidency seems more and more out of reach for the GOP (or what's going to be left of it after the dust settles).
You're right, I think that is the big question. I also wonder what will happen to the career politicians who got behind him. The Chris Christie (hes joke anyway), Ben Carson, or Rudy Giuliani. If trump continues his death spiral, no one in Washington is going to take them serious.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-16-2016, 11:08 PM Reply   
Trump will lose because he can't stay on message and avoid near daily unforced errors saying exceedingly offensive stuff. This saddens me because many Americans were excited about putting an aggressive outsider into office with a plan for fixing illegal immigration, tackling Islamic terrorism, erasing nation building, undoing bad trade deals, rethinking relationships with crap countries and undoing undesirable globalism. Hillary is crap and she should have been easy to beat. Sad.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       08-16-2016, 11:11 PM Reply   
The thing is that Trump doesn't actually have any plans for any of those things... I think (sane) people like the idea of Trump but not the reality. Except these idiots, they like the real deal:

Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       08-17-2016, 3:33 AM Reply   
And the Drumpf meltdown continues

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/17/politi...aul/index.html
Old     (BurnMac42)      Join Date: May 2015       08-17-2016, 5:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddad View Post
Trump will lose because he can't stay on message and avoid near daily unforced errors saying exceedingly offensive stuff. This saddens me because many Americans were excited about putting an aggressive outsider into office with a plan for fixing illegal immigration, tackling Islamic terrorism, erasing nation building, undoing bad trade deals, rethinking relationships with crap countries and undoing undesirable globalism. Hillary is crap and she should have been easy to beat. Sad.
Nobody is going to fix those issues in 4 yrs nor will Congress/Senate allow (left or right) President to fix those issues.

Go back to Obama's 2008 campaign...he promised to fix many of those issues (particularly the overseas ones)...now go and find the video that shows him coming out of his first TS brief with the Joint Chiefs and his face looks ashen because reality just smacked him in the face and he realized it wouldn't near as easy a fix as his entire campaign promised it would be......both sides are fully guilty of this...

Bottom line is, until you are read in on the real scope of the problems all these campaign trail promises are empty promises to get votes
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       08-17-2016, 5:44 AM Reply   
That triumph bit is hilarious. And sad. And not a little bit scary.

Trump's problem is him. He got where he got in the primaries by being the most outrageous, the most outlandish. The Kardashian candidate.

Thing is I think he's being honest about being "true to self" when asked why he doesn't pivot. He really is that impulsive, insecure, unfocused, and mean.

Is the campaign management shakeup going to close his twitter account? Is it going to stop him from basking in the adulation of his kool-aid drinkers at his rallies?

While I disagree with the politics of it, diamonddad is a smart guy, and I agree that some of Trump's positions, if presented well, would/could sell. Trump just doesn't have the discipline to git 'er done.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-17-2016, 9:46 AM Reply   
IMO, many of these things can be improved or repaired in 4 to 8 years...

1) reduce impact of lobbyists -- we have a government for the lobbyists by the lobbyists.
2) fixing illegal immigration -- enforce existing laws, stop illegal influx but don't round up.
3) tackling Islamic terrorism -- Islam has a problem that Muslims must fix. Non-Muslims cannot fix this. War can disturb it but never fix it.
4) erasing nation building -- the Iraq war was the biggest blunder in USA history. Staying in Afghanistan hoping to "change" them was also a wasted effort.
5) undoing bad trade deals -- trade with countries that have cheap labor exports jobs for cheaper products. We have been doing this for 20 years and it is now massively impacting employment in the USA. China protects their workforce while we are just stupid. China and Mexico will gladly take our jobs while hardly buying our products. Mexico has no wallet. China protects their wallet.
6) rethinking relationships with crap countries -- Saudi Arabia for example is an awful place. Many Arab countries are equally bad.
7) undoing undesirable globalism -- the USA does not want a common denominator lifestyle. Many countries in Europe are ruining themselves. America-First.
Old    TheWakeIsReal            08-17-2016, 9:51 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnMac42 View Post
Nobody is going to fix those issues in 4 yrs nor will Congress/Senate allow (left or right) President to fix those issues.

Go back to Obama's 2008 campaign...he promised to fix many of those issues (particularly the overseas ones)...now go and find the video that shows him coming out of his first TS brief with the Joint Chiefs and his face looks ashen because reality just smacked him in the face and he realized it wouldn't near as easy a fix as his entire campaign promised it would be......both sides are fully guilty of this...

Bottom line is, until you are read in on the real scope of the problems all these campaign trail promises are empty promises to get votes
This is why I found the Bernie movement laughable. I actually like a lot of the ideas he has. But none of them would even come close to happening, further driving us into political gridlock. But I bet those same Bernice people also shared the Kony story.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-17-2016, 9:52 AM Reply   
"Staying in Afghanistan hoping to "change" them was also a wasted effort."

Afghanistan was a blunder as well. We should have invaded, got Bin Laden, f**k'd up the Taliban good for harboring them, and then let them clean up their own mess. That war should have lasted less than a year with zero dollars spent trying to win "hearts and minds".

I'm not sure exactly what "protects their workforce means", but it's clear that we should not allow a country with standards lower than we require on domestic workers/industry to import products with no tariff designed to address that inequity and put American companies on equal competitive footing.
Old     (BurnMac42)      Join Date: May 2015       08-17-2016, 10:25 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
"Staying in Afghanistan hoping to "change" them was also a wasted effort."

Afghanistan was a blunder as well. We should have invaded, got Bin Laden, f**k'd up the Taliban good for harboring them, and then let them clean up their own mess. That war should have lasted less than a year with zero dollars spent trying to win "hearts and minds".
.
Working on sims in 1985 teach ya that?

Lets leave the operating to real, ya know...operators...
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       08-17-2016, 10:54 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddad View Post
IMO, many of these things can be improved or repaired in 4 to 8 years...

1) reduce impact of lobbyists -- we have a government for the lobbyists by the lobbyists.
2) fixing illegal immigration -- enforce existing laws, stop illegal influx but don't round up.
3) tackling Islamic terrorism -- Islam has a problem that Muslims must fix. Non-Muslims cannot fix this. War can disturb it but never fix it.
4) erasing nation building -- the Iraq war was the biggest blunder in USA history. Staying in Afghanistan hoping to "change" them was also a wasted effort.
5) undoing bad trade deals -- trade with countries that have cheap labor exports jobs for cheaper products. We have been doing this for 20 years and it is now massively impacting employment in the USA. China protects their workforce while we are just stupid. China and Mexico will gladly take our jobs while hardly buying our products. Mexico has no wallet. China protects their wallet.
6) rethinking relationships with crap countries -- Saudi Arabia for example is an awful place. Many Arab countries are equally bad.
7) undoing undesirable globalism -- the USA does not want a common denominator lifestyle. Many countries in Europe are ruining themselves. America-First.
I don't really have a problem with lobbyists per se. They know how government works and can assist their clients with getting to the right people. I mean, I don't have a problem hiring a guide to climb Everest either. The thing that's problematic is graft, corruption, bribery.

The USA has always had a common denominator lifestyle. I mean unless you also want to stamp out Chinatown, Koreatown, Little Italy, Miami... etc etc etc in favor of some kind of bland "baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and Chevrolet" vision?

We have thrived because we have a live and let live mentality where law abiding citizens are free to succeed and worship (or not) as they choose.

As far as China and Mexico not buying stuff from us, you do realize that they are our #2 (Mexico) and #3 (China) buyers of our exports behind Canada, right? Getting into a trade war that results in those markets shutting us down will certainly have consequences at home.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-17-2016, 11:13 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnMac42 View Post
Working on sims in 1985 teach ya that?

Lets leave the operating to real, ya know...operators...
So you think that soldiers should decide what countries to invade? Because ya know... soldiers are the operators of the sims. Or are you just throwing out really stupid stuff because you are confused about what you are saying? I'm going with the latter.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-17-2016, 12:25 PM Reply   
My common denominator statement was about standard of living, lifestyle and culture. Free trade with a country that has no environmental protection and near slave labor is an unfair playing field. We treat labor well in America. Seen how labor is treated in China? Seen how India can't build roads, buildings and provide utilities? The capable countries in the world need to regulate the influx of people from toxic countries & cultures. We don't beat our women lightly. We don't kill gays. We are incompatible with Shariai Law. We believe in religious freedom not theocracies. We were "great" and we to try to at least stay "good". "Life Liberty and the American Way" needs to not be trashed by the "kumbaya" fantasy.
Old     (doublemwa)      Join Date: May 2016       08-17-2016, 1:10 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddad View Post
IMO, many of these things can be improved or repaired in 4 to 8 years...

1) reduce impact of lobbyists -- we have a government for the lobbyists by the lobbyists.
2) fixing illegal immigration -- enforce existing laws, stop illegal influx but don't round up.
3) tackling Islamic terrorism -- Islam has a problem that Muslims must fix. Non-Muslims cannot fix this. War can disturb it but never fix it.
4) erasing nation building -- the Iraq war was the biggest blunder in USA history. Staying in Afghanistan hoping to "change" them was also a wasted effort.
5) undoing bad trade deals -- trade with countries that have cheap labor exports jobs for cheaper products. We have been doing this for 20 years and it is now massively impacting employment in the USA. China protects their workforce while we are just stupid. China and Mexico will gladly take our jobs while hardly buying our products. Mexico has no wallet. China protects their wallet.
6) rethinking relationships with crap countries -- Saudi Arabia for example is an awful place. Many Arab countries are equally bad.
7) undoing undesirable globalism -- the USA does not want a common denominator lifestyle. Many countries in Europe are ruining themselves. America-First.
1 - 4 I couldn't agree more. You hit the nail on the head. I'm not sure about 5-7. Globalization is happing rather you like or not. Any president who tries to stop it is only going to screw us all. Like getting off the train at the wrong station. Shipping cost are at an time low and the ability to communicate abroad are two things you're just not going to be able to undo with out serious implications locally. For instance, if the price of goods bought from slave labor providers sky rockets because of tariffs, what do you think local producers are going to do their prices? They're going to jack their prices up because the market cap of the same goods has increased. If you think i'm off base name an electronic/cell phone that was made in the USA. Not assembled, made.

Those slave labor jobs, they're not coming back. We're going to continue to parce and piece out the components of cars and other goods and then assemble them here. Those end-to-end manufacturing jobs, they're gone for good. But our GDP is on the rise so our best bet is to remain innovative and continue to make great things and let other people put them together. We're still home the more fortune 500 companies than any other country.

Apple, Microsoft, Hilton, Marriott, General Motors, Chevron, Uber, Boeing, Dell, Dow, 3M all global players that funnel money from abroad back into the US.
Old    deltahoosier            08-17-2016, 1:37 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublemwa View Post
1 - 4 I couldn't agree more. You hit the nail on the head. I'm not sure about 5-7. Globalization is happing rather you like or not. Any president who tries to stop it is only going to screw us all. Like getting off the train at the wrong station. Shipping cost are at an time low and the ability to communicate abroad are two things you're just not going to be able to undo with out serious implications locally. For instance, if the price of goods bought from slave labor providers sky rockets because of tariffs, what do you think local producers are going to do their prices? They're going to jack their prices up because the market cap of the same goods has increased. If you think i'm off base name an electronic/cell phone that was made in the USA. Not assembled, made.

Those slave labor jobs, they're not coming back. We're going to continue to parce and piece out the components of cars and other goods and then assemble them here. Those end-to-end manufacturing jobs, they're gone for good. But our GDP is on the rise so our best bet is to remain innovative and continue to make great things and let other people put them together. We're still home the more fortune 500 companies than any other country.

Apple, Microsoft, Hilton, Marriott, General Motors, Chevron, Uber, Boeing, Dell, Dow, 3M all global players that funnel money from abroad back into the US.

Then you have what you have now. You have a ever growing wage disparity. We are moving to service based economies. Those that work at those few big market employers do well and the rest not so much. The stock market is not a indication of the health of the American worker. Those companies are funneling money back, but who is benefiting? We can only survive on so many Startbucks being open. Eventually someone has to actually have money to spend there.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       08-17-2016, 1:54 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddad View Post
My common denominator statement was about standard of living, lifestyle and culture. Free trade with a country that has no environmental protection and near slave labor is an unfair playing field. We treat labor well in America. Seen how labor is treated in China? Seen how India can't build roads, buildings and provide utilities? The capable countries in the world need to regulate the influx of people from toxic countries & cultures. We don't beat our women lightly. We don't kill gays. We are incompatible with Shariai Law. We believe in religious freedom not theocracies. We were "great" and we to try to at least stay "good". "Life Liberty and the American Way" needs to not be trashed by the "kumbaya" fantasy.
The only sharia law I've ever heard of anyone imposing in the USA is forced christian stuff (prayer in school, "in god we trust" etc etc).

When were we great diamonddad and when precisely did our greatness end?

Cuz I guarantee you whatever date you pick that there was some b.s. happening then that doesn't happen now (marriage equality, womens rights, etc.).
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-17-2016, 2:58 PM Reply   
I just went to India on business. Every hotel or big business searches your bags like an airport when you enter. It's a way of life because of their Islamic neighbors. I am sure you are looking forward to this reality in the USA.

Greatness is not black/white. It is shades of gray. We suck in many categories now. And, we are headed south fast. Growing underclass. Unemployment. Under-employment. Islamic Terrorism. And, we live on a credit card with $19T and rolling.
Old     (doublemwa)      Join Date: May 2016       08-17-2016, 6:36 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
Then you have what you have now. You have a ever growing wage disparity. We are moving to service based economies. Those that work at those few big market employers do well and the rest not so much. The stock market is not a indication of the health of the American worker. Those companies are funneling money back, but who is benefiting? We can only survive on so many Startbucks being open. Eventually someone has to actually have money to spend there.
You're right, 100% - Having seen the industrial areas of China & Korea the effects of server class/distribution of wealth is pretty scary. The employees of the Foxconns of the world are barely even treated as human!

There has to be a solution, but I don't think it's bringing those jobs back.
Old     (dyost)      Join Date: Jan 2007       08-17-2016, 7:38 PM Reply   
I would like to add to diamond's list. I think 5 tweaks would fix almost everything.

1) Term limits for congress/senate, 6 years max, 1 term for senators, 3 for congressmen - eliminates special interest influence and lifetime politicians. Serve your country through your six year term and move back into the private sector. Our representative government wasn't initially set up to be a career. Many elected officials have NEVER spent ANY time working in the private sector or for themselves and have never had any consequences to how they spend money.

2) No bill can be more than 1000 words - would eliminate complication and the need for staffers, aides, lawyers and lobbyists to assist in drafting legislation. Also would eliminate ear-marks and tacking crap onto proposed bills that have nothing to do with the actual bill under consideration. No more 2000 page bills that "we have to pass it to see what's in there"

3) Employers are no longer forced to withhold taxes on behalf of the government. If everyone had to write a monthly check to the government for their taxes, they would think about where all that money is going, and all the things they could be doing with it. It would force people to get involved with the issues and educate themselves before voting. A good majority have no idea how much of their money goes to taxes, only that they get "X" take-home every two weeks. This is worse in today's era with direct deposit and electronic paystubs, I'm sure many people don't even look, at my employer it's actually pretty hard to log-in online and get to it, I'm sure many of our production associates don't know how or don't routinely do it.

4) Voters must pay into the system in order to vote. I'm sorry but if you are receiving government benefits (and I mean ANY government assistance - not just welfare/foodstamps, but also farm subsidies, business subsidies, tax credits, etc...) and are not paying in, you shouldn't have any say on where everyone else's dollars get spent. I know there are extenuating circumstances... job loss, business loss, can't work due to health conditions, etc... that can lead to one not paying taxes, so I guess you'd have to put some kind of time limit on it. Say 3 years.... If you're receiving payments/benefits/subsidies for 3 years and have not paid ANY taxes in, you should not be able to vote until you are contributing again. I think that is completely fair and prevents voters from voting themselves benefits for too long, and politicians pandering to keep themselves elected (also fixed by point #1).

5) States Rights - The Federal Government should provide for national defense and national infrastructure - NOTHING ELSE. Send everything else to the states. This would solve so many social issues if people would just vote with their feet/dollars instead of pushing for a national agenda. We are too big a country, too many people, and too philosophically diverse to have everyone on the same page. Let the states make their own laws and the citizens decide where they want to live. Want legal pot, live in CO, want gay marriage, live in VT, want to have as many guns as you want, live in TX. Don't like those things, don't live/work/vacation in those states.

I really believe these adjustments would bring some major change in behavior both in our lawmakers and our citizens. I think regardless of which side of the issues you are on, it is hard to argue that implementing these five points would not improve many of the current situations we face as a nation.
Old     (ifishok)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-17-2016, 9:30 PM Reply   
Right on with the States Rights, agree 100%
Old     (BurnMac42)      Join Date: May 2015       08-18-2016, 3:59 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dyost View Post
I would like to add to diamond's list. I think 5 tweaks would fix almost everything.

1) Term limits for congress/senate, 6 years max, 1 term for senators, 3 for congressmen - eliminates special interest influence and lifetime politicians. Serve your country through your six year term and move back into the private sector. Our representative government wasn't initially set up to be a career. Many elected officials have NEVER spent ANY time working in the private sector or for themselves and have never had any consequences to how they spend money.

2) No bill can be more than 1000 words - would eliminate complication and the need for staffers, aides, lawyers and lobbyists to assist in drafting legislation. Also would eliminate ear-marks and tacking crap onto proposed bills that have nothing to do with the actual bill under consideration. No more 2000 page bills that "we have to pass it to see what's in there"

3) Employers are no longer forced to withhold taxes on behalf of the government. If everyone had to write a monthly check to the government for their taxes, they would think about where all that money is going, and all the things they could be doing with it. It would force people to get involved with the issues and educate themselves before voting. A good majority have no idea how much of their money goes to taxes, only that they get "X" take-home every two weeks. This is worse in today's era with direct deposit and electronic paystubs, I'm sure many people don't even look, at my employer it's actually pretty hard to log-in online and get to it, I'm sure many of our production associates don't know how or don't routinely do it.

4) Voters must pay into the system in order to vote. I'm sorry but if you are receiving government benefits (and I mean ANY government assistance - not just welfare/foodstamps, but also farm subsidies, business subsidies, tax credits, etc...) and are not paying in, you shouldn't have any say on where everyone else's dollars get spent. I know there are extenuating circumstances... job loss, business loss, can't work due to health conditions, etc... that can lead to one not paying taxes, so I guess you'd have to put some kind of time limit on it. Say 3 years.... If you're receiving payments/benefits/subsidies for 3 years and have not paid ANY taxes in, you should not be able to vote until you are contributing again. I think that is completely fair and prevents voters from voting themselves benefits for too long, and politicians pandering to keep themselves elected (also fixed by point #1).

5) States Rights - The Federal Government should provide for national defense and national infrastructure - NOTHING ELSE. Send everything else to the states. This would solve so many social issues if people would just vote with their feet/dollars instead of pushing for a national agenda. We are too big a country, too many people, and too philosophically diverse to have everyone on the same page. Let the states make their own laws and the citizens decide where they want to live. Want legal pot, live in CO, want gay marriage, live in VT, want to have as many guns as you want, live in TX. Don't like those things, don't live/work/vacation in those states.

I really believe these adjustments would bring some major change in behavior both in our lawmakers and our citizens. I think regardless of which side of the issues you are on, it is hard to argue that implementing these five points would not improve many of the current situations we face as a nation.
1. Would be awesome but good luck. Congress will never strip itself of it's own power...

2. I agree with shortening the bills and removing pork fat however 1000 words is a bit short....there are genuinely complex laws that would need to be detailed enough to uphold in a court of law...

3. I think in theory that is a good idea however the IRS is already a behemoth of an organization...can you imagine how much larger it would have to be to enforce/collect from our current society? When society as a hole is more concerned with the next Iphone7 than they are putting together a workable budget and sticking to it I think it would create an even bigger more expensive problem than what we have in place.....

4. Good luck dude...when it's considered racist to even request a photo ID to vote...yeah...

5. Agree
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       08-18-2016, 5:59 AM Reply   
1. For those of you who already don't like lobbyists, who you think runs the government when you impose term limits? The only people who stick around to "help" the newly-elected-and-soon-to-be-gone congressmen are the lobbyists. They become the only institutional knowledge. I don't know about you guys, but I don't pick my docs or plumbers based on who has the least experience. BTW, we have term limits in Nevada, and that's exactly what's happened -- the lobbyists most certainly dictate the agenda.

2. Limit bills to 1000 words? LOL should we pass a law to shorten war and peace too? What about the constitution.... also too hard to read at 4400 words? That suggestion feels a lot like laziness to me. Cutting the constitution off at 1000 words would get rid of those pesky second (executive) and third (judicial) branches of government tho. Along with those loathsome amendments.

3. If we depend on people to cut checks, tax evasion goes up by 10000%

4. Does ANYONE pay taxes without getting deductions and credits? Sales tax? Property tax (even if renting your landlord is cooking that number into rent)?

5. Right now, nobody is imposing legal pot on states that don't want it. That's actually a great example of states rights. Same could be said for higher taxes and well funded schools or lower taxes and poorly funded schools. Your other examples, marriage equality and guns, are both constitutional issues. Your plan only works if you rip up the constitution (or maybe just everything after the first 1,000 words. I mean it's already too long, right? LOL).
Old    deltahoosier            08-18-2016, 11:36 AM Reply   
I propose the Barney Fife Amendment. Like Barney the sheriff deputy who only had one bullet, Congress should only get one law a year. Or put them on a pitch count. Make them think long and hard on what they want to pass.

Kidding aside I hear a constant theme over and over from both sides of the isle (and it is not just in this forum). That theme is government screws things up. So my question is why does anyone want to vote for people who want more government? Especially centralized government?
Old     (DenverRider)      Join Date: Feb 2013       08-18-2016, 11:40 AM Reply   
People much richer than anyone here would love it if the poor could no longer vote. It wouldn't take long for them to make sure than even more people weren't allowed to vote for various reasons. Why not extend the inability to vote for middle class people with a 60K income but also 4 kids, a 500K mortgage, and a dependent wife? That family probably doesn't pay any income taxes. Should we exclude them from the voting ranks as well? How long after that before the "kings" of industry find a way to take away your right to vote as well so that they can become actual kings. That's a scary path you're going down.
Old    deltahoosier            08-18-2016, 11:56 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverRider View Post
People much richer than anyone here would love it if the poor could no longer vote. It wouldn't take long for them to make sure than even more people weren't allowed to vote for various reasons. Why not extend the inability to vote for middle class people with a 60K income but also 4 kids, a 500K mortgage, and a dependent wife? That family probably doesn't pay any income taxes. Should we exclude them from the voting ranks as well? How long after that before the "kings" of industry find a way to take away your right to vote as well so that they can become actual kings. That's a scary path you're going down.
I agree.
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