Thought I would post up one of the modifications I made this year... The MV10 surf enhancement
Boat is a 2012 F-23 Tomcat, PCM 409, Acme 2079 Prop, 2,400# gate controlled Stock Ballast +3,000# in pumps and sacks.
2 - Lenco 102 actuators 4.25" Stroke
2 - 1"X8" 18" long Oak Planks
4 - Strap Hinges
20' - 3 conductor, 14 gauge marine cable
2 - waterproof 30 amp automotive momentary "power window" switches
assorted stainless screws and bolts..
total outlay was about $500...
So first off I had to decide on how to attach the tabs.. My boat (F-23 Tomcat) has quite a bit of curvature along the edges so I needed something that would give me good bearing across the surface of the hinge. I chose strap style hinges which when tightened down would bend and form the hulls curvature.
I did a little CAD drafting to determine the proper placement of the actuators to allow for a 30 degree deflection from the side of the boat when fully extended and to be right up tight to the swim platform when retracted.
for the tabs themselves I started with something simple.. the oak planks.. I wanted something quick and easy so I could test it easily and modify if needed... eventually when I settle on a tab shape and design I will most likely either switch to ABS or sand, round, fiberglass and paint the planks..
The rest was basically the same as a horizontal trim tab install... This mod only actually took about 3 hours including the wiring to the switch...
Last edited by Midnightv10; 08-29-2013 at 9:44 PM.
For switch placement I wanted something close to the throttle.. The switches were small enough that I was able to mount them side by side at the top of my armrest.. Very easy to manipulate on the fly and push at the same time for a quick switch of the wave from regular to goofy.. (got a new trick to suck at .. the other single window switch in the picture is for the wake plate..
Initial Test
I tested it out with a few primary ballast configurations from Stock only 2400#, to bags only 2200# rear and 500-ish up front, to fully slammed everything full 5000# plus...
the great thing about this is that now I can weight the boat evenly (much safer and stable) and switch from regular to goofy in about 10 seconds...
During the initial testing I did not have a chance to play with the weighting of the boat much (the regular side is Money but the Goofy side is a bit washy... I am sure by transferring a bit of water with the X-link I will be able to get it just as clean though...
Anyway... here is the obligatory video of the first test...unfortunately I only had my son out with me so I was unable to take a set so that would have to wait
Last edited by Midnightv10; 08-29-2013 at 10:09 PM.
Second version of the gates. This time they are 20 inches long, 12 inches high in the back and 10 inches high in the front.. A bit of performance gain and much more aesthetically pleasing
Also coated this set with fiberglass resin and epoxy paint for durability...
Have you tried a Port Stock full, 1100, bow, and just the stock SB full? Basically all weight you run minis the SB 1100?
I don't think this type of system would react well to weighting the surf side much. I could be wrong but if you list the boat a bunch to the surf side the tab that gets deployed on the non surfside with be mostly out of the water basically negating the effectiveness of the tab. I would think the best way to use a tab/NSS setup would to weight the boat evenly or slightly biased towards the surf side.
I would understand that "slamming" to one side may pull it out of the water, but for push displacement is still needed. That's why maybe not using the SB 1100, or only adding a little, may have a great effect on push...not just cleanliness....That's why Midnight's setup is badass with the x link included...tons of wiggle room.
Have you tried a Port Stock full, 1100, bow, and just the stock SB full? Basically all weight you run minis the SB 1100?
Yes but not very good results there... I am finding that the more level the boat is the better the wave. The whole point of the tab is to divert the water coming around the hull on the non surf side which allow the surf side to "roll over" a little further and create that nice smooth wave..
So basically if you lean the boat too much to the surf side, the non surf tab is actually either higher up in the water or partially out of the water defeating its purpose..
I have found that I get a little bit of turbulence from the closed surf side tab which may be affecting the lip.. Regular side is money but goof still has a tad bit of wash but hardly noticeable to me.... still tweeking though
I don't think this type of system would react well to weighting the surf side much. I could be wrong but if you list the boat a bunch to the surf side the tab that gets deployed on the non surfside with be mostly out of the water basically negating the effectiveness of the tab. I would think the best way to use a tab/NSS setup would to weight the boat evenly or slightly biased towards the surf side.
Exactly...
Maybe even just a bit biased to the non surf side.. just a little.. haven't tried that yet
I would understand that "slamming" to one side may pull it out of the water, but for push displacement is still needed. That's why maybe not using the SB 1100, or only adding a little, may have a great effect on push...not just cleanliness....That's why Midnight's setup is badass with the x link included...tons of wiggle room.
Honestly, most of the riding we have done this summer with it I have only been running only the bags and leaving the stock tanks empty... Wave has good length and TONS of push... and the boat doesn't feel like its straining as hard with full weight.
Stock tanks full with the bow bag is pretty good too but not quite as much push. I think the bags give better rear displacement (squat) since the stock tanks run 3/4 of the way up the sides of the boat...
The real beauty is being able to switch riders at the flip of the switch and operating the boat level... wife feels a lot more comfortable at the wheel not worried the boat will "tip over" and everyone in the boat can sit about anywhere they want.
Honestly, most of the riding we have done this summer with it I have only been running only the bags and leaving the stock tanks empty... Wave has good length and TONS of push... and the boat doesn't feel like its straining as hard with full weight.
Stock tanks full with the bow bag is pretty good too but not quite as much push. I think the bags give better rear displacement (squat) since the stock tanks run 3/4 of the way up the sides of the boat...
The real beauty is being able to switch riders at the flip of the switch and operating the boat level... wife feels a lot more comfortable at the wheel not worried the boat will "tip over" and everyone in the boat can sit about anywhere they want.
nice setup Russ! Your 2nd version of the tab is exactly what I'm going to do - that additional height just off the transom is missing in my first version as well.
would a little more bow weight clean up that goofy lip wash? Or do you think it would be better to sink the surfside? My hypothesis is that you are seeing the effect of yaw resulting from prop rotation and the boat is effectively "heavy" on the goofy side. How does a cheat to the regular side impact the wave?
BTW, glad the cat is finally officially out of the bag!
Very impressive install, from the pictures it looks like it came from the factory. If you don't mind, I have a few questions for you...
After having the MB Gate compared to traditional weighting which one do you prefer? are the wakes comparable or was one setup obviously better than the other?
Is there any way to auto retract the gates when below 7mph or do you just leave them extended the entire surf set? or manually retract when someone falls?
The wake with the MB gate looks really nice. And make sure and don't let MB see this, they already told us during our factory tour they don't need any type of surf system, maybe you can shed some light for them.
If you deploy the tabs at wakeboard speeds what happens to the wake? (SG, NSS or homemade)
Im not that into wake surfing but maybe this makes one side of my wake huge/steep/rampy etc? I have visions of a super Surfgate assisted, double up, kicker being created
Maybe it rips the tabs off and your boat sinks...lol
nice setup Russ! Your 2nd version of the tab is exactly what I'm going to do - that additional height just off the transom is missing in my first version as well.
Thanks Nicolas. That is why I am just using wood for my tabs right now... so I can try out different sizes before I make the final ones.. Not sure what I am going to use yet but I really like the Lexan your using.. that looks really sharp. anxious to see some surf pics of your set up.
would a little more bow weight clean up that goofy lip wash? Or do you think it would be better to sink the surfside? My hypothesis is that you are seeing the effect of yaw resulting from prop rotation and the boat is effectively "heavy" on the goofy side. How does a cheat to the regular side impact the wave?
BTW, glad the cat is finally officially out of the bag!
Maybe some more bow weight.. have not tried that yet. I have an extra 400# sack for the walkway I will try next time I am out..
I have been messing a little with leaning it a bit to the right but I think I am loosing the effect of the tab as it starts to come out of the water more lessening its effect on the convergence of the water.
Very impressive install, from the pictures it looks like it came from the factory. If you don't mind, I have a few questions for you...
After having the MB Gate compared to traditional weighting which one do you prefer? are the wakes comparable or was one setup obviously better than the other?
Is there any way to auto retract the gates when below 7mph or do you just leave them extended the entire surf set? or manually retract when someone falls?
The wake with the MB gate looks really nice. And make sure and don't let MB see this, they already told us during our factory tour they don't need any type of surf system, maybe you can shed some light for them.
Again, nice work!
Honestly, I have not traditionally weighted the boat all summer. We have been running with the gates all year.. Wave wise I would say both methods are pretty similar (big and long with tons of push) If I were to change out boats I would definitely do this again.. its so worth it to run the boat level and switch out sides so fast.
As for the auto retract, that's gonna be this winters project.. for now I am just switching the gates manually with the window switches.. pretty simple... I throw the throttle down and immediately hit the switch, takes about 8 seconds to deploy the gate. when the rider falls I go into neutral, turn the wheel hard right and hit the switch while I am spinning around to pick up the rider... rinse and repeat.. I can easily switch the surf sides too by holding both switches at the same time..
I doubt MB will come up with an enhancement like this (I wish they would, but think they wont)
I would really like to see them integrate some form of stock bow ballast though..
If you deploy the tabs at wakeboard speeds what happens to the wake? (SG, NSS or homemade)
Im not that into wake surfing but maybe this makes one side of my wake huge/steep/rampy etc? I have visions of a super Surfgate assisted, double up, kicker being created
Maybe it rips the tabs off and your boat sinks...lol
sorry for the mini hijack
Yeah I tried that briefly... just makes a whole lot of spray and wrecks the wake..lol...
With all the mods I did this year (surf tabs, wake plate, and plumbed ballast I wound up drilling 52 holes of various sizes in my hull..
Hardest part was that first hole.. by 52 I was numb to it..
When you are drilling all these holes, and mounting stuff with through bolts or screws, are you using 3M 5200 or fiberglass on the inside of the hole? The reason I ask is growing up in Louisiana I have seen hundreds of boats with rotten hulls and on almost every one of them the rot starts around a through mount in the hull. I don't really know anything about new boats, does current construction stop this?
Duffy - Depends on which side your turning.. It turns great around the deployed side...
But I usually turn around the surf side.. so when you try and drift it around the gate counters the turn and causes the boat to drift straight.
But like I said, as soon as I come into neutral and crank the wheel I am on the switch to retract the gate.
Last edited by Midnightv10; 08-30-2013 at 12:03 PM.
duffy auto retract is easy with the lenco box... if you mean autoretract on neutral. It won't auto retract at speed like surfgate will if you exceed the max surf speed, and it won't autodeploy... you'd need to manually deploy it. But there's no reason you couldn't do auto-retract-on-neutral.
duffy auto retract is easy with the lenco box... if you mean autoretract on neutral. It won't auto retract at speed like surfgate will if you exceed the max surf speed, and it won't autodeploy... you'd need to manually deploy it. But there's no reason you couldn't do auto-retract-on-neutral.
full auto based on speed would be great but at a minimum, auto retract on neutral would be very worthwhile..
Up to this NSS/Surfgate era it has always been that boats with a deeper V to the transom built better surf wakes. Now with these delayed convergience devices is there a preferred hull shape? Is a flatter hull just as good if not preferred for building a surf wake with surf tabs? If so this really, really takes away the advantages of hull designs like on MB, Sanger, Tige, Centurion, etc that use deep V's. Basically if that is the case the only advantage to having a deep V boat is rough water ride.
Up to this NSS/Surfgate era it has always been that boats with a deeper V to the transom built better surf wakes. Now with these delayed convergience devices is there a preferred hull shape? Is a flatter hull just as good if not preferred for building a surf wake with surf tabs? If so this really, really takes away the advantages of hull designs like on MB, Sanger, Tige, Centurion, etc that use deep V's. Basically if that is the case the only advantage to having a deep V boat is rough water ride.
Consensus among wake snobs on the malibu crew is surfgate produces a large, easily configured, inferior wave.
Which has nothing to do with Russ's implementation on a totally different hull.
I knew I recognized that water, I have a place over there.
Awesome job man the wave looks awesome and so does the boat, I love the color scheme. You should probably just sell it to me so you can get started on your next project
You have a place on Chelan? where abouts?
we go every year for 2 weeks.. we stay at Watson's on the south shore.. cleanest clearest water I have ever seen.. hope to have a place there someday
We rent it out all summer long so unfortunately I mostly only get to use it in the spring and fall but it gets nice early and stays late so I can still do some boosting over there.
The rent seems pricey but it's private and you have your own pool. Plus it sleeps up to 14 so a couple family's can rent it together.
Nice place you have there... Rent seems reasonable or at least comparable to other properties around there, especially if you have multi families like you said..
This quesiton is for Russ or anyone else who has experience with vertical surf tabs:
- in your testing did you find that there was any reason to not fully deploy he surf tabs? That is, does it matter if there is adjustability on the tabs or can you simply move them all the way out when surfing?
It seems to me since the point is simply to divert the wake wash opposite the surf side, adjustability wouldn't be an issue. That is, once the opposite wake is diverted far enough out, you should be set. Let me know if you have any thoughts. Thanks.
Mike - I really did not mess with adjusting the tabs much and I don't think it really makes much of a difference. If anything, by only deploying them say half way, the wave wouldn't really fully develop as the water would not be diverted far enough. That does bring up a good question though. Right now when the gates are deployed they are approximately 30 degrees deflected from the hull. The question might be what would 35 degrees do to the wave?
I for one can attest to mid nights wave. I have ridden it on both sides and it rips. Lots of holes drilled but if you have the big balls you will love the wave. It's huge. It's as big as some ski areas in the midwest. Russ did a great job and it is oh so very clean.
Russ,
Thanks for the insight. I was thinking adjustability wouldn't make much difference. I'm thinking about doing a slightly different switch setup, but I have a few questions:
- I assume you have to manually use the switches to bring both tabs to the closed position? I ask because on my Tige' when I turn off the boat the TAPS closes automatically. They must be using a time delay relay or some sort.
- Also, if you hold the switch for an extended period of time does the actuator continue to try and extend the tab, or is there some sort of protection that stops it when it's fully extended?
- Last, did you through bolt or just screw into the fiberglass?
I'm considering options for a single switch with three "surf" positions, left, right and off, but I believe it's going to require some thought to get the relays correct. Thanks!
Brett - yes new project for my boat...should be fun!
@ Mike.... there are ways to get auto retract. The easiest would be to buy the lenco autoretracting switch kit and then wire retract to tie in to your neutral safety switch rather than to your ignition switch.
Russ,
Thanks for the insight. I was thinking adjustability wouldn't make much difference. I'm thinking about doing a slightly different switch setup, but I have a few questions:
- I assume you have to manually use the switches to bring both tabs to the closed position? I ask because on my Tige' when I turn off the boat the TAPS closes automatically. They must be using a time delay relay or some sort.
- Also, if you hold the switch for an extended period of time does the actuator continue to try and extend the tab, or is there some sort of protection that stops it when it's fully extended?
- Last, did you through bolt or just screw into the fiberglass?
I'm considering options for a single switch with three "surf" positions, left, right and off, but I believe it's going to require some thought to get the relays correct. Thanks!
Brett - yes new project for my boat...should be fun!
Mike - When I first started messing around with mine I was thinking I wanted some sort of automation. Actually Shawndoggy and I brainstormed and "diagramed" A LOT on this with various switches, relays, aftermarket brain boxes, etc... honestly I just got to the point whre I needed to get out on the water and quit messing with it so I just went manual for now (doesn't mean I have given up on the idea though)
Like Shawndoggy pointed out above, the Lenco kit would at least give you the ability to "auto retract" on neutral. The only problem I had with that was you have to use the Lenco switch and mainly for asthetics reasons, I wanted to use different switches.
So in the end I went with momentary "power window" switches that I could mount side by side and easily control either side or both sides to easily switch a rider from one side to the other on the fly.
The Lenco actuators go into a "free wheel" mode once the ram has either extended fully or bottomed out so there is really no risk of burning anything up or binding anything.
Both the tabs and the actuators are just screwed into the fiberglass (with 3M adhesive as well)
There really is not a whole lot of pressure on the hinges themselves. Most of the force is transferred to the actuator which would in essence "brace" the tab from the force of the water.
I like your 3 way single switch idea... keep us posted on what you come up with. Take lots of pictures
I for one can attest to mid nights wave. I have ridden it on both sides and it rips. Lots of holes drilled but if you have the big balls you will love the wave. It's huge. It's as big as some ski areas in the midwest. Russ did a great job and it is oh so very clean.
HAHA.. yeah Bill was my Guinea pig through the testing phase
Russ, I like your switch setup because it matches your trim tab control. I have Carlisle Contour IV switches in my boat and I want them to match. I'd also like the control to be brain dead simple without the potential for user error.
So, as you can tell I have an idea I'm trying to execute on. The idea would be to have an ON-OFF-ON Contour switch. One ON position would be "Left Tab Out, Right Tab In". The other ON position would be "Right Tab Out, Left Tab In". The OFF position would be "Right/Left Tabs In". Also either ON position would have light the lamp on the switch. And, when either ON is enabled the tab could only be powered for 5 seconds, just like the auto retract on the Lenco control box.
Also, I have the pin out from Lenco. Here are the 10 pins:
- DATA (gray)
- ENABLE (purple)
- CLOCK (yellow)
- LEFT DOWN (orange)
- LEFT UP (blue)
- RIGHT DOWN (brown)
- RIGHT UP (green
- SWCOM (white)
- V IN (red)
- GROUND (black)
I'm still trying to figure out the purpose for DATA, ENABLE, CLOCK and SWCOM. I'm assuming some are for the LED version because it has the same pin out, but I'm not certain. If anyone has any ideas let me know.
The control box will easily handle the OFF. When the ACC wire on the box is hooked to the switched and turned OFF, both tabs will retract. The ON positions might be more tricky, however I have found some time delay relays which would allow me to power the tabs only for 5 seconds when the switch hits either ON position: http://www.airotronics.com/site/timing_intervalon.php. If by chance the control box only allows the tabs to be controlled for 5 seconds with any usage of the switches, then the relays would not be needed and we would be golden.
If you have any thoughts let me know. If I can execute on this the operation of the tabs would be super fool proof.
Mike, have you considered something like a programmable timer that you'd use to trip a standard relay? Midnight and I each messed around with a PAC TR7 Pro (http://www.pac-audio.com/productDeta...&CategoryID=31), which is pretty affordable and can be programmed for timed outputs on up to six circuits, and it's programmed via usb from your computer. That in turn needs to hit a standard bosch 5 pin relay to pass current.
One of the problems you end up having is that the lencos are reversible, so polarity switches and relays only work one way so you need to make them cascading. It can be done but it starts to get pretty friggin complicated (I think for retract/deploy you need 6 relays if memory serves).
This is one of the diagrams Midnight and I worked on about this time last year (haha midnight, "don't make me bust out the diagrams")
I have considered similar things, but I believe leveraging the Lemco control box is the easiest way to achieve what I’m' looking for. These INTERVAL ON time delay relays are simple and essentially they just pass the power for 5 seconds, for example, then go back to normal state. That is necessary if I want to use the a single standard ON-OFF-ON rocker switch instead of multiple momentary switches like Russ has.
My idea is to leverage the Lemco Control Box, but wire in my own switches with the time delay relays between the switch and the control box. That way, it's just simulating a user holding one of the buttons for five seconds to deploy left tab out, for example, even though the switch is sending continually power as long as it’s in the ON position. With the ON-OFF-ON switch, the user must to go to OFF before going to the other side ON, which would retract the tabs back.
I have a bit more research to do, but I’ll work up a design once I confirm.
.. the other single window switch in the picture is for the wake plate..
Way to think outside the box man
Linear Mode
