Is the American Dream Dead?

It looks like the American dream is dead in many parts of the United States
https://www.npr.org/2018/10/01/64970...-neighborhoods
This is the map, although some States appear to have no opportunity, you can zoom in on any city and every State has some good areas for opportunity.
https://www.opportunityatlas.org/

Interesting. I think it speaks volumes for opportunity that is available, contrasted with the vast amount of people who are unwilling to step up and take advantage of said opportunity.

Sad thing is I have a brother in-law that has a successful gun smithing shop. He started over with his career choices, went back to school in his late 40's and got a degree in gun smithing. Opened up a shop a few years ago and makes good money.

Just last week he had to take a job with a bigger arms company so he could have insurance and is closing down his gun store. Around here the cost of living isn't high but when you make 40 to 50K and have to pay 1,500 a month in health insurance. Thats a big chuck out of your budget every month.

That is a great tool. I am definitely going to use it in my sociology class.I currently have the students use https://censusreporter.org which is also very useful and easy to use. Both make it very clear that in 2018 we still live in a segregated society.

Originally Posted by wakemitch

That is a great tool. I am definitely going to use it in my sociology class.I currently have the students use https://censusreporter.org which is also very useful and easy to use. Both make it very clear that in 2018 we still live in a segregated society.

Wakem, interesting information, I looked up Windermere and not only do they have a very high household income, they have 67% with Bachelor's degree! Education is so important, especially today, you could Not find a high income area that does not have a higher bachelor percentage.

Speaking of education and getting a higher income, today's students expect to Never be able to retire. This is Not a right or left issue, neither party can fix it! I do Not see this trend reversing.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/12/40pe...hoo&yptr=yahoo

Interesting map and topic for discussion. I know within my family with my siblings and parents, I don't think any of us will hit the income that my father generated simply due to him getting a degree in a complex field of study that yields good pay. As far as my mother goes, I make more than her but all my sisters make less which to me can be traced straight to their personal life choices. I chose a career path that requires a difficult life style and being gone away from home a lot that yields an above average income. I chose not to go to a university so making less than my father is 100% a result of my decisions. My sisters earn less than my mother because they simply do not share the work ethic that she put forth. She has a masters in nursing and while my oldest has a bachelors in nursing she'd rather not work at all unless she absolutely has to and my other older sister has basically no college and seems to have an income that reflects that. My other sister got married two months after graduating high school and also has no college and chose to live in a tiny west Texas town with limited opportunity. It seems to me that in the case of my family, our own personal decisions have a greater affect on whether or no we achieve the "American Dream" over the economic status of the country.

"The American Dream" is directly related to personal choices. If you want it, go get it, there is money to be made in all facets of life. It doesn't matter if you are a plumber, computer tech, DR work hard and the dream will come. The problem with today's society is that they are unwilling to work. Hell we have technicians that are 20-30 clearing $80k a year if they want to work for it. It drives me nuts when people say the American Dream is dead.

Originally Posted by mark197

"The American Dream" is directly related to personal choices. If you want it, go get it, there is money to be made in all facets of life. It doesn't matter if you are a plumber, computer tech, DR work hard and the dream will come. The problem with today's society is that they are unwilling to work. Hell we have technicians that are 20-30 clearing $80k a year if they want to work for it. It drives me nuts when people say the American Dream is dead.

Agreed. What's dead is ambition. What do you expect when the public school system preaches that everyone is a victim followed by even stronger preaching in college? The first thing I wanted to do as a teenager was work for a car so I could start being independent (and chase chicks of course). Nowadays, teenagers couldn't care less about cars or independence. They'd rather take and post pictures of themselves all day long.

I should also add that there's hope. The generation that comes after millennials came of age in a recession. They're cut from a different cloth. Things didn't come to them as easy as millennials. A lot of the next generation watched their parents lose or almost their houses. Experiences like those will shape a child's world view-which affects things like ambition.

Originally Posted by markj

Agreed. What's dead is ambition. What do you expect when the public school system preaches that everyone is a victim followed by even stronger preaching in college? The first thing I wanted to do as a teenager was work for a car so I could start being independent (and chase chicks of course). Nowadays, teenagers couldn't care less about cars or independence. They'd rather take and post pictures of themselves all day long.

Did you ever go to college? I cannot recall one lecture where a professor "preached" I was a "victim".

Originally Posted by wake77

Did you ever go to college? I cannot recall one lecture where a professor "preached" I was a "victim".

I think they did say I would be victimized by a big paycheck. And possibly forced to work in climate controlled conditions.

Originally Posted by wake77

Did you ever go to college? I cannot recall one lecture where a professor "preached" I was a "victim".

When did you graduate?

Originally Posted by rdlangston13

Interesting map and topic for discussion. I know within my family with my siblings and parents, I don't think any of us will hit the income that my father generated simply due to him getting a degree in a complex field of study that yields good pay.

That is very interesting, obviously your father did not force you and your siblings to go to college, but you were able to see first hand the benefits of going. Would he have helped pay for yours or your siblings college if you went? I ended up teaching engineering from 2000-2015 at the high school level and expected my two sons to do their best in college, both graduated from the Ohio State University in Mechanical engineering and now have great jobs! We also helped pay the tuition for them to go, that, and with internships they both graduated with no debt!

agree with yall, plenty of opportunity if people are willing to work for it.

Joe, awesome you got 2 kids through college with no debt.

speaking of college, do you guys feel that a degree is not worth what it used to be? of course, some fields still require one to get in the game, but you can no longer graduate with a bull**** degree and make it. got a lot more to do with building connections with the right people and busting your ass.

I used to give a talk at local univ twice a year for a career planning course. Prof is a friend. Can't tell you how many times I handed a few golden nuggets to them and they just sat there with a dazed/bored look on their face. Gotta differentiate yourself

Daughter in college - University of Miami studying environmental engineering with an eye on environmental law - So lots of ambition - went to a public school her entire life - was never "preached" too about being a victim, not wanting to work, no ambition. She graduated high school with 21 college credits, 35th in a class of 850 had job even though was told she did not have to since she was 15 volunteered over 1000 hours in high school was on volleyball team and cheered national honor society office holder, environmental club office holder.

To suggest there is no ambition with this generation is lazy and insulting to them. The "american dream" is whatever you make it. I believe it very personal Your right she has no interest in buying a car she is a poor college student working hard to better herself for the long haul.

To suggest college is not hard work is to suggest you have never been. To be able to set a goal and achieve it 4 years later is an impressive item on any resume just as working hard right out of high school . Not all "hard work" is physical

Originally Posted by joeshmoe

That is very interesting, obviously your father did not force you and your siblings to go to college, but you were able to see first hand the benefits of going. Would he have helped pay for yours or your siblings college if you went? I ended up teaching engineering from 2000-2015 at the high school level and expected my two sons to do their best in college, both graduated from the Ohio State University in Mechanical engineering and now have great jobs! We also helped pay the tuition for them to go, that, and with internships they both graduated with no debt!

No. My dad was kind of an ass in that respect and said he paid enough child support that my mom should have enough money to pay for our college. You know, even though she needed that money to raise us. My wife’s parents pushed her and her brother to go to college and helped out some but didn’t pay for all of it. I think my wife graduated with about the same amount of student loan debt as me (she has a bachelors in psychology, biology, AND nursing). Her brother graduated from TAMU and works for some software type company as a project manager so they are both doing well. Neither of her parents went to college.

Did you guys go to the links and dig around/check stats?
We all have anecdotes and exceptions, but the tools in the links help us see the bigger picture. It is undeniable that the zip code you are raised in has a massive effect on your chances of achieving the American dream.

And it’s safe to say that children can’t choose where their raised or who their parents are, no matter how much grit or ambition the child has...

Originally Posted by wakemitch

Did you guys go to the links and dig around/check stats?

We all have anecdotes and exceptions, but the tools in the links help us see the bigger picture. It is undeniable that the zip code you are raised in has a massive effect on your chances of achieving the American dream.



And it’s safe to say that children can’t choose where their raised or who their parents are, no matter how much grit or ambition the child has...

Yeah I poked around the links. I don’t think zipper codes are holding anyone back though. It’s the mentality of the population in that zip code. They get taught by their parents how to rely on the system or that the system is against them and the will never amount to anything and all that crap. Determination and little bit of good guidance can lift people out of their zip code trap. Problem is most people have bad guidance in those zip codes.

Originally Posted by rdlangston13

No. My dad was kind of an ass in that respect and said he paid enough child support that my mom should have enough money to pay for our college. You know, even though she needed that money to raise us..

Having watched multiple co workers, friends, etc go though this & be taken to the cleaners by ex's, I side with your dad. Many dudes I know dads lived very frugally giving a vast majority of their money to ex spouses & support for the kids. When the kids were 19 it was only then they were able to actually start building their lives over & save for retirement & what not. Obviously details & situations change from person to person but you get what I'm getting at.

Without any more information, I'm siding with the Dad as well. Went through a divorce in 2001, and even though I got custody of our kids I still had to give away 3/5ths of my net worth and never received a penny in child support. That it turned out that well was an example of dodging a bullet. Divorce law is primarily designed to make lawyers rich and financially destroy families.

Originally Posted by wombat2wombat

Having watched multiple co workers, friends, etc go though this & be taken to the cleaners by ex's, I side with your dad. Many dudes I know dads lived very frugally giving a vast majority of their money to ex spouses & support for the kids. When the kids were 19 it was only then they were able to actually start building their lives over & save for retirement & what not. Obviously details & situations change from person to person but you get what I'm getting at.

Yeah are definitely women out there who take advantage of the system but that was not our situation at all. My parents divorced when I was 1 and I had two older sisters as well. From the time I was 1 until I turned 18 and he stopped paying my mother never took him to court to request more money based on his salary increasing over the years. And his salary went up a lot over the years. He got off very easy. I’m not bitter about, we have a great relationship but I just want to be clear that my mom was not the kind to abuse the system. She put herself through college as a single mom and got a associates in nursing and worked as an RN. She now has her masters in nursing. Never met a harder working lady.

Originally Posted by fly135

Without any more information, I'm siding with the Dad as well. Went through a divorce in 2001, and even though I got custody of our kids I still had to give away 3/5ths of my net worth and never received a penny in child support. That it turned out that well was an example of dodging a bullet. Divorce law is primarily designed to make lawyers rich and financially destroy families.

Yo, Broseph, Mad respect for single dads, I was one too.

The whole thing I was mentioning about zip codes is the consolidation of resources. Different schools, different opportunities, different lives.
It’s a situation I don’t know the answer too. I lived in a city that went bankrupt and went to a school that later got shutdown due to low funding, but I had the means to buy a house in a well funded school district to give my kids the best opportunity. I contributed to a poor school district getting poorer and a rich school district get richer.
Before I became a teacher I was a substitute for a couple of years for various districts in the Bay Area. The segregation (class/wealth/race/etc) in the Bay Area is very real and it effects the future generation. But again, by looking at the stats you don’t need my anecdote. Anecidites are pretty much useless when looking at societally issues.

Since public schools are publicly funded I would be a big supporter of every school say within a certain state getting the same funding per student. That would go a long way in helping solve this problem. Just seems to be nearly impossible with so many different districts each having their own tax income. Maybe leave the schools up to the state instead of the cities and if people want better for their children, send them to a private school.

gonna give a tax credit to those who send kids to private/charter schools? that's become the norm in Tx. almost as many kids in private schools as there in public. all pay same taxes.

Originally Posted by rdlangston13

if people want better for their children, send them to a private school.

You don't think that right there is what the probably actually is?

No, I think the problem is places where I live (Katy, TX) spending absurd amounts on schools and have retarded high property tax while schools in places like Willis, TX have very low property tax and thus the schools get next to no funding. Maybe we should eliminate school districts based on cities or mandate on a state level how much a school district can charge in property tax and how much that district gets per student to make a more level playing field for the public school system. I think if people want to send their kids to private schools they should have that right. The voucher program IMO seems to be more beneficial to those people in poorer areas with bad schools. It gives them a chance to get their child into a better school. The schools are so good were I live there are not a lot of parents looking to move them into private schools.

I also think that forcing public schools to compete with private ones will only improve the quality or learning based on simple competition. When there is a monopoly quality seems to suffer.

Originally Posted by rdlangston13

Since public schools are publicly funded I would be a big supporter of every school say within a certain state getting the same funding per student.

We kinda have that here in NV. Our school districts are at least county sized, some are multiple (rural) counties. You still have disparities that favor the wealthy neighborhoods because parents in wealthy areas get together (via PTA, or sports boosters, or whatever) to provide supplemental funding to their kids' schools. There are some exceptions (magnet schools in poor areas), but for the most part, even where funding per pupil is uniform, the higher SES schools are going to outperform.

There's also a cultural element of whether (and how much) education is valued by the parents. Buddy of mine is a VP at a local low SES high school. At my kids' high SES high school, parent's night (open house to meet the teachers) was literally jam friggin packed. He says when they do it at his school, just a handful of parents show up. That's anecdotal, yes.

Originally Posted by shawndoggy

There's also a cultural element of whether (and how much) education is valued by the parents. Buddy of mine is a VP at a local low SES high school. At my kids' high SES high school, parent's night (open house to meet the teachers) was literally jam friggin packed. He says when they do it at his school, just a handful of parents show up. That's anecdotal, yes.

I actually feel like this is the biggest contributing factor. If the parents don’t make it a big deal then kids won’t think it’s a big deal.

Originally Posted by rdlangston13

I also think that forcing public schools to compete with private ones will only improve the quality or learning based on simple competition. When there is a monopoly quality seems to suffer.

Problem being that poor kids can’t afford to go to out of neighborhood private schools even when tuition is free. Transportation is frequently a huge barrier too. So you get the wealthy kids fleeing the public system and taking their tax dollars with them to leave the poor kids at an even bigger disadvantage.

Yep, its as easy as moving from a red to a green area. Unfortunately, living the American dream is not about where you live, its about your life decisions and how you live. It is alive and possible but its never been an easy handout.

Originally Posted by rdlangston13

Her brother graduated from TAMU and works for some software type company as a project manager so they are both doing well. Neither of her parents went to college.

The fact that neither of your wife's parents went to college is another statistic worth looking at, the lowest percent of students who don't go to college are students whose parents didn't go to college, so, congratulations to your wife! I am all for going to college to earn more money, but, just because a couple goes to college and they get good jobs after they graduate does not guarantee success(maybe success for their kids because they live in affluent school districts) I know a couple that always had 6 figure income, each, and their house was foreclosed on! What did they do? They bought a bigger house! Some people just cannot live within their means. Me? I can live on $10 a day and I live five miles from Walt Disney World on a canal that is connected to a lake that is one mile long, life is good!

This is why the American Dream is harder than ever to achieve,
The study centers on what author Oren Cass calls a “Cost-of-Thriving Index,” which is based on the cost of housing, health care, transportation and education. It calculates the number of weeks per year it would take the average worker, earning the median weekly wage, to earn enough to cover the total value of those basic expenses.In 1985, it would take the average male worker 30 weeks to cover those costs. He was earning $443 per week and his total costs were valued at $13,227.In 2018, it would have taken the average male worker 53 weeks to cover those same basic expenses – or more than a year. Costs for the four basic necessities had risen to $54,414, while the median weekly wage rose to $1,026. So while wages had just about doubled, costs had more than quadrupled.
“The COTI shows a declining capacity of a male full-time worker to meet the major costs of a typical middle-class household,” Cass concluded.
For women, the problem was even more exacerbated. In 1985, a woman would need to work 45 weeks to cover those same expenses. By 2018, she would need to work 66 weeks.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/w...141406830.html

Live within your means, if you want to live a stable life, you live within the range you set your goals to. Thats it. millions of people live in rich areas and become squat. Millions live in poor areas and move on to become exceptionally rich. There is no right or wrong. There are many who just don't want to achieve. We need them too!

Stop trying to judge what people want, you don't know what they want. Telling people what they need is also the problem. You have to want it for yourself. The American dream is based on your dream. There was time when your family owned 1 car, 1 tv, 1 house, 1 phone. Now its blanketed. Everyone has everything, but no one wants to put the effort into getting it. We all had side jobs, cut grass, washed cars etc. Learning work ethic is lost for many. Entitlement has ruined the masses. The moral compass is gone. "smoke up Jonny"

My parents would have had a foot up my @ss if we would have acted like many. Respect has fallen. Younger people treat older people with disregard. Its sad. We can look at all the statics in the world. but without looking at the person, you don't know why it is the way it is. KFC is hiring at 15 + an hour, but no one will work the job. Why? I drive by the sign every day, they just cant get people to take the job. Its available. 2 non educated adults can make 60k plus and have full benefits, 401k plan etc. They don't want it. They offer free management programs and college reimbursement for many of the non educated service jobs, but no one wants them. How do you fix the problem? Give more entitlements. Tell them its not your fault. My father was a steal worker, no silver spoon. Worked a few years, strikes a few, work odd jobs. All us kids, had side jobs, cut grass, etc. Those days are over.

Originally Posted by joeshmoe

This is why the American Dream is harder than ever to achieve,
The study centers on what author Oren Cass calls a “Cost-of-Thriving Index,” which is based on the cost of housing, health care, transportation and education. It calculates the number of weeks per year it would take the average worker, earning the median weekly wage, to earn enough to cover the total value of those basic expenses.In 1985, it would take the average male worker 30 weeks to cover those costs. He was earning $443 per week and his total costs were valued at $13,227.In 2018, it would have taken the average male worker 53 weeks to cover those same basic expenses – or more than a year. Costs for the four basic necessities had risen to $54,414, while the median weekly wage rose to $1,026. So while wages had just about doubled, costs had more than quadrupled.
“The COTI shows a declining capacity of a male full-time worker to meet the major costs of a typical middle-class household,” Cass concluded.
For women, the problem was even more exacerbated. In 1985, a woman would need to work 45 weeks to cover those same expenses. By 2018, she would need to work 66 weeks.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/w...141406830.html

Yep. Regulation hurts the working person. Could not even sell a $700 car due to a sensor being bad. Someone could have used a cheap car that ran well. California is a Masters Class on how to continue to pile in regulations so deep that you need to become a lawyer to even participate in the economy even from the consumer standpoint. Tons of working poor and homeless.

Originally Posted by dougr

Live within your means, if you want to live a stable life, you live within the range you set your goals to. Thats it. millions of people live in rich areas and become squat. Millions live in poor areas and move on to become exceptionally rich. There is no right or wrong. There are many who just don't want to achieve. We need them too!

Stop trying to judge what people want, you don't know what they want. Telling people what they need is also the problem. You have to want it for yourself. The American dream is based on your dream. There was time when your family owned 1 car, 1 tv, 1 house, 1 phone. Now its blanketed. Everyone has everything, but no one wants to put the effort into getting it. We all had side jobs, cut grass, washed cars etc. Learning work ethic is lost for many. Entitlement has ruined the masses. The moral compass is gone. "smoke up Jonny"

My parents would have had a foot up my @ss if we would have acted like many. Respect has fallen. Younger people treat older people with disregard. Its sad. We can look at all the statics in the world. but without looking at the person, you don't know why it is the way it is. KFC is hiring at 15 + an hour, but no one will work the job. Why? I drive by the sign every day, they just cant get people to take the job. Its available. 2 non educated adults can make 60k plus and have full benefits, 401k plan etc. They don't want it. They offer free management programs and college reimbursement for many of the non educated service jobs, but no one wants them. How do you fix the problem? Give more entitlements. Tell them its not your fault. My father was a steal worker, no silver spoon. Worked a few years, strikes a few, work odd jobs. All us kids, had side jobs, cut grass, etc. Those days are over.

Most kids these day smoke weed and play Xbox.

Originally Posted by dougr

All us kids, had side jobs, cut grass, etc. Those days are over.

Definitely felt this way to me for my kids and their friends. My kids weren't lazy teens at all, nor were their friends. But between sports, extracurriculars, and studying, they didn't have the time that I did as a teen. I did work and I did get a lot of my formative life lessons at those minimum wage jobs. My kids didn't work, but got a lot of their formative life lessons committing to 3 season sports, leadership classes, etc. I really have no doubt that my kids will be successful in life even though they didn't have the string of crappy jobs I had.

Times have also changed... many of the jobs that were available to kids aren't even around now... papers are delivered by adults with huge routes. Landscapers have the lawn business on lock. Fast food restaurants seem to have adult employees around me. The only visible kid job that I see regularly is grocery bagger, and there definitely aren't enough of those jobs for the number of kids.

Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier

Most kids these day smoke weed and play Xbox.

I'm not saying those kids don't exist, but there are plenty of kids putting in a crap ton of work on the daily too. My kids did, and still do work real hard.

Originally Posted by shawndoggy

Definitely felt this way to me for my kids and their friends. My kids weren't lazy teens at all, nor were their friends. But between sports, extracurriculars, and studying, they didn't have the time that I did as a teen. I did work and I did get a lot of my formative life lessons at those minimum wage jobs. My kids didn't work, but got a lot of their formative life lessons committing to 3 season sports, leadership classes, etc. I really have no doubt that my kids will be successful in life even though they didn't have the string of crappy jobs I had.

Times have also changed... many of the jobs that were available to kids aren't even around now... papers are delivered by adults with huge routes. Landscapers have the lawn business on lock. Fast food restaurants seem to have adult employees around me. The only visible kid job that I see regularly is grocery bagger, and there definitely aren't enough of those jobs for the number of kids.

Grocery baggers in our area are union jobs.

The issue is that all these low level jobs are being pushed to be lifer jobs now. They want $15 plus an hour for them and then they are being taken by illegals and legal immigrants. Those people in turn compete and and wage compress your normal middle class workers.