TRUMP for Prez

Carson to endorse Trump. WTH? I swear this year is just completely twilight zone to me.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us...ZSAPEC3AUL6NNG

I bet Carson is angling for Vice President?

Originally Posted by pesos

Rod I expect this ridiculous email stuff from vanilla and others, but I thought you were too smart for that.

Haha, you still pissed because I proved the deficit spending by Obama is double that of the Bush administration? Glad I'm on your mind.

Then he should have endorsed Clinton or Sanders.

Originally Posted by deltahoosier

I am pretty sure Christian values are in the beginning of our country."

Above all, Washington wanted to ensure that no matter what religion you were, the Government had nothing to do with it... and it had nothing to do with the Government.


If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.
-- George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol 1. p. 495, quoted from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

Every man, conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience.
-- George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol 1. p. 495, quoted from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

He wasn't alone.


John Adams -

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, from George Seldes, The Great Quotations, also from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions ... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.
-- John Adams, letter to Dr. Price, April 8, 1785, quoted from Albert Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom (1991)

As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?
-- John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

Thomas Jefferson -

Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814, responding to the claim that Chritianity was part of the Common Law of England, as the United States Constitution defaults to the Common Law regarding matters that it does not address.

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

I know it will give great offense to the clergy, but the advocate of religious freedom is to expect neither peace nor forgiveness from them.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Levi Lincoln, 1802. ME 10:305

I could go on....

And Rich I can drag up more and more as well. The founding fathers understood the ill's of state sponsored religion like the Church of England. The Catholic Church and so on. The statement was made that the founding fathers were not Christian and that is completely false. You posting that the founding fathers wanted to keep religion out of government does not disprove that A) They were Christian B) They valued Christian Values C) They were guided by Christian values D) They wrote there documents with an understood version of who people were and how they behaved.

That is why you see many of the European countries who were ruled by Monarchs much until much later in the process (some until WW1), have forms of government that are much more restrictive. America's Constitution is much more free for the individual because America had a certain understood quality of people.

Good Christian values like owning (and poking) slaves lol.

Vanilla, on what planet do you live on? As John pointed out, you have a serious misunderstanding of either math or English, or both...

Yeap. Everyone knows all the union soldiers were atheist. Only the evil christians wanted slavery.

Sarcasm noted, Paul, but I think you miss my point about the founding fathers being slaveholders (and rapists). Wasn't saying anything about the civil war or about Christians in general, if that's what you were assuming - specifically replying to the assertion that all the founding fathers were good Christian boys (which we all know is patently false).

Originally Posted by pesos

Good Christian values like owning (and poking) slaves lol.

Vanilla, on what planet do you live on? As John pointed out, you have a serious misunderstanding of either math or English, or both...

Try this, " Google American deficit by year". Look at the deficits ran by the Bush administration then look at the deficits by the current. Here, I will rephrase it for you. I (and public record) say that the "average deficit by Obama is roughly TWICE what it was by the Bush administration. I'm not arguing "why", nor am I saying he hasn't reduced it from the initial high. It's still twice as much or more if you include first year or if you simply add all the budget deficits together. He hasn't balanced one budget since being in office. And yes, I still say he campaigned on reducing debt... What else was he talking about when he was on video blasting bush for "selling our children's futures and the fact that Bush had ran the debt up more than any other president in history"?.... oh yea, not anymore... he definitely raised the bar. It doesn't take a mathematician to read data. Don't hate me for it, I'm just reporting facts my friend.

Originally Posted by deltahoosier

And Rich I can drag up more and more as well. The founding fathers understood the ill's of state sponsored religion like the Church of England. The Catholic Church and so on. The statement was made that the founding fathers were not Christian and that is completely false. You posting that the founding fathers wanted to keep religion out of government does not disprove that A) They were Christian B) They valued Christian Values C) They were guided by Christian values D) They wrote there documents with an understood version of who people were and how they behaved.

That is why you see many of the European countries who were ruled by Monarchs much until much later in the process (some until WW1), have forms of government that are much more restrictive. America's Constitution is much more free for the individual because America had a certain understood quality of people.

I don't want to get into a semantics argument here. There was no central religious view that all of the founding fathers held. Some were very secretive about their beliefs. Some were Deists. Jefferson, in fact, openly rejected the doctrines that Jesus was the promised Messiah and the incarnate Son of God... as did many at the time. Their "values" certainly guided them. But values change as the times change. Slavery is a perfect example of that. However, when specific religious connotations are applied, those values are much more rigid and unyielding. Gay Marriage is a perfect example of that.

The founding fathers were insistent that our laws and our constitution could change as society changes... and should not be bound by the confines of any particular religion.

Agreed Rich, however when you have document as free as the constitution, it allows for people to drive you off a cliff. It took certain character to be able to have open discussion and frame the laws the way they did. The frame in which I put this, is many leftist want to say that the founding fathers were "too smart to be religious", which is completely false. Franklin was a deists as well. They all believed in some high power though. Because they were Christian or deists, they had a way of carrying themselves properly. That is why we have rights like free speech. Europe, not so much. You can be brought up on charges for "hate" speech.

Yep. They had slaves Wes. So what? Everyone had them and had them all over the world. The British sold Irish people by the thousands and so on. Not all slaves were whipped and chained either. I don't condone that behavior of slavery, it is just the facts. Slavery still happens today all over the middle east (of course we need more of those folks rolling in here). Point is, it took good Christian minded people to say no more (and I am sure there were some not so Christian minded people to say no more as well.)

Believing in a god does not make you religious. Religion and god have nothing to do with each other. I am a Deist and would definitely consider myself NON religious. Religion involves a structure in which a group of people share their particular belief in who God is and what God wants. A Deist typically believes that God is beyond the understanding of simpletons (aka humans or Earthlings) and rejects those who try to impose their "understanding" on others. I said the founding fathers were not Christians and most of them weren't. I never said they didn't believe in God and as Wes said, they certainly weren't infallible. They did write one hell of a beautiful document though when the U.S. Constitution was created. Christians used to believe in the document because it guaranteed that they would always be able to practice their religion. Then they got a taste of power when Reagan and Bush gave them an unconstitutional amount of power. Now it's not good enough that they practice their own religion. Now they won't be happy until they have forced me and my children to accept Jesus Christ as well through the rule of law.

Slavery was taught in Christian churches. The bible was used to justify slavery to slaves. The KKK was born inside Christian churches. Don't tell me that it took Christians to end slavery. It took good people to end slavery. In my experience, most of the good people don't go to church. Religion has been used to justify way too many atrocities. Delta wants to use it to justify killing Muslims.

+1

If nothing else slavery is good evidence that Christians who think they have a personal relationship with God and are guided by God.... aren't.

Eric. You had a pretty decent write up going until you let BS take hold. You ever realize that every one of your posts end with you being a victim or attributing some outlandish assertion against the person you are addressing. I actually respect most the way you put together most of your points.

Christians forcing you into a religion? I am trying to justify killing Muslims? They do that quite well on their own. I **** my pant and rape my wife? What is with you. Do you have some sort of emotional break down at the end of your points? Can't take personal responsibility so you have to project?

Reagan and Bush had nothing to do with anything religion. If anything Nancy Reagan believed in the occult. What law did Reagan or Bush pass that gave this mythical power to Christians? You mean that Christians were not allowed to be attacked by the left during their presidency then I will buy that.

You are correct, believing in God does not make you religious. I am consider myself non religious and have issue with most organized religions especially catholicism and islam.

I provided a link that had quotes of the founding fathers and their faith. I would say most where Christian and all believed in God of some sort guiding them.

Where did anyone ever said that Christians claim to be infallible? That is a 'you' issue. Only "Christian" to claim infallibility is the Pope as claimed in the Vatican 1 and 2 and the council of Trent. Actual Jesus believing Christians absolutely believe in their shortcomings. That is the whole point.

Please provide a link of slavery being taught in churches. Good gravey man. Slavery was the way for thousands of years. It sucked. It still sucks today considering it still happens to this day.

There is the whole religion is used to justify atrocities red herring. I give you that catholics and islam have been going at it for thousands of years. You want to know what was used as justification to kill 100 times as many people in history? Centralized Government.

Wes....Is that a plus one for me wanting to use religion to kill muslims? I thought you are better than that.

John, I can agree to that. That is why a real preacher will implore you to read the bible yourself instead of listening to someone preach. Many people led astray by a power hungry person.

Also, the KKK was born in the democrat party if you want to talk facts.

Originally Posted by deltahoosier

Also, the KKK was born in the democrat party if you want to talk facts.

You know the "democratic" party was the conservative party back then, right? The platforms of the two parties has essentially flipped since that time.

Rod, no the +1 was for the other post. Sorry I seem to be getting some of the emails out of order.

Re KKK I know that you know that the old Democratic Party of the south has noting to do with today's party, just as the hot mess that is today's GOP has little in common with Lincoln's party. In fact in many ways it's only because the GOP has become so ridiculous that the democrats are palatable.

I will say you are wrong on one point of history - there were countless churches that were explicitly pro-slavery and actively used the bible to condone and justify it. Simply a historical fact - not at all surprising given the kinds of hypocrisy you see still coming out of religious institutions these days (like that nutjob pastor in Harlem).

I also find it interesting that you can take the quotes you do and conclude that the founding fathers were Christian. By your logic Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, George HW Bush, Bill Clinton and more are also devout Christians. Personally I don't think any of them are. The last person anywhere near the Oval Office that id consider anything close to a bible believing Christian who actually lives their life according to those principles is Carter.

Originally Posted by pesos

I will say you are wrong on one point of history - there were countless churches that were explicitly pro-slavery and actively used the bible to condone and justify it. Simply a historical fact - not at all surprising given the kinds of hypocrisy you see still coming out of religious institutions these days (like that nutjob pastor in Harlem).

It's one of the things that angers me the most regarding religion and/or churches in this country... they don't pay taxes, and yet they can preach politics from the pulpit and throw money into the political arena to forward their beliefs. Gross.

It's astounding that people still honestly believe that if you don't believe in the Christian god, you can't have any morals and vice versa. Any religion is nothing more than a money-grab. Take away the money and see how much church leaders care about your eternal fate. But church leaders know that there's a sucker born every minute.

I will have to concede the point of the churches in the old days could have preached pro-slavery idea in the day. We have black religious leaders preaching to kill white people so I am sure we had other idiot types in the name of God saying stupid things through time.

I purposely plugged in to the democrats as KKK. The democrats are racists and the parties never switched. People like to point to the 1964 Civil Right Act as the turning point. Eighty percent of Republicans in the House voted aye, as against 61 percent of Democrats. In the Senate, 82 percent of Republicans favored the law, but only 69 percent of Democrats. Among the Democrats voting nay were Albert Gore Sr., Robert Byrd, and J. William Fulbright. The Republican presidential candidate in 1964 also opposed the Civil Rights Act. Barry Goldwater had been an enthusiastic backer of the 1957 and 1960 civil rights acts (both overwhelmingly opposed by Democrats). He was a founding member of the Arizona chapter of the NAACP. He hired many blacks in his family business and pushed to desegregate the Arizona National Guard. He had a good-faith objection to some features of the 1964 act, which he regarded as unconstitutional.

People want to point to Lyndon Johnson who helped usher in the Civil Rights Act as the switch from the racist democrats. Could not be further from the truth.

“I’ll have those ni**ers voting Democratic for the next 200 years.” Lyndon Baines Johnson about the Great Society plan.

Johnson was a racist. He talked about ni***ers a lot. It is widely known.

Goldwater was no racist. The same cannot be said of Fulbright, on whom Bill Clinton bestowed the Medal of Freedom. Fulbright was one of the 19 senators who signed the “Southern manifesto” defending segregation. Okay, but didn’t all the old segregationist senators leave the Democratic party and become Republicans after 1964? No, just one did: Strom Thurmond. The rest remained in the Democratic party — including former Klansman Robert Byrd, who became president pro tempore of the Senate.


The deep racists south never changed. What you saw that changed was the bigger city areas with businesses and they started changing around the cold war business climate.

Both parties are not perfect in race relations but the parties never really changed on race. The Republicans used to be more liberal minded regarding big government when they were using government to help business and more conservative regarding government when government was too much in the way of business.

Rich. Go ahead and tax the churches. Now you do not have a separation of church and state and churches should have the right to put what ever religious mater in schools and public government owned spaces.

Jeremy. No one believes that you have to believe in the Christian God to have morals. We could have grown up believing that you should kill yourself in response to being shamed, kill others because they disrespected you. History is filled with ends justify the means societies and they still exist today. Our current tame society is based on something. Our founding fathers spoke fondly of God and a high power guiding them. That is the point.

Wes. I know just because the founding fathers spoke of God and Jesus, it does not make them Christians. There is a better chance that they were unlike many on this forum how clearly speak anti christian and anti god beliefs. I think I have more support for my idea on it then you guys do.

So were the protestors at the Trump rallies organized and paid by the Democratic party or Republican party?

"Johnson was a racist. He talked about ni***ers a lot. It is widely known."

LBJ was also a murderer. Sent 10's of thousands of Americans to die in a war of no strategic significance to the US. Hubert Humphrey was the guy who really put the civil rights act together. LBJ did support it, but most likely because it was politically expedient for him. I have no love for LBJ and consider him among the worst Presidents in US history. Right along with Richard Nixon and George Bush.

Rubio wins Washington, tells me who the establishment wants as their man.

As far as dirubtions at Trump rally's. You only need to go look at websights like moveon.org and blackliesmatter to see who is behind the disrubptions. I don't get it. You don't like TRUMP and you don't like his message then go after him at the Polls. Why do they need to invade

That looks like the face of the protestor who jumped up to go after trump in Ohio.

I wondered if at first Trump paid for disruptors. Then Moveon took credit.

Now I wonder, who are the fascists?

Do you think if Trump picked Carson as VP that the RNC could stomach him much better

Originally Posted by deltahoosier

Jeremy. No one believes that you have to believe in the Christian God to have morals. We could have grown up believing that you should kill yourself in response to being shamed, kill others because they disrespected you. History is filled with ends justify the means societies and they still exist today. Our current tame society is based on something. Our founding fathers spoke fondly of God and a high power guiding them. That is the point.

What exactly is that "something", Delta? The Bible? The teachings of Jesus? It doesn't take me believing in God, believing some religious book, or the US Constitution for me to understand that I shouldn't treat other people badly. And I don't expect some sort of eternal afterlife payment for being a nice person. Our society is not "tame" because the founding fathers believed in some sort of higher power.

"History is filled with ends justify the means societies and they still exist today."

I can't think of anywhere the "ends justify the means" more than in politics. No lie is unacceptable if it's in the line of duty. So yeah they exist. They exist right here in the US.

If people like Grant hate the Republican establishment so much, then why have they been voting for Republicans for so long? The irony is that, hating the GOP puppets that tow the party line, Grant is elated that in this election he won't have to vote for the puppet. He's going to vote for one of the puppet masters. Why would you expect something different from a puppet master than the puppets he's been controlling for years? It just eliminates the middle man. Of course the middle man is the one that can't go too far serving his big money donor masters because he has to worry about getting re-elected by common people. Trump has let us know clearly that he'll go straight off the deep end serving his own and other rich people's interests without any care at all.

Eric: for the record I dislike both sides of the isle. I dislike the business as usual do nothing and get a handsome reward for it the status quo that we currently have. I dislike the lack of common sence in Politics with no end in sight, Now who is exactly responsible for it all? And why do we keep voting for the same type of politicians that put us in the situation we are currently in and think that they are some how going to turn things around. Eric a direct question. please tell us what current candidate you think can turn things around?

"If people like Grant hate the Republican establishment so much, then why have they been voting for Republicans for so long?"

For the very reason I keep stating all along. Politics is a war of ideology. It's not about the individual. The individual can lie, cheat, and steal. But if their ideology is is on the right side of the divide, then they can get the vote.

"And why do we keep voting for the same type of politicians that put us in the situation we are currently in..."

Because instead of telling politicians what we want them to do, we ask them what they are going to do. Until Americans understand the problems, can speak towards addressing them, and tell the politicians to focus on the issues, then it will be status quo. It will require Americans to think for themselves instead of being told what the issues are by the media and politicians. Not likely to happen.

Jeremy,

You may not be religious but you are reaping the fruits of that labor. Let's say you are under muslim rule right now. How do you think that would be going for you and your belief system? Whether you are religious of believe in nothing, you are shaped by societal norms. Just think, you would easily be in the chanting crowd as they behead people if you did not have a moral compass.

John,

I agree politics is ends justify the means. It could be worse though. I could transition to bloodshed in a heartbeat. All it takes is a continuation of one side pushing the boundaries of the other and it can set it off.

Be careful advocating people thinking for themselves. They may come to the conclusion that a centralized government with broad sweeping laws that don't do many individuals any good is useless.

I'm not religious but I have to agree with Delta 100%. what other system is advocating the basic rules of life. Rules that Christian religion deals out. Again I'm not religious. But I don't see how teaching or following (how ever strictly or loosely you decide to follow) can be a bad thing. Although I think religion should not be shoved down ones throat. Politics should steer clear of it. I have never met a person that has a slight religious or spiritual vibe running threw them that I find offensive. My 2c

I agree. Religion and politics should not mix.

Also above. Should read "It" could transition into bloodshed in a heartbeat.

Originally Posted by fly135

Because instead of telling politicians what we want them to do, we ask them what they are going to do. Until Americans understand the problems, can speak towards addressing them, and tell the politicians to focus on the issues, then it will be status quo. It will require Americans to think for themselves instead of being told what the issues are by the media and politicians. Not likely to happen.

I wrote a congressman once (that I voted for) regarding an issue that I felt was important and expressed my concerns on the way he was voting on that issue. I got a letter back basically telling me that he had evaluated the situation and was voting the way that he felt was in the best interest and thank you for the concern. I was soooo pizzed off! Really, the way "he felt"? What about your constituents? He could have just lied and said that he had a lot of feedback from the citizens to vote the way he was and I would have been fine but that's not what he said.

Originally Posted by deltahoosier

Jeremy,

You may not be religious but you are reaping the fruits of that labor. Let's say you are under muslim rule right now. How do you think that would be going for you and your belief system? Whether you are religious of believe in nothing, you are shaped by societal norms. Just think, you would easily be in the chanting crowd as they behead people if you did not have a moral compass.

What "labor"? The founders of this nation did not create all of these new laws based on biblical scripture. It's not like they started from scratch. Many of the laws were brought over from England. The idea of having an elected president is not biblical. Civilized societies have been following basic laws for thousands of years now; long before the bible was ever penned.

"Just think, you would easily be in the chanting crowd as they behead people if you did not have a moral compass."

Are we still talking about religion or are we back to Trump now?

" I was soooo pizzed off! Really, the way "he felt"? What about your constituents?"

Notice the plural on "constituents"? Unfortunately you are singular.

"Be careful advocating people thinking for themselves."

Yeah, apparently that's what God tells his people too.

"what other system is advocating the basic rules of life."

The secular system.

Whatever the case may be, Trump adds an interesting prospective to the election process. I wouldn't want to go up against him. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/tru...dog-2016-03-16

I think I was speaking about Bernie Sanders voters, John. They are little fascists waiting for a sacrifice. Well played on your part.

We may have to some laws from England, however England to this day swears an oath to uphold the Church of England in government. We were influenced heavily by France for our government.

Basically, you are trying to tell me that the Founding fathers (against their own words on the subject) were able to with stand over a thousand years of Christian (Catholic) influence in Europe and North Africa and claim themselves clean of Christian influence? The Romans did not do it after 300 AD. The Francs could not do it even though they started as pagans. The fall of the Roman empire did not get rid of the Christian Influence. England had the Church of England and still does to this day that is based on the Christian Religion. All these civilizations for over 1400 years at the time were influenced by Christainity.

If you want further proof. Look at all the individual states constitutions:

http://www.stopthereligiousright.org/constitution3.htm

1776 DELAWARE STATE CONSTITUTION

"Every person who shall be chosen a member of either House, or appointed to any office or place of trust, before taking his seat, or entering upon the execution of his office, shall take the following oath, or affirmation, if conscientiously scrupulous of taking an oath, to wit: I _____, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, One God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old Testament and New Testament to be given by Divine Inspiration".

1776: NEW JERSEY CONSTITUTION

"That there shall be no establishment of any one religious sect in this Province, in preference to another; and that no Protestant inhabitant of this Colony shall be denied the enjoyment of any civil right, merely on account of his religious principles; but that all persons, professing a belief in the faith of any Protestant sect. who shall demean themselves peaceably under the government, as hereby established, shall be capable of being elected into any office of profit or trust, or being a member of either branch of the Legislature, and shall fully and freely enjoy every privilege and immunity, enjoyed by others their fellow subjects."

1776 MARYLAND CONSTITUTION

"That no other test or qualification ought to be required, on admission to any office of trust or profit, than such oath of support and fidelity to this State, and such oath of office, as shall be directed by this Convention or the Legislature of this State, and a declaration of a belief in the Christian religion."

1776 PENNSYLVANIA CONSTITUTION

"And each member, before he takes his seat, shall make and subscribe the following:"

"I do believe in one God, the creator and governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good and punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine inspiration."

"And no further or other religious test shall ever hereafter be required of any civil officer or magistrate in this State."

1776 NORTH CAROLINA CONSTITUTION

"That no person, who shall deny the being of God or the truth of the Protestant religion, or the divine authority either of the Old or New Testaments, or who shall hold religious principles incompatible with the freedom and safety of the State, shall be capable of holding any office or place of trust or profit in the civil department within this State."

1776 VIRGINIA CONSTITUTION

"That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other.

..........By our own act of assembly of 1705, c. 30, if a person brought up in the Christian religion denies the being of a God, or the Trinity, or asserts there are more Gods than one, or denies the Christian religion to be true, or the scriptures to be of divine authority, he is punishable on the first offense by incapacity to hold any office or employment ecclesiastical, civil, or military; on the second by disability to sue, to take any gift or legacy, to be guardian, executor, or administrator, and by three years imprisonment, without bail. A father's right to the custody of his own children being founded in law on his right of guardianship, this being taken away, they may of course be severed from him, and put, by the authority of a court, into more orthodox hands."

1777 GEORGIA CONSTITUTION

"All persons whatever shall have the free exercise of their religion; provided it be not repugnant to the peace and safety of the State; and shall not, unless by consent, support any teacher or teachers except those of their own profession."


I think you get the point. All the States had sections in their constitutions that affirmed their belief in God and Christianity. If all the states did, then I am pretty sure the framers of the constitution had similar influences considering the state representatives would have had a say in a unifying document.

Mostly they wanted to preserve the Christians right to worship not allow for a state run anti Christian/ religious government like that of the ex Soviet Union and so on.

When Donald Trump first announced his intentions to run for the Republican nomination I didn't really take him seriously. I really didn't think he would get any support if people did just a little research. Well I was off on that estimate. I can say the same for Barak Obama, Noone who researched him just a little could consider him a real contender but hope and change is what everyone was looking for. As much as all of us don't want to admit it Trumps message of making us winners and not taking a backseat to other countries has worked so far. Personally I don't care for or trust Trumps motives. As I see it he's only loyal to money.The way it looks the people of the United States of America ( how ironic to call us united) are as divided as we have ever been. As it looks currently either Trump or Clinton will be responsible for America's final nail in the coffin. It's a no win situation because as a nation we can't seem to come together for a common cause much less agree on one.As for me i'm set for life. I have God in my life so I realize my time on earth is short and I won't have earthly possessions to take with me into eternity. A spirit filled heart to disciple as God directs me will help me become all that God and my desire to please God will allow me to be. As for the next president you guys can "discuss" it all you want. It won't change the outcome whether it be good or bad by your definition.God has a plan for us all. Only you can choose to accept or reject it. Carry on with your discussion.

I'm 100% on board with divided/separated thing. It's nuts & I need to go no further than my FB feed. The chit I see people forward, feed into, bla..bla...bla is nuts. Something forwarded by a "friend" was obviously BS and I just gave a rebuttal & ask why, he said "I don't care."

It is really interesting, the dumbing down of America via talk radio and social media... If someone says it, if it's on the Internet, it's "News", it's "Real" & it's "True".

It's funny or scary, I don't know. What I do know, it's getting worse. These cats keep going further apart to appease the masses, not caring what is reasonable. "If I support the other side in anything, my voting record is going to be used against me." The spin is hard on them in reelection & that's their profession....so?

^^^Profetic words. The only thing I would add is the book of Revelations tells "the rest of the story" for anyone who hears. We can sweat it all we want here. We aren't changing a single thing about the history which has already been written. Doesn't matter who wins any election. Ever... Romans 13:1,2.

I meant the ^^^ for Robert's post.

Originally Posted by deltahoosier

I think I was speaking about Bernie Sanders voters, John. They are little fascists waiting for a sacrifice. Well played on your part.

We may have to some laws from England, however England to this day swears an oath to uphold the Church of England in government. We were influenced heavily by France for our government.

Basically, you are trying to tell me that the Founding fathers (against their own words on the subject) were able to with stand over a thousand years of Christian (Catholic) influence in Europe and North Africa and claim themselves clean of Christian influence? The Romans did not do it after 300 AD. The Francs could not do it even though they started as pagans. The fall of the Roman empire did not get rid of the Christian Influence. England had the Church of England and still does to this day that is based on the Christian Religion. All these civilizations for over 1400 years at the time were influenced by Christainity.

If you want further proof. Look at all the individual states constitutions:

I think you get the point. All the States had sections in their constitutions that affirmed their belief in God and Christianity. If all the states did, then I am pretty sure the framers of the constitution had similar influences considering the state representatives would have had a say in a unifying document.

Mostly they wanted to preserve the Christians right to worship not allow for a state run anti Christian/ religious government like that of the ex Soviet Union and so on.

No, I don't get the "point". I would say all of the state religious mandates you have listed are null and void by the US Constitution. I know here in TN, there is a similar Judaeo-Christian mandate for anyone running for state office in the state constitution. It's not enforceable. If your "point" held even an ounce of logical thinking, you should be asking yourself, "Why is there no Christian reference in the Constitution". And YES, they did "want to preserve the Christian's right to worship", but they also wanted to "preserve any religion's right to worship or any individual's right not to worship at all". For you to insist that the framers were giving Christianity any sort of preference means you understand little when it comes to the history of this nation or that you are very selective when it comes to examining the historical evidence.

You call it "Christian influence" when the fact is, this "influence" has existed long before Christ was born. As mankind has become more advanced, so did their laws, it's evidenced today. The world did not suddenly become lawful because Christianity became more popular among the human race. "Gods" have been used throughout history to explain the unexplainable and to give people some comfort that their good deeds will be rewarded with some sort of eternal life.

"You call it "Christian influence" when the fact is, this "influence" has existed long before Christ was born."

Six of the ten commandments are secular values. It's only the religious who are ignorant enough to not see that.

"As it looks currently either Trump or Clinton will be responsible for America's final nail in the coffin."

OK, I can see why you say that about Trump. He's a loose cannon and nobody really knows what he would do as President. But Hillary? She's nothing more than status quo. Saying she's the final nail in the coffin is like saying that doing the same old thing we've always been doing is the final nail.

"It's a no win situation because as a nation we can't seem to come together for a common cause much less agree on one."

OK, so it us who are the final nail.

"The only thing I would add is the book of Revelations tells "the rest of the story" for anyone who hears."

Let me guess... You are Pentecostal?

Nope. Just a mere believer.

Sometimes I wonder if the guys who wrote the original books of the bible, before it was assembled, actually had the delusions of grandeur to think they were prophets or if the people assembling the books just chose them as "prophets" later when they determined that what they had written fit into their idea of what would be best to control the poor and the gullible.

The people who wrote the bible were way out of line with the power structures of the society at the time. That is why many of them were murdered by the state.

Jeremy,

I understand perfectly how our country was founded. The fact the founding fathers had to address religious freedom says all you can about their belief system. You don't address something unless you think it is important and it was very important to them. They also saw what state ran institutions did in the name of God and wanted to protect the people from things like the catholic church who went around murdering people in the early years because they would not convert.

Look at Rome pre Christ. Paganism, sacrifice, incest, and so on. Religion was a contract basically between the people and the state. It was a source of power over the people. Christianity (despite the catholic church) was revolutionary that you did not need the state to gain salvation. It meant that people did not have to look to a centralized government either. That was extremely dangerous to the power elites. That is why they had to kill Jesus. To silence him. It did the opposite.

Fast forward to modern time with communist regimes. Places like the old Soviet Union realized they had to remove religion in order to bring back the bond between the people and the state. The founding fathers knew this. They knew history probably better than we do. They understood this. They saw governments come and go through history. Christians know that the first thing that gets wiped out is your religion when the state wants to be the power. That is why the founding fathers used their Christian values when framing the Constitution. They wanted to preserve that. You in your lifetime have seen that right wiped out by other governments. We have a very vocal left in this country who would gladly sacrifice that right with the pull of a ballot lever.

^^^booooom!!!

Originally Posted by markj

^^^booooom!!!

Are you a teenager or something? Or do you just ignore history because it lines up with your religious beliefs?

How many years before we have another Civil War in this country?

Originally Posted by deltahoosier

The people who wrote the bible were way out of line with the power structures of the society at the time. That is why many of them were murdered by the state.

Jeremy,

I understand perfectly how our country was founded. The fact the founding fathers had to address religious freedom says all you can about their belief system. You don't address something unless you think it is important and it was very important to them. They also saw what state ran institutions did in the name of God and wanted to protect the people from things like the catholic church who went around murdering people in the early years because they would not convert.

Look at Rome pre Christ. Paganism, sacrifice, incest, and so on. Religion was a contract basically between the people and the state. It was a source of power over the people. Christianity (despite the catholic church) was revolutionary that you did not need the state to gain salvation. It meant that people did not have to look to a centralized government either. That was extremely dangerous to the power elites. That is why they had to kill Jesus. To silence him. It did the opposite.

Fast forward to modern time with communist regimes. Places like the old Soviet Union realized they had to remove religion in order to bring back the bond between the people and the state. The founding fathers knew this. They knew history probably better than we do. They understood this. They saw governments come and go through history. Christians know that the first thing that gets wiped out is your religion when the state wants to be the power. That is why the founding fathers used their Christian values when framing the Constitution. They wanted to preserve that. You in your lifetime have seen that right wiped out by other governments. We have a very vocal left in this country who would gladly sacrifice that right with the pull of a ballot lever.

Where are the "Christian values" that were used to "frame the Constitution"? Please point them out. There was and never has been any preference given towards Christianity as opposed to other religions.

The rest of your post is your belief that you can read the mind of the founding fathers, yet there is no evidence that supports your hypothesis. The basic point that you are missing is they didn't want the government involved in the business of religion, at all.

Originally Posted by DenverRider

Sometimes I wonder if the guys who wrote the original books of the bible, before it was assembled, actually had the delusions of grandeur to think they were prophets or if the people assembling the books just chose them as "prophets" later when they determined that what they had written fit into their idea of what would be best to control the poor and the gullible.

No, they used bits and pieces of other writings to form the perfect book of religious beliefs. Too bad they didn't think of all of the contradictions that they created when they mismatched certain elements.

Yes Jeremy. It is because of their religious beliefs that they did not want it part of the government. It is also because of their religious beliefs that they made sure to preserve it. If they did not have deep seeded beliefs, they would not have protected those beliefs. They simply would have deferred to the government as did every other country on earth at the time.

If you are setting up a representative government with it's seeds in democracy, they knew that your religion is just a vote away from being abolished. They knew because of the religious persecution that they (and their forefathers) went through that they needed to preserve certain rights and keep government from being able to gain power over their religion. If you keep religion out of the government, then you absolutely have no chance of the people voting your ability to worship away from you. That is why they were so awesome. Because of their beliefs and the history of their beliefs that they needed to make it the way they did and they were spot on.

"Too bad they didn't think of all of the contradictions...."

It's hard to build upon and sustain a lie. Eventually they collapse under their own weight.

- God loves his creation, but he killed them all at one point.
- God is omniscient and the creator, but even though he knew what we would do after he created us somehow we have "free will".
- There is only one God and he guides his followers, but there are many religions with different beliefs.
- God cannot be in the presence of sin, but he created sin.
- God is omnipotent and he created Satan, who he gave great power over mankind yet was too dumb the know the definition of omnipotent.

^^^Wow. Just wow. You're in bad shape. It's crystal clear that you and Jeremy haven't understood anything about the Bible or what it really says.

Actually I'm in really good shape. Didn't know the Bible talked about staying fit. But there are other sources for that information.

Originally Posted by deltahoosier

Yes Jeremy. It is because of their religious beliefs that they did not want it part of the government. It is also because of their religious beliefs that they made sure to preserve it. If they did not have deep seeded beliefs, they would not have protected those beliefs. They simply would have deferred to the government as did every other country on earth at the time.

If you are setting up a representative government with it's seeds in democracy, they knew that your religion is just a vote away from being abolished. They knew because of the religious persecution that they (and their forefathers) went through that they needed to preserve certain rights and keep government from being able to gain power over their religion. If you keep religion out of the government, then you absolutely have no chance of the people voting your ability to worship away from you. That is why they were so awesome. Because of their beliefs and the history of their beliefs that they needed to make it the way they did and they were spot on.

That is purely speculative and you know it. You are really stretching and I refuse to debate someone with facts when they are using their personal beliefs to counter your argument. And they weren't protecting their "beliefs", they were protecting the beliefs and non-beliefs of all Americans. They were against monarchies and state-established churches. They had absolutely no desire to promote the Christian faith or give it any sort of preferential treatment over any other religion.

John, Now you are just moving the goal posts and being crabby......

Jeremy, They were absolutely against state established religion because state established religion was not there religion.

It is pretty clear with the factual account of the state constitutions that the people of those states were A) Religious B) believed in some sort of Christianity

Those states went on to form the country and write the constitution.

I did not say they were promoting only the Christian faith. I said they were Christians (or at a minimum deists) who used their faith to guide them in preserving religious rights and freedoms. That is a different statement than they only envisioned Christianity under only Christian law. With that said, if Christian's and deists created the rights under the law, they sure as heck did not use Islam. I have yet to read about our founding father the atheist. I never heard of Paul the Buddist Monk. Lou the Satanist. Fred the rastafarian that wrote the constitution.

Obviously you guys haven't studied the bible or even comprehended what you read. If you actually read the whole bible. I'm now taking classes in Apoligetics. You can go on the Internet and find plenty of information on both sides of the fence. Unfortunately for all you guys who know the Bible isn't true, scientists are proving it not only is true but very accurate. Scientists are also easily disproving Darwins theory and the big bang theory. But I should understand why you can't wrap your minds around this. The same reason you believed Global Cooling,Global Warming both disproved by scientists . Now the latest scam Climate Change. It's been changing for thousands of years. Some people are so gullible the believe whatever the media pumps out all the while the Government is taking away our freedom and taxing us and buying more votes from their slaves. Like I said earlier either candidate will be the final nail in the coffin. I guess you guys think status quo is warm and cozy. I think we''re on the fast track to financial collapse. Wait, didn't the Bible predict that too. You would know if you read it.

Originally Posted by deltahoosier

Jeremy, They were absolutely against state established religion because state established religion was not there religion.

It is pretty clear with the factual account of the state constitutions that the people of those states were A) Religious B) believed in some sort of Christianity

Those states went on to form the country and write the constitution.

I did not say they were promoting only the Christian faith. I said they were Christians (or at a minimum deists) who used their faith to guide them in preserving religious rights and freedoms. That is a different statement than they only envisioned Christianity under only Christian law. With that said, if Christian's and deists created the rights under the law, they sure as heck did not use Islam. I have yet to read about our founding father the atheist. I never heard of Paul the Buddist Monk. Lou the Satanist. Fred the rastafarian that wrote the constitution.

I love how you try to categorize Deists as Christians. Deists do not believe in the tales told by the bible.

I guess you have never heard of a man named Thomas Paine. This is what he said about Christianity and other religions:

"The opinions I have advanced ... are the effect of the most clear and long-established conviction that the Bible and the Testament are impositions upon the world, that the fall of man, the account of Jesus Christ being the Son of God, and of his dying to appease the wrath of God, and of salvation, by that strange means, are all fabulous inventions"

And a quote I agree with wholeheartedly:

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

And I guess Thomas Jefferson penning his own bible was a Christian thing to do.

Originally Posted by cwb4me

Obviously you guys haven't studied the bible or even comprehended what you read. If you actually read the whole bible. I'm now taking classes in Apoligetics. You can go on the Internet and find plenty of information on both sides of the fence. Unfortunately for all you guys who know the Bible isn't true, scientists are proving it not only is true but very accurate. Scientists are also easily disproving Darwins theory and the big bang theory. But I should understand why you can't wrap your minds around this. The same reason you believed Global Cooling,Global Warming both disproved by scientists . Now the latest scam Climate Change. It's been changing for thousands of years. Some people are so gullible the believe whatever the media pumps out all the while the Government is taking away our freedom and taxing us and buying more votes from their slaves. Like I said earlier either candidate will be the final nail in the coffin. I guess you guys think status quo is warm and cozy. I think we''re on the fast track to financial collapse. Wait, didn't the Bible predict that too. You would know if you read it.

There isn't one credible scientist that claims humans lived for hundreds of years as the bible claims. Simple math will tell you that the story of Noah is impossible. Nothing about Darwin's theory has been "disproven" and the Big Bang Theory is easily more verifiable than some guy snapping his finger and creating a universe. Why do you think religious leaders start panicking when something like the CERN hadron collider is put into operation? Science is on the brink of having a concrete explanation of our beginnings and how the universe was created. Of course, scientists are then accused of having an agenda (as if religious leaders don't) or they're atheist so their PhD in Quantum Physics and their post-doctoral work is nothing compared to a guy that could barely pass high school that received his degree in theology from an online program.

And I have read the bible a few times. Anyone that is not scared into going to hell for not believing or that looks at it from an objective viewpoint can come to the conclusion that it was inspired, and much of it borrowed, from earlier ancient writings.

Obviously you guys haven't studied the bible or even comprehended what you read.

Hmm, not true on either count.

If you actually read the whole bible.

This is not a sentence.

I'm now taking classes in Apoligetics.

Have they gotten to the part where you learn how to spell apologetics yet?

You can go on the Internet and find plenty of information on both sides of the fence.

Yay for the interwebs!

Unfortunately for all you guys who know the Bible isn't true, scientists are proving it not only is true but very accurate.

You're cute.

Scientists are also easily disproving Darwins theory and the big bang theory.

Tell me more!

But I should understand why you can't wrap your minds around this.

You should? I should wrap my head around what this sentence means, but I just can't.

The same reason you believed Global Cooling,Global Warming both disproved by scientists.

These sentences keep getting better.

Now the latest scam Climate Change.

This is also not a sentence.

It's been changing for thousands of years.

True!

Some people are so gullible the believe whatever the media pumps out all the while the Government is taking away our freedom and taxing us and buying more votes from their slaves.

I knew a fully formed sentence was coming - I knew it!

Like I said earlier either candidate will be the final nail in the coffin.

This is why people think you are crazy.

I guess you guys think status quo is warm and cozy.

Not at all.

I think we''re on the fast track to financial collapse.

Sure hope not, but you may be right.

Wait, didn't the Bible predict that too.

Nope.

You would know if you read it.

Sigh.

I see the resident wakeworld atheists are out in full force now. John, Jeremy and Wes; (and anyone else reading) you need to know; John 3:16, 1 John 1:9 and Romans 14:10-12. (Those are just for starters. It gets even better). It's definitely your choice to believe or not while you're still breathing here on earth. After that, everyone will believe, but it will be too late. Once you've taken the big dirt nap, there are no do-overs. You made your choice. Choose wisely, my friends.

And to whomever said the Bible contradicts itself, you simply just don't understand what you've read or you positively don't understand the context of what you read. Spend a little more time reading it in context before you make that comment because there is not one single contradiction in the entire canon. Not one. It's infallible.

Mark, surely you jest.

Just take the nativity stories for example - they completely contradict each other. This is, of course, to be expected when people write about events 70-90 years after they happen (and the events happened 30 years before anyone ever paid any attention to Jesus)...

Originally Posted by markj

I see the resident wakeworld atheists are out in full force now. John, Jeremy and Wes; (and anyone else reading) you need to know; John 3:16, 1 John 1:9 and Romans 14:10-12. (Those are just for starters. It gets even better). It's definitely your choice to believe or not while you're still breathing here on earth. After that, everyone will believe, but it will be too late. Once you've taken the big dirt nap, there are no do-overs. You made your choice. Choose wisely, my friends.

And to whomever said the Bible contradicts itself, you simply just don't understand what you've read or you positively don't understand the context of what you read. Spend a little more time reading it in context before you make that comment because there is not one single contradiction in the entire canon. Not one. It's infallible.

I'm not going to go down this road of debating religion any further, you are free to believe how ever you choose to do so. I'm not worried about my eternal life. Even if this God person exists and I am asked why I was a non-believer, I will ask why he gave me a mind to think for myself. I will then ask him why I was to believe the words of a few men that was placed into book and translated 100's of times. I would ask him why he allows children to starve to death or why he didn't stop cancer. I would end the conversation by asking him, if a man is born in a third-world nation and never hears about this Christian God, why should they be punished with eternal damnation for simply being born in the wrong section of the planet.

As far as contradictions, it's funny you mention John as one of your verses I should read (and I have read it) but how about this one:

Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend."

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."

As far as the bible being "infallible", this would mean that man (the ones that wrote the bible) would have to be "infallible" (since God didn't simply drop a bible down from heaven). Isn't that a contradiction in itself?

This thread sure has gone down a different path; can't we get back to why Trump should or should not be president?

"Once you've taken the big dirt nap, there are no do-overs."

Yep, there is no reason for a do over. I'll be sitting in heaven because hell will be filled with so many conservative christians (an oxymoron like jumbo shrimp) there won't be any room for compassionate liberals.

Wes, on the contrary. The nativity stories actually compliment each other. You would know this if you actually read and understood what you were reading.

Jeremy, first off, God spoke to Moses in the form of a cloud pillar. You would know that if you read the whole paragraph. The mentioning of "face to face" simply refers to the style in which God spoke to him. Additionally, no one has to be perfect themselves to tell the truth. There has only been one perfect person on this earth. That was Jesus.

John, being a compassionate liberal won't help you. We're not saved by works. We're saved by faith.

I agree about getting back to Trump.

"John, being a compassionate liberal won't help you. We're not saved by works. We're saved by faith."

Keep telling yourself that. It's not going to make any difference anyway. I guess Jesus wasted his whole life teaching since his lessons were of no use to conservative christians anyway. All he had to do was hop on the cross and die to whitewash your sins.

Didn't the GOP tell Trump that he had to commit to them back when he started his campaign? I thought there was some sort of argument over that whole mess. So he commits, becomes their front runner and now they are desperately trying to get rid of him. Ohhh, GOP, you are so lost and crazy that it's not even funny!

BTW - I am not saying the Democrats are any better, I just find this whole Trump debacle hilarious in regards to how the party is acting now.

The Republicans spent so much energy trying to bring down the President, they couldn't see that a lack of policy issues and viable candidates would eventually bring them to this.

You can tell that one of the ten commandments isn't thou shalt not lie. The Christian Taliban followers Robert and Mark are lying like a rug. If you are on the side of right, I have to wonder why it would be required that you lie so much. I remember the first time I had a Christian extremist lie to me directly. They told me that public schools had quit teaching evolution because science had proven it false. This was in 1993. I was still very young and uninformed so I had no response to this but it didn't take long to learn that these "Christians" were lying. Now 23 years later evolution is still being taught in public school and evolutionary science has proven itself as true as something can be proven without having actually witnessed it over the course of billions of years.

Ask yourself, "If I am on the side of righteousness, why do I have to lie so much?" The answer should be obvious. Faith is something people use to verify their own delusions. I suspect lying to me comes easy because you have lots of practice lying to yourself. I personally don't find any need to tolerate liars. I suspect that if there is a God, and I hope there is, he won't tolerate them either. If heaven is real, and I hope it is, Robert and Mark won't be there. Any real heaven that was actually a place I wanted to go would be devoid of liars and religious extremists of any kind.

Eric. Someone hurt you deeply as a young man. Hope you get some peace.

Jeremy. We have spun this up pretty good. Last quip. There is a difference between Church and being a Christian. Don't confuse the two. This is where I use the catholic religion again because it is the biggest example. I would absolutely agree with Jefferson on this. That is why people like to think that he is a contradiction. To Christians a church is a place to gather for fellowship. The preacher is supposed to be a teacher and mentor at best.

Christians are supposed to read the bible themselves and have a relationship themselves with God, not to a church. That is where Jefferson has it right. A church is where two people come into fellowship to worship God. Not a man made control structure. That is what the catholic church originated from and still is and so are many of the offshoots of it.

^^^^ Hey can't you all see Eric is a total Troll ^^^^^
Hey loves to kick the bees nest and then go hide. He has the religious wing on the hook big time.

Hey Eric how about answer the question relative to the subject. Who are you voting for?

Are you going to answer my question? If you are on the side of righteousness, then why do you have to lie so much? Why does Trump have to lie so much? Why all the lies?

I'm not hiding. When it becomes apparent that the person I am arguing with can't see beyond their own delusions, it's time to exit. When I prove my point, you all begin to resort to the lowest forms of communication and bullying. You're similar to a cave man swinging a club. I have no interest in participating in that unless the clubs are real. Unlike Republicans, I would prefer not to enter a completely unwinnable war that empties my proverbial bank account.