Boat Show was Depressing
I usually love going to the boat shows. This year I found it a little depressing though. There was very little oriented towards wakeboarding--it was mostly wakesurfing.
And, the biggest bummer was boat prices. It seemed like the average wakeboat now costs over 100K. There were several approaching or exceeding 200K. The whole vibe seemed to have changed. It really seemed like it was oriented towards the very wealthy and had lost the family, sporty stoke that drew me to it all in the first place. Anyone else notice this or was it just me? P.s. This hasn't killed my stoke for wakeboarding or family boating at all, just found the change in boat show vibe a little disheartening. |
I went through this a few years ago myself. I felt like the ski-boat industry had abandoned athletes in-favor of the pleasure cruiser market and that soon all would be lost.
But it hasn't. Wake boarding is still bigger than it's ever been. I love the new boats and a $100k boat is motivation to work hard, but they aren't required to throw 99.9% of tricks and they defiantly aren't required for a good time. I remind myself that my favorite time in wakeboarding was before the boat industry focused on wakeboarding (90s). It was the people and their attitudes that turned me into a lifer. As the industry shifts their gaze, don't let it change you. Also, don't let the marketing fool you. Behind the posters of families pulling up to the on-water bar and grill, tubes and grandpa surfing is a 400+ HP with 2k+ stock ballast monster wakeboarding machine. Sell them how they must, they are still made for you and me. |
It's hard to believe Boats have doubled in 6 to 7 years.
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With those higher prices, you have a lot more features, bigger size and a higher level of finish too. The 2005 boat i just traded in was like a dinosaur compared to my new one. The market has changed because the average age of the buyers has changed due to surfing. Guys that would have hung up the hobby are staying around longer because they can still have fun surfing and the technology on surf boats is still emerging. Those same guys have more money now that they're older too and can afford bigger better etc.
In my own experience, I bought one of those newer, more expensive boats because it's just one more thing for my family to do together. Kids tend to wander off and do their own thing when they get older so it makes sense to keep them around by spending money on a cool new boat. |
I've noticed that in our area, most of the people buying the new, top tier boats aren't former wakeboarders.
Most are/were well off, a little older, a little rounder, and buying the boats strictly for surfing. I have meet people with 2 year old G23's that have literally NEVER pulled a single wakeboard, and tons of these owners have never even tried a wakeboard, ever. I love boats and I love being on the water, but what drew me to all of this was wakeboarding, NOT the boats themselves or the image or status symbol. |
It definitely has changed the market. What's amazing is the amount of units these dealerships are still able to move with these prices. The one positive is used wake boats are now one of the few things that are appreciating in value given the cost of new.lol.
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count me as one that used to wakeboard all the time then as the injuires (seperated ribs twice, torn miniscous, cracked cheek bone, stitched/split eye brow) mounted surfing became my go to sport on the water because I can see myself in 25 yrs at the ripe age of 63 and retired still surfing. where as wakeboarding just wont be possible like it used to.
So I know have a G23 and have yet to wakeboard it but I just bought it at the end of august so I atleast have a little excuse. I may only wakeboard behind it a dozen times this upcoming yr but will surf it much much more, so I can totally see why they are marketing these boats towards the 30something crowd that can afford a new wake sports boat. the thing to think about is in 10 yrs the new 22yr old wakeboarders will be driving a G23 they bought for the price of a new crossover SUV and be able to truly take advantage of the boats that us 40 yr old surfers are buying and depreciating the price now. The hand me down are gonna be way sicker than the ones we had as 22yr olds. Mine was a tige 20i with no ballast, direct drive, w/o a stereo yet I still learned so much on. |
The used G23 market is going to be insane....
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These boats are still ridiculous on the used market. No way an 08 210 should be 50k.
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I can see myself in 0 years at the age of 60 wanting to wakeboard and all my neighbors on the lake with G's only wakesurfing.
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I'm right with you OP.
It'd be wonderful to be able to purchase a boat before build, so that I could only get/therefore only pay for the options that I want in a boat. I do think a lot of people will pick up kiteboarding/switch to primarily riding nearby cables if they can because of boat prices. Of course this discussion could go into the "you don't need a G23 to have fun" conversation But we never talk about how price excludes a ton of people from trying/enjoying/sharing/growing our sport. I was watching Prime with a friend who was unfamiliar with wakeboarding and at one point they stopped the movie and observed that there had literally not been one black person on-screen at all. Does anyone else ever wonder if the price to ride stops the sport from growing in diversity? Will the price of **** come down since more people want to wakeboard? or will other companies follow the boat companies lead and market themselves to the 1%? Does a non-kent owned company need to come in and operate at a lower margin, undercutting & forcing others lower their prices? There's a lot of hate for blank skateboard companies http://theridechannel.com/news/2015/07/blank-boards But top of the like skate products will run you around 200$ total, so the barriers to entry at an absolute level are a joke anyways Just curious if anyone else wonders about this stuff hahahaha |
Why does everyone think they need a bran new boat to wakeboard? What a bunch of spoiled brats. I started wakeboarding behind a POS I/O that my friends dad had and for the price of my first boat which was also a POS I/O you can now get a much nicer direct drive. Get a used boat and quit whining.
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Only nowadays PC/everything is racist culture would even think of that while watching a wakeboard video. I wonder if your friend thinks the same when he is watching an NBA game or BET tv. He should probably "boycott" extreme sports due to the lack of diversity. Hahaha Sry for the rant just so tired of everything becoming a racial diversity issue... Plus Josh Palma would be pissed if the sport became more diverse. He gets off on always being the token black guy. |
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1000 pounds in my 01 Xstar I don't ever see getting another boat beautiful wake lots of room Bought with 236 hours this year Lotz of life left on her hopefully my old body has same if not eventually will pull my kids and grandchildren
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I have been preaching for years that the boat market itself is alienating people from wakeboarding and even wakesurfing. I'm still rocking an 01 Mastercraft X-Star, she's paid for, 1500 hours and running stronger than ever, the wake can get really big and clean and by comparison to todays boats she's stripped down just the way I like it.
I have several friends who have new MC X-stars and G23's and while the boats are super rad, I don't want a floating Lambo. It's almost not even fun to go out in the floating Lambo's. Don't step on this or that, dry that off, don't set your board there, only buy beer with screw tops, dont beach the boat, take your shoes off, sit on a towel, dry complete off before you get in, don't put open beers in cup holders when we are moving, dont knee on the seats, adjust the mirror with two hands, shake the rope off before you bring it in the boat, dont jump off the gunnel, don't splash the dash. ICK I want a working boat. A boat that is made to pull wakeboarders, I don't need touch screens, self raising towers, racks that slide around, LED lights everywhere, over the top vinyl (it all breaks down and cracks over time, and rips all the same,) Perfect Pass, wedges and tabs. I just want a boat with a big ass wake and engine big enough to get it out the hole once I've slammed it with sacs. 50K all day is a good start but I would love to see someone making the Honda Accord of Wake boats, how about 40K all day or 30K all day. I have the privilege of living on a lake and owning multiple boats (X-Star and a Toon). I would love a new super basic, stripped down X-star or G23 just for the wake it creates. My wake boat has one purpose, pulling riders, if we go out cruising and lounging we just hop in the pontoon. There's no way I would want my rowdy crew to party in my wakeboat the way we do in the pontoon. Most people don't have the luxury of owning multiple boats, but you can have a damn good time in any boat, it doesnt have to be floating Lambo. Sorry for the Rant. |
It's not realistic to build a 30-40k wakeboat anymore. The engine packages ALONE are very expensive, let alone the controls, guages, running gear, ballast pumps, electrical, stereo, etc... The cost of running a factory, providing a warranty, Quality Control, R&D.
Half the pontoon boats at the boat show were $35k... There is no way you can get an inboard powered v-drive that cheap. Just aint happening. If you want to spend less, buy used. There are boats in EVERY SINGLE PRICE RANGE on the used market. I'm friends with a family that has 2 little girls that are CRAZY about wakeboarding. Dad bought an older 2001 and threw a tower on it. More than enough boat for a family of 4 to go wakeboarding and enjoy the lake. |
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Ive never understood the drying off completely before getting into the boat. Its a freaking boat!
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To me the people Andy described are also the ones that sell the boat in 3 years with 60 hours on it and take a huge dive on it.
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I have to agree with a lot of the comments directly above (Dave, Miguel, Mark)! I just purchased a new G23 that'll be here next month. I'm super excited about it. However I could care less if you sit in it wet. And you can jump off of it from wherever, just know if you break it, you buy it! About the only rules I'll have is no shoes on the vinyl (only because I've seen rubber put huge "burn" marks on vinyl when slid or rubbed across it), the new G has plenty of integrated step pads, please use them. And secondly, no cigs over the seats. I have absolutely no problem with normal wear and tear on vinyl, but unnecessary wear is just silly. I don't live on the lake (yet) so having a toon and a wake boat isn't a viable option for me right now. And the boat I just traded in was an '08 XStar, which with the additional ballast I had on it put out an incredible wakeboard wake!! I LOVED that boat. And if it weren't for the fact that I dislocated my knee last year and only got to really wakesurf all year, I wouldn't have even looked at newer boats. But sadly, that model XStar does not have a starboard side wakesurf wake worth a crap and I'm goofy so..... I actually USE my boats too...I average close to 300 hours a summer. So I don't mind spending the $$$ for something nice where I spend a lot of time. I'm still a core wakeboarder at heart (even tho maybe not by body), so having a boat that is excellent at surfing but still has the meanest wakeboard wake also is just a plus for me!! And I do agree that the costs are getting a little outrageous, but most of that cost is driven by two things, advancing R&D, and new technology packages. I agree with the above that you will probably never see a new wake boat list for less than $50k due to what goes into these boats and the research. But that is what also keeps the used boat market going. |
I am in the industry and have a hard time myself with why pricing has been increasing so much over the last few years. Mid-2000's we sold a few X-80's and at that time a 28 footer with two motors invoiced at 100k. In a decade these boat prices have almost doubled. Im bummed to see the more value oriented boats like MB, Axis, Moomba raising their prices too. Around 2012 people were in these boats for around $50k. now they are $70k. Do you really believe the technology and R&D is worth the money… and when you compare any of those three boats to the big three… is the extra 40-50k actually worth it… is it that much better and are you going to have that much more fun? If you were to take the logos and badging off these boats and had them side by side i would bet most new first time boat buyers would have a difficult time disguising what boats what and the value placed on the boats. There is no million dollar wave and I've been behind almost everything and the differences are marginal at best in my opinion… sure theres some boat bling etc that some have and others don't but you really believe its worth all the extra cost? hats off to the marketing teams who have some people convinced that particular brands or boats are the best… lastly… the people on the forums and discussion boards should be getting paid by these companies… they are the ones doing R&D and getting creative and making their own DIY surf systems or whatever… why are the rest of you paying for some CEO's private jet etc.
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The used boat prices are getting out of hand too. Tourny boats are one of the few things that are now appreciating in value as well. My 09 Tige that I bought 3 years ago is now worth more than what it sold for new in 2009 according to the market. I could probably get close to $ 16K more for it than I paid for it 3 years ago. It's crazy.
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I just came from the Charlotte boat show. They had an entire corner dedicated to wake boats. That was the good. The bad was what the OP and others have already stated: the prices. I'm not certain because I didn't check every boat but all that I did check were all $ix digits. If I really, really had to, I can afford a $110,000 boat but I'm in my mid fifties and have a very good income. How many young enough to REALLY enjoy it and get good at it can afford that? My mid twenties son is still driving a car I own and insure and is one paycheck away from living in my basement.
Unfortunately the only way to fight high prices is NOT TO BUY. It might be painful for a while but as long as you keep getting sucking into thinking it's okay to have a $1000 a month payment for the next twenty years, they'll keep selling them for the crazy high prices. Don't put yourself in that position. It's one thing to do that for a house but a boat? Yikes. I don't envy you kids (crap - I didn't want to say any "old man" stuff like that). |
I do realize this was a long time ago and the dollar isn't great/a lot of r&d has gone into the new buts, but...I paid 53k for my 2005 x2 brand new with single axle trailer. I did have the small engine, but other than that I had almost every option. I thought that was reasonable.
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I think what you guys are missing is there are still a ton of options. Can you get a brand new MC or Bu for 50K anymore? Absolutely not.
However, have you seen the new Axis, Moomba or MB? They have arguably more features than a MC or Bu of that time and can be had for what? 60-70K? So in 10 years you can get a better boat for 10-20K more? If you want the best of the best you're gonna spend over 100K. If you just want a nice boat that performs well and has a ton of cool features, then you can still get in the game. |
I have not priced new boats in a while, but pretty sure you aren't getting a brand new axis for anywhere near 60k.
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A24 or T23? Probably not. But I'm guessing with some skilled negotiation you can get in a T22 right in that range |
Are new boat prices high? Yes. Do we get more than we used to for that higher price? Yes. If you don't like the prices, don't buy. Get a used boat. Simple as that. If simplicity is what you're after, you don't want most of the boats being offered today anyway. Do you want a boat that throws an awesome wakeboarding wake without all the fancy frills of the modern stuff? The used market is FULL of them. There are TONS of awesome boats out there with a lot of life left in them for way less than 50K. For those of you that want to cry about why you can't afford a new BA boat, too bad. Get a decent job, save your money like the rest of us have and decide if boating/boarding/surfing at a high level is really for you. If not, take up a different hobby. No one is entitled to this lifestyle and no one cares if you add another boat to the lake that the rest of us are on. In fact, we'd rather you dropped out and leave the good water to us.
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I like your way of thinking! lol |
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As for "No one is entitled to this lifestyle," comment. I could not agree more, I am a capitalist and a republican. You want to get ahead in this life you go to school, you work hard, and you get ahead. |
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Of course you pay for the touchscreen, big stereo, etc. Does that mean it is "artificially" inflated? No. It means those things cost money to produce. You are also paying for R and D costs. How do you think Malibu is able to come out with a new gadget every year? SG, PW2, surfband, the list goes on. These things cost money. If you don't care about them there is a boat for you. In fact, several nice ones at a good price. |
I agree with Andy. Further more look at skateboarding, it took a dive in the 80's because of the economy and overall disinterest in the sport. Since parks and ramps were no longer king street skateboarding started to take off. But look at it now. Street is huge but ramps, concrete parks, awesome street plazas, and even big ramp stuff is back and bigger than ever. Its really crazy how vert and ramp riding died and now its back. A lot of pros ride bowls that started in the streets. If you dont believe me look at features like "in transition" on theberrics.com. Skateboarding park/bowl/vert is mainstream. To me it seems wakeboarding is following a similar path. Boat companies are hoping surfing will save them but in the end wakeboarding will prevail as the top dog water sport. Surfing will still be there but boat companies will end up coming back to wakeboarding. In all honesty the boat companies probably are due for a pull back. We are seeing huge price increase now but it wont last forever. I think there g's will still be there but most of the true riders out there will ride whatever you put in front of them, the way it should be. I'm lucky to have a monster wake but by todays standards if its not a g23 there are people out there that turn their noses up. Its not what you do but how you do it.
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Homes are investments, hell a lot of high priced cars are investments, even a boat with a bed and a toilet that cost in the neighborhood or above can be an investment as most will appreciate given time BUT a 150K-210K SKI boat with nearly all the money in extras and bling and WILL most likely depreciate and fast as well as fall apart is a terrible purchase invest wise and when you are partying those prices its supposed to be an investment. SO we are NOT judging those that own them or will be happy paying those prices we are simply trying to make a point that the market is out of control and prices are just way off for a sport so small in the grand scheme of things compared to the NFL and such.. If skateboards cost 10,000 dollars people would take issue but hey maybe they added diamond and gold inlays and SS wheel hubs and etc etc maybe they fly LOL but core skaters would be protesting it like the core wake boarders are on the boat prices the last 5 years. |
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Like I said no ones really judging those purchasing just the prices they are being sold out..id like to see a true break down of costs from R&D/Forms to final product and truly know where the larger part of the costs are coming from.. BTW I take issues with the costs mostly as a business person who sells HVAC for a living and have people tell m how im ripping them off when I charge 6k for anew base complete system in our area where others charge 12k and they don't get why we are charging what we charge and at most have a GP of less than 40% if we are lucky, yet they have these types of toys in their yards and 4x more square footage than they need for the persons living in their home, yet my prices are too high, well I can tell you $12 dollar beers, 70$ steaks, 6$ coffees, and these boat prices are ripping people off , not me LOL call me jaded :) Im selling a need for comfort in their home that can last 10-15 years and 6k is too much? really? ughh |
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Here's an idea: for all of the people who think boats are "too nice" now, go add up all of the new boat sales of said boats which you feel are too nice. That's how many people disagree with you. You'll find that your opinions are like a fart in the wind-or to use HVAC terms, you're like a few CFM's comparred to 1000's of CFM's. Also, most of those HVAC contractors who charge double what you charge are spending a ton on advertising and probably have higher overhead too. If not, you need to raise your prices since you obviously don't know what your knowledge and skills are worth. After that, go buy a new G. :p |
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Your completely missing the mark on what I am saying and after this I am done explaining myself. The boat industry is alienating people by having such a huge initial investment for a world class wake. Yes the used Market exists, you are acting like I am idiot who doesn't understand that you can buy a used boat. But a new whip costing $170K its going to take 20 years for that boat to be cost effective for that average family. In the car market you can get a Rolls Royce or a Honda Accord. Both do the exact same thing, get you from point A, to point B. One has a significantly larger upfront investment than the other, but both serve the exact same function and both get you from A to B perfectly. I am in no way saying if you want fluff you should not be able to buy fluff. I have been involved in this sport for over 20 years, I watched it peak, now it is clearly in a bit of a slump. Board Manufactures cutting teams, Oakley dropping their wake team, Arnette Dropping wake, the list goes on. I desperately want to see this sport grow, cable parks are helping this, all you need is a board and park pass and you can start running laps. While I respect the cable, I am a boat guy always have been always will be, I just think wakeboarding behind the boat is the most organic form of the sport and looks the best. Mastercrafts NTX boats are great and maybe 50K all day is the floor on what wakeboard boat pricing can achieve, but I have no idea they don't share their production costs with the general public. All I am trying to relay is that I wish the boat market had something that more people could afford that's throwing a world class wake to help the sport open up to more of the mass market and grow the sport we are all so passionate about. Who knows maybe 10 years form now the G's and X's will be the staple hull shape. I know your going to attack me again and that's fine, I have thick skin. Bring up the used market. Claim I am not a capitalist. I am not a keyboard cowboy. Far from it, I have nothing to hid. Nice Private Profile. I'm the farthest thing form a "hater" that exists in this sport, I love every aspect of it. In no way do I think that $175K boats should not exists they are amazing pieces of machinery. We will clearly not be on the same page. |
Nope. No attacks here. My profile is private? That's news to me. In fact, I have a ton of personal info on it. I just updated it when I recently got a new boat. Honestly, this subject isn't worth arguing about to me any more. Have a good day.
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I just don't get this whole dumb argument. There's a boat out there for everybody. And a NEW boat at that.
There are plenty of sick waves on NEW boats to be had at the 60-70K mark. They also have a ton of features including automated surf systems, GPS, ballast, etc. If you want a blinged out, top of the line G or M235 or X with a touch screen and a butler to put your wakeboard on for you then you gotta pay for it son. Sorry. |
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Fact is that if you want a brand new wakeboard boat, the prices are going to start at $50k and go up to $180k. That's a pretty generous range of prices when you consider that the options are all boats in the 20-25 foot range with V8 engines. What it comes down to is, boats are expensive. The CHEAPEST pontoon boat at the boat show was $20k. That's with a 60hp outboard.... I mean, come on guys. You can't expect any fiberglass hull boat with a V8 to be less than $45k or so, it's just not feasible. more food for thought, a 19 foot jet boat with a tiny 1.8L engine costs $35k. http://www.boattest.com/review/yamaha/2757_ar192 That's a very small boat, only 2k pounds. Even a 20 foot axis weighs 50-60% more than that. |
I know a lot of people who come into wakeboarding and just don't have the experience (or access to people who do) who think they have to buy a new boat, then see the prices and get put off. It's a shame. With regards to sponsors dropping out of the industry - Video killed the comp star. So much is available online and you get to see the very best newest tricks straight away. The new generation access it differently.
In some ways we allowed the decline onto ourselves - so many (usually non pro) riders are super negative and talk about style all the time and which tricks/grabs you shouldn't do. Heck - one of the most popular wake sites is dedicated to people not doing it 'right' or not being stylish (I've been riding 13 years and I can only tell maybe 10 riders from their style. Most other pros looks about the same - awesome). In Australia, our main wake magazine didn't even consider the worlds top rider for ROTY. Seriously Union - Harley not even worth nominating? Tall poppy at its finest and really disappointing. As I say to all the guys and girls i teach when they're a little intimidated - It's all about the biggest smiles, not the biggest tricks. Have fun, encourage others and make your time on the water a good time.The wake scene will hopefully re-invent itself as more focused on fun, but in the meantime I'm going to enjoy getting out whenever I can (very hard now that I have 3.5 kids) behind the fishing boat and smashing out air tricks at the local system 2. With a big smile ;) |
All of our perceptions of value is different. its just interesting that we sell a loaded MB B52 23 for $80k and our competitor is selling a G23 for $155k…so where is the $75k hiding… maybe a $20k engine upgrade but $55k more in other bells and whistles??? if dealers can find people to buy these high end boats good for them. a lot of our customers that bought MC and Nautique in the past and gave MB a shot are actually very impressed and don't see the need for boats to cost over $100k.
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"so where is the $75k hiding"
That WAKE. |
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My first thought on MB vs Nautique is Sponsorship and Events money. Nautique has team riders that are being paid, flown to events, put in hotels. All that adds up and a budget is needed. They also host/sponsor competitions. That's a significant investment as well. Some money is hiding in R&D, of course. Engineers are expensive. Testing equipment is expensive. Investments are another thing. Gotta spend money to make money. Correct Craft purchased OWC, they purchased 51% of Fineline (Centurion and Supreme). That all requires cash on hand. So, I'm not sure if all of that adds up to $55k per boat, but those are some thoughts on why Nautique can be more expensive. |
**** I'd be happy with a g23 hull, some bags and lawnchairs for seating. But that's me
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I agree with you on all points…i just think its funny that the marketing of… pros… events… etc. makes you boat perform that much better or people think material cost and build is that much more superior. |
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