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Old     (quik876)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-09-2015, 6:50 PM Reply   
Originally Posted by brettw View Post
Glad we have people here who know more about vaccinations and their benefits and risks then those pesky ignorant CDC folks.

As far as the number and schedule of vaccines, here's a couple of charts:

Shows by country

Looks like about 12 different vaccines for the U.S. if you scroll down to look - some given more than once.
True Brett. Like you said there's a main few they cycle through, and they give them at these different intervals and stages in life and they even say that people should CONTINUE getting some of these same vaccines throughout their lives even through their adult life as well.

Even the CDC themselves admitted several times that there's vaccine's that are not necessarily a benefit; take the recent measles outbreak at Disneyland, I can't exactly remember if one of the sources of the outbreak was already vaccinated prior to the outbreak, or if one of the victims of the outbreak had been vaccinated (have to look at the article again to be sure) but STILL was infected.

I'm no expert on the subject, nor am I trying to discourage people FROM getting their kids vaccinated, vaccinations are good to a point, but the way they have things set up, it's no wonder why the number of vaccine related injuries are on the rise, even here in the states, in other third world countries like India, it's WAY worse.

My biggest thing is that people should do their OWN research into these things rather than just accepting the word of anyone (even mine because I'm no expert, merely pointing out the inconsistencies and holes in these things) even the Physicians out there. Because many physicians today don't really do much in the way of actually treating their patients whether it's cancer or ensuring that a child grows up healthy.

I've seen it firsthand where a surgeon KNOWS there's very little else they can do for the patient and will "bandaid" the patient with gauze and sedation knowing full well that the patient won't last long, send them to post-op or to a room and tell the family with a straight face that the patient is doing fine, because if the patient dies on the table, the surgeon doesn't get paid, and will likely find themselves in front of a review board when that happens. But if the patient dies elsewhere AFTER the surgery, it's really no longer the surgeon's problem.

Now, with the addition of Government digging their claws in to make people comply (even as the and Affordable Care Act continues to rot from the ground up and MORE people lose their insurance altogether or their premiums continue to increase, except now the corrupt on BOTH sides of the aisles are getting their cuts in on the deal as well), It's just to run healthcare into the ground while wringing every penny out of everyone. Not that Health insurance was any better BEFORE now (most any type of insurance you get nowadays is a racket regardless of it being house to healthcare), what we have now accelerates the problem. It's just ensuring that the insurance companies get their big payout before it crumbles completely.

We have a Pharmacy court that's been specifically set up in this country decades ago that just pays off the victims and covers the pharmacy corporations so they can continue making billions of dollars. Look at the "treatment" of cancer in it's different forms.

One of the LEAST invasive types of treatment is using high doses of Vitamin C intravenously over several months with the only detriment to the patient is severe thirst and mild headache at 20,000 miligrams (or basically a 2000-3000 liter bag, I may have that right, may need to look at it again). But you'll hear VERY little about this form of treatment because it would basically cut the Pharmaceuticals off at the knees with their profits from the Chemo treatments.

Versus Chemotherapy or surgery (which either of those treatments only leave the patient with a 5yr survival rate, anything beyond that is often a rarity, plus there's ALWAYS the chance that the cancer may return.) At a HUGE expense to the patient because, let's face it, it's another billion dollar industry in healthcare because chemo treatments alone costs thousands of dollars for those chemical cocktails.

My thing is, if the family Doc wants to push the vaccines, hit 'em with the Vaccine safety warranty waiver to hold them more accountable if something adverse DOES happen to your kid(s) post vaccination (just simple precautionary steps, nothing more). If they don't want to sign it, well then there's a decision to be made if you want to continue to allow your kid to be vaccinated or roll the dice and take your chances.

Personally (even though I don't have kids right now) I wouldn't want to take a risk with a physician that wasn't ABSOLUTELY confident that the vaccine they administer was truly safe for their patients by signing off on that waiver.

Physicians tend to get REAL sketchy when it comes to signing documents like that, I've seen many a surgeon put off signing an implant early release form until absolutely necessary (because they wanted to use the implant WELL before it's 48hr sterility quarantine has timed out, and the spore test that was processed with the implants hasn't returned with it's results yet of whether it was positive or negative), Because if something DID happen (like the spore coming up positive because it didn't make it through the proper sterilization perameters and is no good), they've got a LOT of problems ahead of them including placing the patient on antibiotics to ward off the chance of infection or rejection.

It all comes down to your choice.
Old     (quik876)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-09-2015, 7:19 PM Reply   
Originally Posted by DenverRider View Post
Yes Brian, please explain to us how a healthcare professional who is required to be vaccinated is choosing not to be vaccinated and thereby endangering patients in a grossly negligent manor?
Again it's NOT a mandatory REQUIREMENT at a NATIONAL level (meaning it's EXPECTED for ALL healthcare professionals across the board whether in a public, government or private practice facility), it is a RECCOMENDATION for those who have DIRECT PATIENT CARE like nurses.

So it's left up to the individual healthcare facilities to make this decision of how they want to tackle the situation, As I said, Some do it to cover themselves under their infection control "bylaws" others do not. But as I said, I suspect that there will be forthcoming legislation that cement this into a "law" that will make it a National Mandate in the coming years.

Apparently DenverRider you didn't read my reply very well or else you would have seen that, so better luck NEXT time buddy.

It's much like Certifications for different jobs. Some facilities RECOMMEND you have a certification but they don't make it a big deal to enforce it (which must be kept up with Continuing education units and renewed annually, and there's people that just don't pay the fee and let it lapse).

While other facilities will REQUIRE it (the facility I work at recommends that we attain and then MAINTAIN our IAHCSMM certification, but they are working on requiring it to continue working there, so once they've hooked you with that. they've got you). So basically they're telling us it's a good idea to keep up with the certification because it makes you more valuable, and that if anything adverse happens they know that they have people that meet nationally recognized standards.

Since the IAHSCMM certification is a NATIONALLY recognized certification (basically meaning that the holder can work in ANY hospital around the world, where they accept the certification) they have NO problem with getting people who want to work (or continue to work) in our department to get that certification and maintain it.

So the same is said about the flu vaccine for healthcare workers. It varies from facility to facility whether or not it's a MANDTORY part of anyone who will be a part of direct patient care. Or if the facility does not enforce it.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       03-10-2015, 8:04 AM Reply   
What exactly is your healthcare profession?

Do not even get me started on drugs from/manufactured in India and cGMP... You cannot even compare them to what we have here. Unless you want an entirely too long rant about it, stop using that example.
Old     (quik876)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-10-2015, 6:44 PM Reply   
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
What exactly is your healthcare profession?

Do not even get me started on drugs from/manufactured in India and cGMP... You cannot even compare them to what we have here. Unless you want an entirely too long rant about it, stop using that example.
Medical Technician (CRMST)

Again I'm not saying people should completely stop vaccinating their kids, just saying be more cautious about it and be prepared by taking steps to hold the physicians more accountable if a (what we call in the medical field) sentinel event (an adverse effect that results in injury or death) happens to you, your kids or other family members, or someone you know.

I'm not talking about the pharmaceuticals from or manufactured in India I trust THOSE even LESS than I do the concoctions we have that are "approved" by the FDA (which doesn't do much testing BEYOND 90 days to see if there's any possible LONG TERM adverse effects that may arise from use of medical equipment OR medications, which is where the pharmaceutical court I spoke about before comes into play, ever see those commercials about lawsuits from adverse effects from medications or problem or injuries arising from medical equipment or implants like vaginal mesh, etc.?).

I'm speaking about the thousands of kids that were either crippled, died, or otherwise injured by the vaccinations (these were Polio vaccines) they received on behalf of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

Here's another article where the Indian Journal of Medical Ethics with accusations against WHO (World Health Organization) about another vaccination.

Learn more:

So take what you will from these articles about the "safety" of vaccines. 47,500 cases in India tends to make you wonder, especially since that happened AFTER a polio vaccine was administered is MORE than enough to raise an eyebrow or two for me.

There's a LOT going on especially where medical instrumentation is concerned right now as well. There's been an especially BIG deal going down on the safety and processing of Flexible Endoscopy Scopes right now because 23 people in Washington state died from infections (or complications from the infections) they received after their procedures. And this was AFTER the scopes had been cleaned and reprocessed according to the company's IFU (instruction for use) and the FDA's standards, so there's a BIG revamping going on with the big three endoscopic companies on their High level disinfection standards especially for the Flexible Duodendoscopic scope which was the biggest problem in this instance.

Last edited by quik876; 03-10-2015 at 6:47 PM. Reason: added more.
Old     (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       03-10-2015, 7:16 PM Reply   
Sounds like B.S. to me. Definitely research multiple sources when you read something like above:

As for the ridiculous form, why would any doctor even waste their time reading it, let alone sign it? The national vaccine injury compensation fund was created back in the 80s to compensate the extremely small % of people injured by vaccines.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       03-10-2015, 8:23 PM Reply   
Okay you're making my FDA meter go off so here we go:
The FDA requires extensive amounts of testing for vaccines just as they do any other biologic that comes in 3 phases, each phase larger and with a different goal to prove safety and efficacy. These trials are massive. The FDA receives their data and makes a determination on the approval of a vaccine based on the results of the clinical data. The trials must be follow strict conduct rules and monitor patients for SAE/UAP (SUSAR) for the duration of the trial period prior to any approval of a biologic. This can take years, not 90 days.

You mention vaccines in India as if UAP/SAE or "sentinel" events are the same as those that would occur here, which is highly unlikely due to our regulations. When you go to manufacturers in India they often run different assembly lines/plants to reflect the different cGMP requirements, you're not always getting the same stuff as the Indian market will. Without getting too far into biologic manufacturing challenges: It will be safer.

On the topic of devices: there are two pathways, the scopes you speak of circumvented the 510k pathway which resulted in their presence on the market. They put the scopes up for sale illegally. The way the device PMA is set is quite different than the drug/biologic PMA and allows many devices to be approved after review based on their predicate devices. CDER is underfunded so that's why you see things slip the cracks. You also mention things like vaginal mesh etc causing problems, which again was likely approved based on a predicate device, via the 510k pathway. Predicate devices are referred to as such because they are devices that were marketed prior to any device regulation, all novel devices must go through a different approval pathway. This system makes it easier for things to slip through, blame red tape and underfunding. Not the FDA.
Old     (quik876)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-11-2015, 12:32 PM Reply   
Originally Posted by brettw View Post
Sounds like B.S. to me. Definitely research multiple sources when you read something like above:

As for the ridiculous form, why would any doctor even waste their time reading it, let alone sign it? The national vaccine injury compensation fund was created back in the 80s to compensate the extremely small % of people injured by vaccines.
I've seen MANY a surgeon or physician get sketchy when it comes to having to put their name on something they want to get done. Especially when it has anything to do with their license.

I've seen PLENTY of surgeons go bannana balls because they want an implant tray to do a procedure (either because the Implant representative they're using didn't get the tray they want to use for the procedure in within the proper timeframe for processing, or there was bad communication, etc.) but we can't release it to them before the quaratine time has passed, So they rant and rave, throw fits, make threats or whatever they try to get that tray up to them.

But the moment you say: Ok, then sign this waiver stating that YOU (the surgeon) takes FULL responsibility if/when there's a problem with this patient having an infection or rejection (or something else) from these implants because you wanted it BEFORE it's quarantine time has not been met and we've informed you of this.

And usually they'll either shut up and wait, or they'll say screw it and sign it (it's been a 50/50 deal, some just back off while others will sign it just to keep things moving)
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       03-12-2015, 1:10 PM Reply   
It sounds like you're suggesting that the FDA has our best interest in mind.
Old     (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       03-12-2015, 1:41 PM Reply   
Originally Posted by quik876 View Post
as it stands now, It's based on facility to facility or whether or not you have direct contact with patients. It's not a mandatory national thing (like they'd like people to believe, at least not right now. I expect to start seeing/hearing about some legislation that will come into play soon to "make" it mandatory through some bs by the CDC to which groups like AAMI, AORN, etc will try to enact it to "comply".) But SOME facilities make it mandatory through their own facility's bylaws of "infection control". You can also do it by deferring on religious grounds.
My company requires it or you are not allowed to enter a patient care facility. The only way to opt out at my company that I know of is if you are allergic to it somehow. We are a Catholic organization so I don't know if someone could pull a religion card or not.
Old     (quik876)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-12-2015, 7:15 PM Reply   
Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
It sounds like you're suggesting that the FDA has our best interest in mind.
Exactly what I'm saying. Jarrod. The FDA doesn't ALWAYS have the people's best interest in mind (even though that's what they're SUPPOSE to be for, is ensure quality, safe products for use). But like ANY of the alphabet government agencies they're subject to corruption from wherever it may come from.

Another thing is yes these pharmacy courts were set up back in the 80's with the initial idea of compensating the victims, but has basically just become another means of hush payment and not actually holding the pharma companies accountable so they continue slipping through the cracks, the underfunding IS a problem but it's just an undercut of a much LARGER problem with corruption of the system as a whole which is what I've been getting at. But the issue of these scopes I mentioned earlier is a change in the cleaning and disinfection of them according to both the FDA AND the companies that provide the scopes to the medical facilities because the CRE superbug that infected the patients was the base problem that was caused in Washington State, and that's all under review right now and hopefully we'll see an improvement there.

Yeah these alphabet agencies LOOK like they're stand up and do-right, but that's what WE need to do to KEEP them honest and that waiver is just one way to do it, people can EASILY dismiss a wrongdoing when there's nothing to back it up because it's all hearsay (talked about that in one of our department meetings today actually), but the moment you have them put their name and signature to black and white paper with the possibility of their license or certification on the line (or have physical proof like photographs etc.), they tend to get REAL sketchy if they aren't 100% confident in what they're doing.

My entire point is making sure to hold physicians (or anyone else like schools, colleges, medical facilities, or even groups like the FDA or CDC) accountable for their actions in forcing people to do these things when there ARE real dangers out there (not to mention create opportunities for better/safer alternatives available). People are free to use the Vaccine Warranty Safety waiver or not it's their choice, but I'd just hate to hear about any more kids go for another round of vaccines and something happens and it gets brushed under the rug and it's just another "debatable" issue and the kids become another addition to the statistics list. Ignorance from one group of people, is power to others especially in the case of making a more INFORMED choice.

These Pharmaceutical and medical equipment companies send these reps out all the time with these expense accounts to take potential buyers (mostly the surgeons, and service leaders in the Operating Room) out for dinners or buy meals for the surgical staff from Panera Bread, or Pizza Hutt, etc. I see it all the time another rep comes through trying to get that contract.

Just the other day, there was an article about a girl who was forcefully vaccinated at her school, and he mom was HIGHLY pissed because she consented to a sports physical for her daughter but not for any vaccinations (of course this is in Chicago, so go figure, they do backdoor shady deals like that). These schools are getting sneakier and sneakier, which is setting a BAD precedence for the future. again It should be up to the parent on the health concerns of their child and should be INFORMED of everything ahead of time.

Last edited by quik876; 03-12-2015 at 7:18 PM. Reason: more info
Old     (quik876)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-12-2015, 7:22 PM Reply   
Originally Posted by timmyb View Post
My company requires it or you are not allowed to enter a patient care facility. The only way to opt out at my company that I know of is if you are allergic to it somehow. We are a Catholic organization so I don't know if someone could pull a religion card or not.
With ours if you don't get a flu vaccine and you are in directly involved with the patient's continuum of care then they expect you to wear a face mask and gloves and take extra precautions. but again that's under our infection control bylaws and policies.
Old     (hco)      Join Date: Jun 2006       03-17-2015, 6:18 PM Reply   
Lesson learned from this thread: Never trust anyone with the initials 'B.W.'
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       03-18-2015, 4:28 PM Reply
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       03-19-2015, 7:28 AM Reply   
Originally Posted by hco View Post
Lesson learned from this thread: Never trust anyone with the initials 'B.W.'

Unless educated or working specifically with this, passing off experience and opinion as information is poor practice.
Old     (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-30-2015, 2:08 PM Reply   
And now it's the law - here in CA, at least:

bout time.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       06-30-2015, 2:10 PM Reply   
Old     (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       04-30-2019, 1:27 PM Reply   
I remembered this thread when reading and hearing about the measles resurgence.

It's such a shame. Do we still have parents here who think not vaccinating your kids against at least the measles is a great idea?
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       04-30-2019, 2:37 PM Reply   
Welcome back Brett. The avg iq of the board just rose a couple points. I feel like the antivax crowd is where the anti science homeschoolers on the right can get together with the loonbird flower children on the left and make a real ****ing mess.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       05-05-2019, 5:25 PM Reply   
I stand corrected , itís more of ďan unheard of mix of Orthodox Jews, uneducated fringe conspiracists, and kombucha-douching private school momsĒ


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