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Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       08-01-2016, 3:39 PM Reply   
Alright guys, I’ve been trying to land my back roll for a solid half year now (first invert). I’ve probably had 100+ falls from it (luckily many were at slow speed at the beginning). The guys over at Learnwake have been helping me through it (they are GREAT!) and I’ve finally landed my first one. I would like to get a fresh set of eyes on my back roll’s to see if someone see’s something that’s holding me back.

My main issue is that I under rotate by like 20 degrees. I land on my back edge. Believe it or not but I am holding on as hard as I can when the handle pop’s out. So much so that I’ve ripped a couple callus’s already and last time out I had to wear thin gloves because I got a ½”x1/2” rip already.

Anyways, as I said I have tried a ton of these and they have been getting better and better but I’m still missing that last 20 degrees. This is what I’ve done so far:

1. Delay the ‘release’ till I’m at the actual wake (don’t let off early)
2. Slow the boat down from my normal riding speed. I was shooting past the wake and the impact of the landing was pretty harsh. I slowed it down 1mph and that brought me to the wake. (normally ride 21.4 at 65ft)
3. Try to be more cognizant of the handle bar location. I tried to make sure the handle bar stayed closer to my body instead of letting it (or my hips) out.
4. Cut harder and harder at the wake. Make it as progressive as I could.
5. Straighten my legs off the wake
6. Focus on bending my legs deep on landing

https://youtu.be/pJRqQn6Veyw

Here’s a video of my last 10 tries from the weekend. I cut out all the riff raff to save you time. The last one is my landing. The landing was still very sloppy but I’ll take it. The main difference compared to the 2 before it was I made sure to push off as hard as I can and remember my legs locking completely out coming off the wake. I think it gave me that extra 5% to actually barely land it. It still looks like I’m working SO hard for it though. My cut is deep and longer than expected. I really don’t like that because the LearnWake guys stress how little time you actually have to cut for the trick to work (all technique). However I tried 2 by cutting out less and starting the cut at the wash but I ended up doing ¾ of a flip both times, painful. So I feel like I’m still missing something crucial.

These 10 are all in order and you can see the last few I was getting closer and closer. I rode away for a few feet on a few of them before the forces were too overwhelming and the handle ripped out. The only reason I included 10 attempts is if you see something consistently wrong to help me get the extra 10% rotation I need to land comfortably. Higher boat speed just shoots be further into the flats and no more actual rotation. I definitely shoot out just as far or even further than my regular jumps, so the cut is good. Like I said, I had to slow it down 1mph just to stop overshooting the wake. The pop is good on most of them and I think on most of them I have good leg extension.

Any suggestions?
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-01-2016, 5:33 PM Reply   
I do a very hybrid backroll, half Mexican half progressive if you will. That being said...

As you leave the wake throw your head down so that your body will follow. As the body follows you'll rotate more around your access and you'll come right down to the bolts.

Also push the handle down a bit as you land.

Should look like this:

https://www.instagram.com/p/7iXM7bqDAy/


See how my head goes down as my board flies up and out? That's what keeps me on axis. I don't think you're under rotating, I think it's a matter of axis of rotation. If I over do it on my edge I butt check them like you do.
Old     (razorjaw)      Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Australia       08-01-2016, 5:36 PM Reply   
YEEW! So close!
You've got a nice progressive edge happening, like you said, you're under rotating slightly. A couple of suggestions to get them more consistent:

Go wider and come in at what feels like the same speed. You will actually be moving faster but it shouldn't create more pressure on the line. You'll hopefully get more height/air time.

You are giving the wake a little stomp to get height, but this is making you come off edge a little and early. I'd say take it a little later and accelerate up the wake harder. Remove the stomp by coming in with your legs a little straighter.

You will get these super soon! Look forwards to seeing a vid of you landing them consistently.
Old     (dezul)      Join Date: Jul 2012       08-01-2016, 6:23 PM Reply   
Also, watch your video. 9 and 10 are not the same as the rest. You go out wider on them.
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       08-01-2016, 7:30 PM Reply   
Under rotating? The problem is he's landing on his but with the board out in front of him.
Old     (razorjaw)      Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Australia       08-01-2016, 8:20 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
Under rotating? The problem is he's landing on his but with the board out in front of him.
In my experience, many beginners do that as they haven't made the rotation and are trying to get down without burying the nose of the board. 2 options - Get the rotation right or... take it to revert .
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-02-2016, 3:31 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
Under rotating? The problem is he's landing on his but with the board out in front of him.
I agree- not under rotating at all, just a bad axis of rotation
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004 Location: Tyler       08-02-2016, 7:43 AM Reply   
keep the handle closer to your body. 9 and 10 you started out with it shoulder high almost
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-02-2016, 7:50 AM Reply   
What worked for me was a bigger wake. Can you add any weight to the boat?
Old     (ChaseR720)      Join Date: Jul 2015       08-02-2016, 8:16 AM Reply   
Might be wrong here but it looks like you're leaning back a little too much on your edge to the wake (like you would doing a raley). Looks like that edge is throwing your axis off because you're landing at the same angle. Try to stay more over top of the board on takeoff.
Old     (snork)      Join Date: Jun 2007       08-02-2016, 9:13 AM Reply   
you got this, give the handle a tug with your left hand when you're 3/4 the way around while spotting your landing, that'll speed up the rotation just enough to get you over the board and not back on your heels
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       08-02-2016, 10:08 AM Reply   
Thank you all for the great reponse! I'm really anxious to get this thing on lock and give my body a rest! haha

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
I do a very hybrid backroll, half Mexican half progressive if you will. That being said...

As you leave the wake throw your head down so that your body will follow. As the body follows you'll rotate more around your access and you'll come right down to the bolts.

Also push the handle down a bit as you land.

Should look like this:

https://www.instagram.com/p/7iXM7bqDAy/


See how my head goes down as my board flies up and out? That's what keeps me on axis. I don't think you're under rotating, I think it's a matter of axis of rotation. If I over do it on my edge I butt check them like you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
Under rotating? The problem is he's landing on his but with the board out in front of him.
Simple, it looks like your getting that spin faster because your legs are bent a little more and your body is more buckled at the waist. I agree that this will spin me faster but I really like the more laid out look so I don't want to introduce that variable in there and have a hard time taking it out later.

This is what I'm looking for here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgNhCwKLf48

Also from my understanding, The progressive back roll is half mexican backroll half raley of sorts. Since the progressive back roll has the raley motion in it, landing on your back edge is under rotating (atleast the raley part). That's what I was told my LearnWake and it does make sense when you look at the motion. My tries with a bad cut end up with me on my back even further.

Where I'm at now is already like try 100+ so you guys haven't seen the rest of me wiping out. I used to throw my head more and I was told not to 'huck' the flip and that it's all in the line tension. Your saying that having the head roll in there will correct my axis of rotation?

I'm definitely not dismissing what you are saying, but rather I'm not 100% sure how to apply it to my situation. I can add the head roll, but I had this same issue when I did do that so I'm not sure it will do much.

Can you expand on when I should push the handle down. Right before I land or right when I touch water?


Quote:
Originally Posted by razorjaw View Post
YEEW! So close!
You've got a nice progressive edge happening, like you said, you're under rotating slightly. A couple of suggestions to get them more consistent:

Go wider and come in at what feels like the same speed. You will actually be moving faster but it shouldn't create more pressure on the line. You'll hopefully get more height/air time.

You are giving the wake a little stomp to get height, but this is making you come off edge a little and early. I'd say take it a little later and accelerate up the wake harder. Remove the stomp by coming in with your legs a little straighter.

You will get these super soon! Look forwards to seeing a vid of you landing them consistently.

I can try going wider. Usually the advice I've been getting is to go LESS WIDE and focus on the edge technique though! My other issue with going wider is I already had to slow the boat down 1mph just to land in the wake VS a little in the flats. I'm worried going wider will just compound this issue because wouldn't it would be almost the same thing as if I just sped the boat up to my normal riding speed?

I will definitely try going wider though, I love going wider! I've been forcing myself for a little while now to not go as wide, to better learn the progressive edge.


Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
keep the handle closer to your body. 9 and 10 you started out with it shoulder high almost
I specifically try to be mindful of keeping the handle closer during rotation. Maybe I'm not doing it enough. Any tips on incorporatng this better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
What worked for me was a bigger wake. Can you add any weight to the boat?
I can but I would rather not try to fix the problem with brute force (adding much more air). I'm already taking a beating from all these falls, so I don't want to add insult to injury!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaseR720 View Post
Might be wrong here but it looks like you're leaning back a little too much on your edge to the wake (like you would doing a raley). Looks like that edge is throwing your axis off because you're landing at the same angle. Try to stay more over top of the board on takeoff.
Since the progressive back roll is a load & release, wouldn't I have to be hard on the edge and then release it at the wake. Otherwise I would just be 'throwing' the trick? Maybe your thinking of the Mexican Back Roll? Maybe I'm just confused on what you mean?

Thanks again for all the advice guys. I'm not trying to be difficult with my replies, just trying to clarify what you guys mean so that I can incorporate it into my riding.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-02-2016, 10:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
I can but I would rather not try to fix the problem with brute force (adding much more air). I'm already taking a beating from all these falls, so I don't want to add insult to injury!
I probably did what you did 200 times behind my unweighted Nautique and was ready to go get a lesson. Then a couple guys in an older weighed 2001 asked me if I would like to try behind their boat and I landed 3 in a row.
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       08-02-2016, 11:00 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by snork View Post
you got this, give the handle a tug with your left hand when you're 3/4 the way around while spotting your landing, that'll speed up the rotation just enough to get you over the board and not back on your heels
I've tried a small tug before and it just threw me off balance and made for some bad falls. If I remember correctly, it would pull me into revert. I probably did it wrong.

Your saying to pull on my left hand only, while both hands are still on the handle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
I probably did what you did 200 times behind my unweighted Nautique and was ready to go get a lesson. Then a couple guys in an older weighed 2001 asked me if I would like to try behind their boat and I landed 3 in a row.
Your making me drool at the thought of easier landings! Here's where I'm currently at:

My boat already is weighted. I'm at 65ft and I can clear the wake at as slow as 17-18mph with a strong enough cut and leg push. I slowed my 2007 23lsv to about 20.4 on GPS (usually ride at 21.4). Stock ballasts full (1350lb), both people on the starboard side (driver + extra), wedge down and probably around 200lb extra in the port locker. Makes for a clean wake that I can slow down to even 17mph without washing it out if I want to practice something. I think it's probably good enough because I've had a few good riders on my boat and they never had problems doing tantrums/rolls/scarecrows/540/raley/etc...

This last Sunday I did try to sack it out for the first time. I added an extra 450 in the front, and 500ish in each locker. So thats a total of 3000ish Lb. This was after everyone was exhausted and the lake was already super choppy, but I just wanted to try it out. It was pretty awesome. I could do a very weak jump (weak cut or weak leg push) and still do a w2w at my normal speed of 21.4 lol You definitely are tempting me to load it out a bit more for the back roll, but I'm really trying to resist the worse falls. That's why I am still riding at a relatively slow speed instead of 22+.

Last edited by timelinex; 08-02-2016 at 11:04 AM.
Old     (razorjaw)      Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Australia       08-02-2016, 3:03 PM Reply   
Have you tried one wake rolls and inside out? Fun to learn and a great way to get the trick. You'll amaze yourself when you land a one wake roll with a 1 meter cut!
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       08-02-2016, 4:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by razorjaw View Post
Have you tried one wake rolls and inside out? Fun to learn and a great way to get the trick. You'll amaze yourself when you land a one wake roll with a 1 meter cut!
Yes, thats how I started and the same exact thing happens. I fall back and the handle pops out. I haven't done it in a while though.

I started doing it out the side of the boat with no wake at all. Just with a load and release. I would actually come pretty dang close to landing it with no wake at all (90% of the rotation), so I thought it was gonna be easy as hell once I add the wake. Boy was I wrong

I looked at my video frame by frame and it's actually interesting to see that I'm not landing super back edge heavy. What looks like is happening is my board touches water relatively flat with just a minor back lean and the line has no slack, then there is major slack in the line out of nowhere in the next frame and that's when I go fall on the back edge really heavy and then the handle pops. Hmmmmm
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-02-2016, 6:39 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
Simple, it looks like your getting that spin faster because your legs are bent a little more and your body is more buckled at the waist. I agree that this will spin me faster but I really like the more laid out look so I don't want to introduce that variable in there and have a hard time taking it out later.

This is what I'm looking for here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgNhCwKLf48

Also from my understanding, The progressive back roll is half mexican backroll half raley of sorts. Since the progressive back roll has the raley motion in it, landing on your back edge is under rotating (atleast the raley part). That's what I was told my LearnWake and it does make sense when you look at the motion. My tries with a bad cut end up with me on my back even further.

Where I'm at now is already like try 100+ so you guys haven't seen the rest of me wiping out. I used to throw my head more and I was told not to 'huck' the flip and that it's all in the line tension. Your saying that having the head roll in there will correct my axis of rotation?

I'm definitely not dismissing what you are saying, but rather I'm not 100% sure how to apply it to my situation. I can add the head roll, but I had this same issue when I did do that so I'm not sure it will do much.

Can you expand on when I should push the handle down. Right before I land or right when I touch
The rotation speed is a factor of wake size. I do them very laid out on a big wake. But you should be worried about landing the trick first...

A lot of the flip is in the line tension, but you are edging so hard and far out from the boat that your axis is off

Have you tried any Mexican back rolls? They are a distinctly different flip rotation in terms of technique, I learned them Mexican to start, then shifted to the more hybrid roll. The head tucking towards the waist changes the axis of rotation which you see in my video, I open up away from the boat and as my body follows my head the 2nd half of the rotation flows end over end into a more Mexican roll type of finish. Progressive back roll=up and out, Mexican back roll=Down and around

The pushing the handle down is just to get it at waist level to stabilize your landing
Old     (mike_schwenne)      Join Date: Nov 2002       08-03-2016, 1:57 PM Reply   
Honestly your fundamentals on the trick are really good. There are different variables happening in almost all the unsuccessful attempts. Primarily your edge and weight distribution when hitting the wake.
In my experience even the right advice can sometimes lead you farther away. Here's what I'd do if you were in my boat.
I'd pull you in 10'- slow the boat down 2 mph.
Chances are you should be 75% consistent by the end of first set. You will correct most issues with the more you land(not the case if your rotation was garbage)
Here's the three areas to play around with once you land a couple more at shorter line. Once you're 10 for 10, let your line back out 2.5' at a time, speed up .5 mph every 2.5' of rope length.

1) don't cut out as far: just enough where you feel comfortable like you're not going to have to rush your cut.
2) tone your whole cut down 10-30%. While the cut does most of the flip for you, too much cut means too much tension. Backing off you cut a little mean it will be easier to control your handle. Controlling the handle will speed up your flip. If this doesn't make sense, try it out on tramp and see how much the handle can work for you.
3) consider the tail as another option to play with. You don't have to do this to land roll. Your best attempts happened when you edged all the way off the wake on your tail, imagine like a wheelie. Too much front foot can slow, stall, or tweak your rotation. The more you ride off your tall, the easier edge you can get away with.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-03-2016, 2:12 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
You definitely are tempting me to load it out a bit more for the back roll, but I'm really trying to resist the worse falls. That's why I am still riding at a relatively slow speed instead of 22+.
Do it! And maybe up the speed a hair. Anything under 21 is probably too slow.
Old     (razorjaw)      Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Australia       08-03-2016, 3:22 PM Reply   
Yep. Listen to Mike!!
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       08-05-2016, 10:16 AM Reply   
Thank you all for the great responses!

Looks like there is no 'silver bullet' on this one. I will try to incorporate what I can and play around with it this weekend.
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       08-20-2016, 11:07 AM Reply   
Well guys, I think I'm starting to get it. I tried the first one halfway into my set. I didn't change any 1 thing specifically but I tried to keep everything we discussed on here in mind.I kept my speed where I normally ride (21.4mph) but reduced the cut, I tried keeping the handle close, I tried being more evenly weighted on the cut, and I tried to sit less. Whether all these things happened or not, I don't know. But my very first attempt was the best one I've had so far. I landed with absolutely no harshness and the landing felt as easy as a lazy wake to wake jump. I still squatted on the landing just out of habit of bracing for impact haha but it just never came. The next 2 I think my cuts weren't great and the last 1 I landed but I over spun a little and landed tail happy. It felt amazing not having to battle the handle getting ripped out of my hands though. I was already super tired and I was happy leaving it at 2/4. Looking at the video, it looks like I just have to start getting more consistent with my cuts and that will have me landing them.

I've been practicing my reentry ollies and the approach of the tantrum( slow cut in, let go of back hand, square up, and then ollie) the last 2 times out so on my 2nd set of the day I tried tantrums for the very first time. It felt terrifying flying into the wake backwards but I was actually pleasantly surprised! On my last one I actually landed on the board just extremely tail heavy and off balance. I had 3 attempts that day and they look like I'm on the way to possibly landing my first ones in the near future. I think I just need to cut out wider to gain more speed and then stomp at the wake harder. My knees don't fully extend. What do you guys think?

https://youtu.be/zhHcieX3sCA

Thank you everyone for all the tip's!
Old     (alexair)      Join Date: Oct 2008       08-20-2016, 11:11 PM Reply   
Sorry I didn't read all comments but my few cents is next only: you just afraid catch the front edge and your body move to back side on landing for sure. I'm fully agree with C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)
Old     (tweeder)      Join Date: Aug 2015       08-21-2016, 8:00 AM Reply   
Have you spent much time visualizing the trick before you get out behind the boat? Besides all the other advice, really work on playing the whole trick in your head. Focus on all parts of the trick to even the handle position.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/sp...ning.html?_r=0
Old     (chillinoj)      Join Date: May 2009       08-22-2016, 8:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
I've been practicing my reentry ollies and the approach of the tantrum( slow cut in, let go of back hand, square up, and then ollie) the last 2 times out so on my 2nd set of the day I tried tantrums for the very first time. It felt terrifying flying into the wake backwards but I was actually pleasantly surprised! On my last one I actually landed on the board just extremely tail heavy and off balance. I had 3 attempts that day and they look like I'm on the way to possibly landing my first ones in the near future. I think I just need to cut out wider to gain more speed and then stomp at the wake harder. My knees don't fully extend. What do you guys think?
Congrats on getting the landing! looks like you're real close to getting the backroll on lockdown.

As for the tantrum I have never heard of going for a slow cut in...

Since I know I will be letting off, I'm cutting in at a 7 building to 8 (out of 10 Raley cut scale) to get lots of speed and momentum into the wake, then I start the process of squaring up to the wake. As for your attempts they are definitely great starts, but you're letting off way too early, it doesn't take long for you to square up. The flipping motion looks good, just practice spotting the water as you come around and if you can get on a trampoline and practice a back flip. It's the exact same motion and it will help you get used to spotting the landing and the air awareness for the tantrum.

But keep at it, you're doing great!
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       08-22-2016, 4:18 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillinoj View Post
Congrats on getting the landing! looks like you're real close to getting the backroll on lockdown.

As for the tantrum I have never heard of going for a slow cut in...

Since I know I will be letting off, I'm cutting in at a 7 building to 8 (out of 10 Raley cut scale) to get lots of speed and momentum into the wake, then I start the process of squaring up to the wake. As for your attempts they are definitely great starts, but you're letting off way too early, it doesn't take long for you to square up. The flipping motion looks good, just practice spotting the water as you come around and if you can get on a trampoline and practice a back flip. It's the exact same motion and it will help you get used to spotting the landing and the air awareness for the tantrum.

But keep at it, you're doing great!
The slow cut in was about practicing squaring up. You take a slow cut in and you square up and pop. Since your going slow you don't flip but you just ollie backwards off the wake into the middle. It did help me build confidence in the squaring up and letting go of the handle process.

Anyways, you are probably right about stopping the cut a little early. These are my first attempts and I didn't watch the video between them or anything. So I wasn't even sure if I was getting squared up or not. Do you think I need to edge out a little wider so that I can cut for longer and gain more speed?
Old     (ChaseR720)      Join Date: Jul 2015       08-22-2016, 5:49 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
The slow cut in was about practicing squaring up. You take a slow cut in and you square up and pop. Since your going slow you don't flip but you just ollie backwards off the wake into the middle. It did help me build confidence in the squaring up and letting go of the handle process.

Anyways, you are probably right about stopping the cut a little early. These are my first attempts and I didn't watch the video between them or anything. So I wasn't even sure if I was getting squared up or not. Do you think I need to edge out a little wider so that I can cut for longer and gain more speed?
Get the flip around first before worrying about speed. You're focusing more on line tension here.

The biggest thing for me is waiting and throwing the tantrum up rather than backwards. I crash 90% of my first tantrum attempts for the day because I don't wait until I'm at the top of the wake before throwing it. And I have a bad habit of throwing it backwards (faster flip without much air) vs. throwing it up and using the increased air time to get the flip around.
Old     (ryan_shima1)      Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Layton, Utah       08-22-2016, 8:10 PM Reply   
timelinex, do you feel like you're landing on your heelside edge because you get slack in the line as you come around and spot your landing? Do you feel like your rotation stops with about 10% to go?

If so, don't try to tug on the handle when leaving the wake or in the air, but rather think about keeping the handle in a stationary position as you leave the wake and rotate around it for the backroll. Having a basic but solid body position will help your handle control (chest up, shoulders back, with the handle around stomach height). I understand why people suggest tugging on the handle (to keep the handle in once you're in the air). But sometimes, it will cause slack in the line which will either cause you to rotate on the wrong axis as some people mentioned, or come up short and not land square on top of the board.

You want to feel like the line has tension when you land and the handle is in a stable, solid position in front of you. But it looks like in all your videos that you land with slack in the line, even on the one you stuck and that's why you're leaning back to stabilize yourself. Keep at it, you'll be landing it consistently soon!
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       08-23-2016, 10:24 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaseR720 View Post
Get the flip around first before worrying about speed. You're focusing more on line tension here.

The biggest thing for me is waiting and throwing the tantrum up rather than backwards. I crash 90% of my first tantrum attempts for the day because I don't wait until I'm at the top of the wake before throwing it. And I have a bad habit of throwing it backwards (faster flip without much air) vs. throwing it up and using the increased air time to get the flip around.
Yea I have to give it a better stomp to go up higher, thats for sure. However isn't it fair to be thinking about speed when it comes to this trick. That's literally whats causing the spin. The flip trip edge is based on it. The slow practice of a slow cut in, squaring up to the wake and ollieing backwards only works because I'm going slow so it doesn't actually trip you (however you do feel just a little bit of tripping that you counter with a lean forward).

From my understanding, just like many of the other inverts, your not supposed to "throw" this one either. It should all be done by the flip edge and your throwing back your head a little just to guide the flip. This is just me repeating what I've been told and have read in places, so I dont actually "know".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan_shima1 View Post
timelinex, do you feel like you're landing on your heelside edge because you get slack in the line as you come around and spot your landing? Do you feel like your rotation stops with about 10% to go?

If so, don't try to tug on the handle when leaving the wake or in the air, but rather think about keeping the handle in a stationary position as you leave the wake and rotate around it for the backroll. Having a basic but solid body position will help your handle control (chest up, shoulders back, with the handle around stomach height). I understand why people suggest tugging on the handle (to keep the handle in once you're in the air). But sometimes, it will cause slack in the line which will either cause you to rotate on the wrong axis as some people mentioned, or come up short and not land square on top of the board.

You want to feel like the line has tension when you land and the handle is in a stable, solid position in front of you. But it looks like in all your videos that you land with slack in the line, even on the one you stuck and that's why you're leaning back to stabilize yourself. Keep at it, you'll be landing it consistently soon!
Your right on. That's usually the problem. No matter how much air I get or how fast I go, I am 10% away and land with slack in the rope. That's what has been so frustrating about it. The more my form improved and the harder I cut the more pop I got and the further into the flats I got, but the landing would always be the same. 10% away and slack in the line haha.

So maybe that's what I've been doing wrong. Maybe I was unknowingly giving the rope a tug upon launch.Interesting. Thank you for the insight.
Old     (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       08-23-2016, 11:47 AM Reply   
I don't have time to go through all of these, but make sure you finish with the handle at your lead hip. If your arms are even a little out, it will stop just short.
Old     (ryan_shima1)      Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Layton, Utah       08-23-2016, 2:31 PM Reply   
[/QUOTE]Your right on. That's usually the problem. No matter how much air I get or how fast I go, I am 10% away and land with slack in the rope. That's what has been so frustrating about it. The more my form improved and the harder I cut the more pop I got and the further into the flats I got, but the landing would always be the same. 10% away and slack in the line haha.

So maybe that's what I've been doing wrong. Maybe I was unknowingly giving the rope a tug upon launch.Interesting. Thank you for the insight.[/QUOTE]

You're welcome! Sometimes a rider can get confused, thinking that the handle stays in really tight, but in reality on a HS backroll, it will go over your head as you rotate around the handle. If you leave the wake right, you just need to keep the handle in a solid, stabilized position through the whole rotation and you'll come around right onto the board.
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       08-25-2016, 2:24 PM Reply   
I think the handle might have been part of the key. I now actively try to keep it closer to me ( beginning from the cut in). I went out yesterday and out of 2 tries landed both. I caught one on film:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aM2Q_ktxQ

So hopefully I think now it will just be up to repetition to get them locked in smoother. The landings have been a little hard on the knees because I frequently land at the upward part of the trough. I have been considering moving back to 70ft from 65ft, but I don't think my TS is quite consistent enough yet.

I tried a few tantrums again and here were my 2 tries:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOkRWN9KwGg

I recognize I still need to give the wake a better stomp. I am only extending my legs a little bit and then already starting the backwards tuck. I'll get try to focus on that harder next time. My main concern though has been back ankle. All my tries that I land board down have been TERRIBLE on my back ankle. I'm landing so heavy on it and I haven't been able to do more than 2 or 3 tries because I feel like if I do I might twist or break it! Anything I can do to prevent this rear foot heavy landing or is it just part of the learning curve for the tantrum.
Old     (solo)      Join Date: Oct 2001       08-25-2016, 3:10 PM Reply   
You're under rotating because your handle is way out in front of you. Keep the handle close to your waist and you should land that backroll.
Old     (ryan_shima1)      Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Layton, Utah       08-25-2016, 8:35 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
I think the handle might have been part of the key. I now actively try to keep it closer to me ( beginning from the cut in). I went out yesterday and out of 2 tries landed both. I caught one on film:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aM2Q_ktxQ

So hopefully I think now it will just be up to repetition to get them locked in smoother. The landings have been a little hard on the knees because I frequently land at the upward part of the trough. I have been considering moving back to 70ft from 65ft, but I don't think my TS is quite consistent enough yet.

That backroll looked much better, with better handle control. Good job! But like Steven says above, keep the handle lower toward your waist, not at your chest.

I tried a few tantrums again and here were my 2 tries:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOkRWN9KwGg

I recognize I still need to give the wake a better stomp. I am only extending my legs a little bit and then already starting the backwards tuck. I'll get try to focus on that harder next time. My main concern though has been back ankle. All my tries that I land board down have been TERRIBLE on my back ankle. I'm landing so heavy on it and I haven't been able to do more than 2 or 3 tries because I feel like if I do I might twist or break it! Anything I can do to prevent this rear foot heavy landing or is it just part of the learning curve for the tantrum.
You're coming in really back foot heavy on the approach. Square up and put even pressure on both your feet as you edge in. That will help with the pop and also land more square on your board instead of landing so heavy on your back leg. Also, you're initiating the trick way too early. Edge to the top of the wake and then initiate the tantrum. You'll then feel the pop come from the wake and it will boost you over. Right now, you're coming up short and not clearing the wake because you're trying to do a back flip over the wake. Let the wake do the work for you. Good luck!
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       08-26-2016, 9:00 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan_shima1 View Post
You're coming in really back foot heavy on the approach. Square up and put even pressure on both your feet as you edge in. That will help with the pop and also land more square on your board instead of landing so heavy on your back leg. Also, you're initiating the trick way too early. Edge to the top of the wake and then initiate the tantrum. You'll then feel the pop come from the wake and it will boost you over. Right now, you're coming up short and not clearing the wake because you're trying to do a back flip over the wake. Let the wake do the work for you. Good luck!
Will do. I think I'm still getting use to that edge change before the wake so I exaggerate it to make sure its happening. I'll try to delay it.

When you are saying I am coming in back foot heavy on the edge in, are you referring to the edge when I'm squaring up or the entire edge in from the flats.

Thanks!
Old     (ryan_shima1)      Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Layton, Utah       08-26-2016, 7:42 PM Reply   
You're coming in back foot heavy from the flats, as soon as you initiate your approach to the wake. Keep even pressure on both feet while edging in. If you don't think about the edge change and just ride up the wake and then throw a natural backflip at the top of the wake, the pop will happen naturally. I find it easier that way vs. trying to stop and switch edges.
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       09-20-2016, 12:32 PM Reply   
I just wanted to give everyone an update, in case someone comes up on this article having the same problem.

I've been on and off on boarding in the last month or so because I injured my rib on a bad fall (trying to HS jump as high and far into the flats as I could and then bailing mid air lol) Anyways, after I landed that first one I have been able to land them 7 out of the last 8 tries! The only reason I didn't land the one is I legitimately just goofed everything up on release because of a roller.

It's pretty amazing. The better the cut and push the higher or farther I will go, but it does absolutely nothing for the spin. After the first few that I landed is when I got the injury. Since then my cut's and pushes have been inconsistent just because of pain/soreness. So I was playing with the wrong variables. Thats why the more I improved my general form the farther into the flats and higher I got, but the spin remained exactly the freakin same (10% from landing it lol).

I can't say I am 100% certain what the secret was, but I am fairly confident that I do know what helped. I think it is all in my handle control. Before landing my first one, I did try to keep the handle close to me and not let it out. But apparently just not close enough. Now what I do is I focus on one thing throughout the trick. As I am about to start my cut in I "weld" my elbows to my sides and keep it there the entire trick. Cut, release, spin & landing I am keeping my elbows in.

Such a relief. No more bad falls, no more ripped calluses, no more frustration haha

Now as soon as my rib heals I can go back to trying the tantrum.

Thanks for all the advice guys!
Old     (ryan_shima1)      Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Layton, Utah       09-20-2016, 8:07 PM Reply   
Right on! Hope you heal up soon so you can get after that Tantrum.
Old     (bill)      Join Date: Feb 2001       09-26-2016, 12:02 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan_shima1 View Post
Right on! Hope you heal up soon so you can get after that Tantrum.
congrats this sport progression comes with some learning curve in the payment of pain LOL

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