Another school shooting

Originally Posted by joeshmoe

Gas-lighting much? 11,000 homicides each year in the US, 73% of those USE GUNS!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081
America is the greatest country in the World because NO One is above the law! Why should a punk kid who gets kicked out of school be allowed to buy a firearm? What is wrong with black listing aggressive juveniles until they reach the age of 25? I know the NRA would be against this and you are taking away aggressive kids 1st amendment rights, but it is for the good of society as a whole.

What is gas lighting is your odd use of "facts". You are not even following the "facts" of your article. Funny how the article says california bans "assult rifles". first there is no such thing. Second, california does not ban them. They ban certain features and' or make you register rifles without those features differently. Funny thing is that you nor they understand what is actually the legal registered portion of these so called "assault weapons".

Good question on black listing. What if I don't agree with the words you say. Can I get you blacklisted from using the internet or attending college where you may have to write a paper for a number of years?

How about this. How about we ban all kids with bad grades, alcohol or week usage as a minor, speeding ticket or other unacceptable social behavior until 25 or beyond from driving:



as you can see vehicle deaths are still higher than ALL GUN Deaths. Considering (according to your article) 22,000 of the 30,000 gun deaths are actually suicide, the murder rate is very low and especially low compared to vehicle deaths.

Knock out the top 5 to 10 democrat cities, we have a murder rate less than most of those pointed to liberal European countries even with all our guns and theirs outlawed.

while this is an emotional topic, your use of logic is displaced. Did you go on an online screed when that kid mowed down and killed the 9 motorcyclists less than a month ago or didn't the democrats put out the memo on the TeeVee to tell you to go to work on guns?

Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier

Good question on black listing. What if I don't agree with the words you say. Can I get you blacklisted from using the internet or attending college where you may have to write a paper for a number of years?
How about this. How about we ban all kids with bad grades, alcohol or week usage as a minor, speeding ticket or other unacceptable social behavior until 25 or beyond from driving:

No, only if a kid gets kicked out of school, then he would Not be able to buy a gun until he is 25, what's wrong with that? Now, as far as the car deaths go, won't it be awesome when all of the cars are autonomous and we have O deaths! Anyways, there are millions of cars on the road and there are VERY FEW cars on the road with drivers trying to kill people, that's why it's called an accident when people die. There are millions and millions of cars passing each other at over 100 mph only separated by a double yellow line, it is amazing there are less than 100 deaths every day, but most of those deaths are caused by drunk drivers, speeding or people using their phones. If you drive, do not drink, speed, or text! And if you kill someone, even accidentally, you will go to jail. You do not buy a car to go out and kill someone, even though it happens every day, so to use the analogy, that buying an automobile is worse than buying a gun to kill people is ludicrous!

Originally Posted by joeshmoe

No, only if a kid gets kicked out of school, then he would Not be able to buy a gun until he is 25, what's wrong with that? Now, as far as the car deaths go, won't it be awesome when all of the cars are autonomous and we have O deaths! Anyways, there are millions of cars on the road and there are VERY FEW cars on the road with drivers trying to kill people, that's why it's called an accident when people die. There are millions and millions of cars passing each other at over 100 mph only separated by a double yellow line, it is amazing there are less than 100 deaths every day, but most of those deaths are caused by drunk drivers, speeding or people using their phones. If you drive, do not drink, speed, or text! And if you kill someone, even accidentally, you will go to jail. You do not buy a car to go out and kill someone, even though it happens every day, so to use the analogy, that buying an automobile is worse than buying a gun to kill people is ludicrous!

There are a few good talking points.

First point:

owning a firearm is a RIGHT. just like your ability to type this is a right. You also have the right of free association and religion among rights. Removing rights is taken very seriously and while we can debate the equal application of justice, it is a highly debated peer reviewed process with many checks and balances. You don't take peoples rights away because Jr can't pass Alegbra and cusses out the teacher. You should look up all the famous people who were kicked out of school Some are billionaries and many famous entertainers.

Second point:

Of the gun deaths that you are speaking about, only 500 to 1000 a year are accidents. There are over 250 million guns in America and only that many accidents. The rest are wilful acts. Around 20,000 or so are suicide. God rest their souls. Guns were just a tool. The 11,000 or so murders with guns are categorized in this 2011 CDC report from National Vital Statistics,

Deaths: Preliminary Data for 2011
by Donna L. Hoyert, Ph.D., and Jiaquan Xu, M.D., Division of Vital Statistics

According to the Center for Disease Control (CDC), gang homicides accounted for roughly 8,900 of 11,100 gun murders in both 2010 and 2011. That means that there were just 2,200 non gang-related firearm murders in both years in a country of over 300 million people and 250 million guns.

Another study shows that in Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit and Washington D.C, 25% of all murder by gun happens in those 4 cities.

So 1650 murder in the whole rest of the country and if you count California alone, there are over 1,000 a year there.

All these place have the strictest gun control laws but contribute to almost all the violence.

In the mean time regardless of accident, you are still have over 5 million crashes each year killing 30,000 to 40,000 in vehicles and injuring over 2.2 million each year like clockwork. According to safety people, there is not such thing as an accident. There is always a trigger to an "accident". Question is, was it on purpose or even negligent. Are all people shot in those democrat city gang attacks the intended victims?

If you drive a car and are impaired then you basically murdered someone.

As far as your very few people in cars trying to kill people, they are keeping those stats close to the vest. Hard to find those stats. There are many subtle types of homicide and manslaughter associated with vehicles. Point is, it is ton compared to non gang murders.

If you want to go to drug overdoses, those are over 40,000 a year too. Oddly enough many of those gun murders are done to get people their drugs so they can screed about guns online.

Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier

What is gas lighting is your odd use of "facts". You are not even following the "facts" of your article. Funny how the article says california bans "assult rifles". first there is no such thing. Second, california does not ban them. They ban certain features and' or make you register rifles without those features differently. Funny thing is that you nor they understand what is actually the legal registered portion of these so called "assault weapons".

Good question on black listing. What if I don't agree with the words you say. Can I get you blacklisted from using the internet or attending college where you may have to write a paper for a number of years?

How about this. How about we ban all kids with bad grades, alcohol or week usage as a minor, speeding ticket or other unacceptable social behavior until 25 or beyond from driving:



as you can see vehicle deaths are still higher than ALL GUN Deaths. Considering (according to your article) 22,000 of the 30,000 gun deaths are actually suicide, the murder rate is very low and especially low compared to vehicle deaths.

Knock out the top 5 to 10 democrat cities, we have a murder rate less than most of those pointed to liberal European countries even with all our guns and theirs outlawed.

while this is an emotional topic, your use of logic is displaced. Did you go on an online screed when that kid mowed down and killed the 9 motorcyclists less than a month ago or didn't the democrats put out the memo on the TeeVee to tell you to go to work on guns?

Wow dude, comparing auto deaths to gun deaths. Tens of millions of cars on the US roads at any time. What next? Are you going to show us a graph showing us that cancer kills more than guns?

And speaking of logic, why don't we use the delusional logic of a right-winger? You know the one where you guys proclaim, "Well, criminals are going to break the law anyway, so why have any gun regulations?" Why don't we get rid of speed limits? People are going to speed, so why do we need them? Stop signs; hell, people run those all of the times so let's just get rid of those, as well?

Originally Posted by wake77

Wow dude, comparing auto deaths to gun deaths. Tens of millions of cars on the US roads at any time. What next? Are you going to show us a graph showing us that cancer kills more than guns?

And speaking of logic, why don't we use the delusional logic of a right-winger? You know the one where you guys proclaim, "Well, criminals are going to break the law anyway, so why have any gun regulations?" Why don't we get rid of speed limits? People are going to speed, so why do we need them? Stop signs; hell, people run those all of the times so let's just get rid of those, as well?

You guys make those arguments against drugs. Legalize them all many on here say even though they kill 40,000 plus a year in overdoses.

I have a few guns at home. I have yet seen one of them get up and go kill anyone. There are over 250,000 million guns in the hands of people at any given time. Like I said, get rid of democrat cities, at we have less of an issue than sweden. Oddly enough, the highest gun crime areas are the ones where there are extremely tight gun laws. Where did that person in Texes go for his terror campaign? A mall with a policy of no concealed carry in a state that welcomes concealed carry.

Another looney bin liberal idea, give away our rights to the government because you can not keep your people under control.

Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier

You guys make those arguments against drugs. Legalize them all many on here say even though they kill 40,000 plus a year in overdoses.

I have a few guns at home. I have yet seen one of them get up and go kill anyone. There are over 250,000 million guns in the hands of people at any given time. Like I said, get rid of democrat cities, at we have less of an issue than sweden. Oddly enough, the highest gun crime areas are the ones where there are extremely tight gun laws. Where did that person in Texes go for his terror campaign? A mall with a policy of no concealed carry in a state that welcomes concealed carry.

Another looney bin liberal idea, give away our rights to the government because you can not keep your people under control.

How come you can just dismiss the 20,000 annual suicide deaths but then complain about ODs? Aren't they very similar? If not why not?

you cite high crime in areas with high regulation. Are you suggesting that the regulation causes the crime or that areas with a lot of criminal activity have lots of law breakers? You aren't suggesting that because laws get broken by criminals that we shouldn't have laws (see for example your first paragraph about "you guys" and drugs)?

Originally Posted by shawndoggy

How come you can just dismiss the 20,000 annual suicide deaths but then complain about ODs? Aren't they very similar? If not why not?

you cite high crime in areas with high regulation. Are you suggesting that the regulation causes the crime or that areas with a lot of criminal activity have lots of law breakers? You aren't suggesting that because laws get broken by criminals that we shouldn't have laws (see for example your first paragraph about "you guys" and drugs)?

What can you say about suicide deaths? It is part of the mental health issues in the country. Then again, maybe our rate is similar to the rest of the world or maybe we did not have this many historically because the world had some good ol bloody wars so people can get their death wish by charging a machine gun or war refocused the masses with a cause to live for. Hard telling. At the end of the day if someone is going to kill themselves, there are many ways and blaming the way they do it is not a real discussion point.

As far as OD's. Guns don't draw you in at a party or after a surgery and put their hooks into you until you over do it while chasing the dragon. While I am sure some people OD for suicide, some of them are people chasing pleasure and some of them are also trying to medicate mental health issues. If it is mental health, what can you do? You can not make a person commit themselves. You can't detain them against their will. If we could the whole network of MSNBC would have been detained a long time ago.

I would say the regulation does nothing to deter crime. It is the culture of the people and the evil in any given individuals heart. England is now engaging in knife control measures. You want the government registering your steak knives? Like Mark pointed out, the only people who will have guns are the criminals that are bent on using them on other people anyway which is already illegal. Now you just open it up to other crimes like rape, home invasion robbery, etc.

Aren't you guys suggesting the war on drugs doesn't work so we should make drugs legal? Heard that stupid argument over and over.

So much of the blame on the gun is stupid and the need to remove them in history is always by a group who is trying to subjegate the masses. Considering the democrat party has a long history of this and all of their associated left wing governments in history, I will take a very strict PASS on this.

On mental health issue. What can you say again. You are seeing a real uptick in California. Mass homelessness. Middle class dying. Why? Regulations and the regulations that cause the cost of basic living from being accessed by even the middle class. I am sure you just love the fact that ol California stuck it to Trump with higher effeciency regulations. I am also sure you true believers love it that california also passed a law that mandates 100% renewables (which is a lie unless the state is going to put in giant batteries). All that means is the regular people are not going to be able to afford energy or vehicles. It is already happening. PG&E is getting expensive. I could not even give away a car that was running well because it had a fault light on. New cars are well over $20,000 and the registration and insurance is even more out of control. So, are we really having a mental health issue or is it a government sponsored attack on the people and created dispair?

Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier

You guys make those arguments against drugs. Legalize them all many on here say even though they kill 40,000 plus a year in overdoses.

I have a few guns at home. I have yet seen one of them get up and go kill anyone. There are over 250,000 million guns in the hands of people at any given time. Like I said, get rid of democrat cities, at we have less of an issue than sweden. Oddly enough, the highest gun crime areas are the ones where there are extremely tight gun laws. Where did that person in Texes go for his terror campaign? A mall with a policy of no concealed carry in a state that welcomes concealed carry.

Another looney bin liberal idea, give away our rights to the government because you can not keep your people under control.

I have never made an argument about legalization of drugs with the exception of marijuana. Besides, the ones killing the most are the ones legally manufactured by drug companies.

Well, let's apply your logic to other things. Why do we forbid countries from having nuclear weapons? I have yet seen one of them get up and go kill anyone.

And where did you see the mall had "a policy of no concealed carry"?

Originally Posted by wake77

I have never made an argument about legalization of drugs with the exception of marijuana. Besides, the ones killing the most are the ones legally manufactured by drug companies.

Well, let's apply your logic to other things. Why do we forbid countries from having nuclear weapons? I have yet seen one of them get up and go kill anyone.

And where did you see the mall had "a policy of no concealed carry"?

The drug company ones are the documented ones. Plenty from other hard core drugs.

You ever thought that the increase of mental illness could be caused by marijuana? It does have an impact on the developing brain. Matter of fact mental health experts will tell you that your emotional growth pretty much stops the day that you start using drugs (including weed).

Originally Posted by wake77

I have never made an argument about legalization of drugs with the exception of marijuana. Besides, the ones killing the most are the ones legally manufactured by drug companies.

Well, let's apply your logic to other things. Why do we forbid countries from having nuclear weapons? I have yet seen one of them get up and go kill anyone.

And where did you see the mall had "a policy of no concealed carry"?

https://spectator.org/mass-shootings-in-gun-free-zones/

Mass Shootings in Gun-Free Zones
For good reason these self-congratulatory zones have become a way of death.

According to ABC News, El Paso law enforcement officials advise that, moments before his killing rampage, the shooter cased the Walmart “looking for Mexicans.” While that may be so, it is nevertheless true that, consistent with his “manifesto,” his recon was also calculated to make sure that he would be attacking in a low-security area. In that regard, the Walmart store had no armed security guard, no police presence, and was located in a shopping mall that was a self-proclaimed “gun-free zone.”

Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier

https://spectator.org/mass-shootings-in-gun-free-zones/

Mass Shootings in Gun-Free Zones
For good reason these self-congratulatory zones have become a way of death.

According to ABC News, El Paso law enforcement officials advise that, moments before his killing rampage, the shooter cased the Walmart “looking for Mexicans.” While that may be so, it is nevertheless true that, consistent with his “manifesto,” his recon was also calculated to make sure that he would be attacking in a low-security area. In that regard, the Walmart store had no armed security guard, no police presence, and was located in a shopping mall that was a self-proclaimed “gun-free zone.”

That is not proof that the mall in El Paso was a "gun-free zone". And maybe it's because I live in TN, but I have never seen an "armed security guard" in any of the Walmarts I have visited. Come to think about it, I have never seen an "armed security guard" in any of the Walmarts I have visited in different states.

The whole "Gun-Free Zone" argument is BS anyway. Even if the mall in El Paso was a self-described "Gun Free Zone" (which it wasn't), there is no criminal penalty in TX for violating that type of law.

Originally Posted by wake77

That is not proof that the mall in El Paso was a "gun-free zone". And maybe it's because I live in TN, but I have never seen an "armed security guard" in any of the Walmarts I have visited. Come to think about it, I have never seen an "armed security guard" in any of the Walmarts I have visited in different states.

The whole "Gun-Free Zone" argument is BS anyway. Even if the mall in El Paso was a self-described "Gun Free Zone" (which it wasn't), there is no criminal penalty in TX for violating that type of law.

It was the profile he apparently stated in his manafesto of the type of place he was looking for.

Originally Posted by wake77

I have never made an argument about legalization of drugs with the exception of marijuana. Besides, the ones killing the most are the ones legally manufactured by drug companies.

Well, let's apply your logic to other things. Why do we forbid countries from having nuclear weapons? I have yet seen one of them get up and go kill anyone.

And where did you see the mall had "a policy of no concealed carry"?

actually I have seen the reports on nuclear devices getting up and killing someone. Usually based on ignorance of the situation or being too caviler, but it happens.

You really need someone to explain to you why we try and keep Iran and others like that from having nuclear weapons? It is done so they do not have an equal seat at the world table and rightfully so. Just like you democrats want to keep people from having guns for protection.

Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier

actually I have seen the reports on nuclear devices getting up and killing someone. Usually based on ignorance of the situation or being too caviler, but it happens.

You really need someone to explain to you why we try and keep Iran and others like that from having nuclear weapons? It is done so they do not have an equal seat at the world table and rightfully so. Just like you democrats want to keep people from having guns for protection.

Oh yeah? Who knew that nuclear weapons are able to move around on their own? You have to be effing with me right now.

You really need to examine my comments more closely. Who was advocating "Iran and others" from having nuclear weapons? Not me. You totally missed the point. The argument was that weapons (whether it's a handgun, a shotgun, a bazooka, an a-bomb, whatever) should not be allowed in the hands of the wrong people.

Originally Posted by wake77

Oh yeah? Who knew that nuclear weapons are able to move around on their own? You have to be effing with me right now.

You really need to examine my comments more closely. Who was advocating "Iran and others" from having nuclear weapons? Not me. You totally missed the point. The argument was that weapons (whether it's a handgun, a shotgun, a bazooka, an a-bomb, whatever) should not be allowed in the hands of the wrong people.

So are you saying that the American public is the wrong people to have guns or is it just the correct type of citizens that get guns?