So i just got back from Mazatlan, Mexico. My dad and I rented some surf boards (1 long and 1 short) and thought we would give it a try. <BR> <BR>Holy Shiat! <BR> <BR>I thought it was going to be way easier considering the wakesurf background. I had no idea the amout of tech that is needed to catch a single wave. I now have sooo much more respect for all surfers and pros. <BR> <BR>I ended up catching several white wash sections and getting the hang of paddeling and such just as my time down south was up... overall a great experience and I would love to try it again...

sounds like the waves were not to clean. i was down at cocoa beach over christmas and the waves were 4&amp;5 ft., but the wave period was about a half second, so this pretty good surfer took a beating getting out to the surf and then stood on his board for a half second, the weather was not nice either. <BR>i guess we don't know how nice we have it, with the boat pulling us up and making a nice crisp endless wave, the kind of wave surfers can just dream about, plus they go months without a good break in the surf

Jo, I couldn't agree more. I've been surfing the Ventura area for 20 years. The amount of time spent searching for rideable waves, waiting out flat spells, and paddling and waiting for waves when the surf IS up is astonishing. The relative amount of time you spend up and riding is minuscule. Since I enjoy riding small waves, I'm hooked on wakesurfing.

Don't get me wrong, I love wakesurfing but there is nothing like dropping into a clean 6' wave, doing a nice little bottom turn to hit the lip, stall out and pull into a barrel. Although, I don't usually surf a wave in the ocean for 5 minutes and there is never a wait between sets when I am wakesurfing. Board More/Work Less! <BR>Wadd$

Hey Johnny. On weekdays between major swells, I surf Rincon when it is less crowded. Not many barrels but long wave faces that provide for 20 second + rides. I love it. Its my number one sport. This spring I'll also be wakesurfing more regularly. Bottom line, I'll be BOARDING MORE AND WORKING LESS!

Jim, That's what I like to hear! I use to surf almost everyday. I had a family and outgrew my home in Santa Cruz so I had to move inland. So I bought a boat with a big wake. I wakesurf at least once a week and surf every couple months with my bros. <BR>Wadd$

Yes, surfers have my respect also. They have to be in great shape just to paddle out and wipeouts, especially over shallow reefs, can be brutal. I have a friend who died bodyboarding when he was knocked out on a reef. The coolest part, to me, about surfing is how much respect "most" of the surfers have for the environment. You can watch surf competitions via webcams by visiting <a href="http://www.surfersvillage.com" target="_blank">www.surfersvillage.com</a>

I always tell people, "WakeSurfing teaches you 1/3rd of surfing" The riding the wave part. The 1st 1/3rd is paddeling out. The 2nd 1/3rd is catching the wave. But, learning 33.3% of anything the easy way is great. Put a larger set of fins on a Shred Stix and you can use it in sweet and salt water. But not over head high. <BR> Jim, Surfed Rincon last week during the swell. Spent most of my time watching Shaun Thompson from South Africa. DUDE STILL RIPS!!!!!! <BR> ALL of YOU, Buy some Stixx so I can move back to the beach. Delta is nice but...

Jerry, you may recall I bought the Shred Stixx Extreme last year and talked to you briefly about wake board boats. I tried it in the ocean with larger fins and it worked good! Although I occasionally get uncrowded Rincon, those sessions are few and far between. IMO ocean surfing is the most crowded sport on earth. You have it made "surfing" the delta. Take care.

Maybe I'm just crazy, but there is something really exciting about being able to surf on a flat lake with no crowds.

You know Jim, When I am in a crowded line up, I want my boat, When I am in the boat, I want barrels. It's all good when I am on a surfboard surfing. I've never told anyone, wakesurfing is better that real waves, But for me it is the next best sport and I can do it whenever there is gas in the boat.

Hey Jerry, <BR>I feel ur pain, I just got back from the north shore (jan 10th) was there for 2 weeks, and at first I didn't know wat was up (surfed there many times be 4). Had to paddle out, possition myself for a wave (got snaked most off the time) by some little 10 year old(names not mentioned), finally got some waves, than realised I had 2 paddle all the way back out, fighting the rip, taking a few on the head especially at Pipe, and doing the whole thing over and over again. But there is no real feeling to surfing the real stuff. The freedom,expression, etc. <BR>When ur in a boat u take it for granted. u surf ur wake as long as your legs can take it. in reality surfing real waves is much harder, <BR>than Ur in Ur boat and u wish 4 the real thing. <BR> <BR>It's a big trade off. I truly respect the ocean, and actually u feel much more free - surfing real waves. <BR>But I also have to state that surfing behind a boat is so kool. endless wave, no crowds, nobody to deal with exept that one person on Ur boat that complains all the time; but I'll take that, it's the price u pay for surfing either behind the boat or at an A frame peak with ur boys. <BR>Whe're r going to costa rica ral soon, ur more than welcomed 2 come w/ us. reak surf, real waves.

We so need to call our sport something else, eliminating the reference to the dreaded "surf". Comparing and contrasting wakesurfing to ocean surfing seems to only denegrate our sport. <BR> <BR>With all due respect, ocean surfers will always look condescendly on our discipline, much like wakeboarding elitists lay claim to butter and suggest that wakesurfing should be relegated to blown out days and weekends when tubers abound. <BR> <BR>Back in the day, Hobie Altar was very smart...the discipline we know today as skateboarding was refered to as sidewalk surfing. Those of you old enough to remember will get a kick out of this album cover as the Callengers go Sidewalk Surfing. Sidewalk surfers as they were known had their origins in scooters not surfboards, but someone wanted to ride that craze. Hobie, I do believe, wanted to get out from the shadow of surfing and the negative association from surfers. <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/404646.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR> <BR>The same thing was true with wakeboarding, the original wakeboards were skurfers. Snowboarding, started with two skis connected and the first commercially available boards were called snurfers. The commercial geniuses knew that associating with surfing would always limit the discipline to an also ran AND would generate meaningless comparisons which will ALWAYS result in a negative connotation from avid surfers. <BR> <BR>The only connections that our sport has with surfing are water and the rails of a very limited number and kind of surfstyle wakesurfer. The Trick Boardz Surf Skate is a wakesurfer and no one would ever imagine that you could take it out in the lineup and paddle in. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Well no one weighing over 22 pounds. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR>The Surf Skate is a wakesurfer, it's used for wakesurfing, but no one ever makes a negative reference to THAT board being used in the ocean, or or how much more "free" it feels in overheads. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>You have to respect the likes of folks like Drew Danielo. You never read him saying things like: "...well wakesurfing isn't like skimboarding (or wakeskating) there isn't that aerobic workout as you run down the beach and jumping on a board skimming across the surface is such a rush that will never be truly duplicated behind a boat." They are two separate disciplines, and you have to respect the professionalism that isn't critical of one sport over another. <BR> <BR>It's NOT surfing! <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Jerry and Alan - I so want to chastise you two <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> You both have a vested commercial interest in seeing the sport become an independent discipline, not some second class citizen of surfing. <BR> <BR>I'd prefer to call it 'wheeless boatboarding' than to forever live in the shadow of a sport that has such a limited influence on this discipline. <BR> <BR>Boat shredding? Shredboarding? Something...anything that separates us from the "S" word. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>Flame on? <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

So In Cheaper by the Dozen II, Steve Martin asks if anybody wants to go waterboarding, the wakeboard guys rolled there eyes. Notice the boat is a Sea Doo with a tower. <BR> <BR>So it looks like the wakeboarders already own waterboarding due to Steve Martin, they can have it. <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/404669.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR> <BR>Seems to me that wakesurfing is just what it is, kind of a German approach to word development. Though we don't often call surfing in the ocean "Ocean Surfing". Often Americans come up with new names for things similar to the way Jeff is suggesting, that confounds the Germans; French too. However I don’t think I want anyone on my boat to do any “boat shredding”, I’m still have payments to make. <BR> <BR>I’ve seen clips of people surfing waves formed by large features in river rapids, and there’s that one river in Alaska that has a once per tide wave. I think those guys call those activities River Surfing, right? <BR> <BR>The one name that I like a lot is trade marked, “Inland Surfing”, i.e. “Inland Surfer”. When someone not involved in wakesurfing hears the term “Inland Surfing” they have to stop and think for a moment what Inland Surfing is, but there’s enough information to begin to draw a picture or to begin to ask questions. <BR> <BR>I have a hard enough time explaining wakeboarding to non-skiers, wakesurfing takes longer to explain and is met with considerable disbelief.

its always going to be called surfing, because thats what your doing behind the boat, whether real surfers think your surfing or not. <BR>most real surfers think this is not surfing <BR><a href="http://www.flowrider.com/" target="_blank">http://www.flowrider.com/</a> <BR>this is ronjons surf park <BR><a href="http://www.surfparks.com/home.php" target="_blank">http://www.surfparks.com/home.php</a> <BR>i cannot wait to hit that! <BR>so the ronjon surf complex utilizes 66and2/3% of what the surfers do because you don't paddleout! very cool, this place is not open yet, but should be open this summer.

I like the term wakesurfing because I do surf the wake. I even ride a ShredStixx which is an actual surf board. I have surfed on the South Fork on the American River. The guys I was with called it river boarding. It was small, very hard to get into but fun one you got in position. You need to look out for the rocks on the way down though. OUCH! There are pros and cons to surfing on the ocean or the lake like Alan said. There have been so many times I wanted say shine to surfing. You'll paddle out to the peak to have some idiot paddle around you and claim it is his wave. Well homie don't play that so I'll burn him. This will end up in an argument and has gone as far as throwing down in the water. I have seen guys take hammers to guys boards. The best is when some kook is shoulder hopping and gets sucked over the falls right on top of you. Most of the time it's crowded and if the swell isn't pumping you have lulls and have to sit and wait, only to have 5 guys paddle for the same wave, someone gets burned that it starts all over. I have never been burned on the lake nor do I have to deal with crowds. If I could find a way to make my boat produce a chest high wake that barreled, I'd hang up groveling for waves in the ocean. So wakesurf, inland surf, or one of those crazy things Jeff called it. As always... Board More/Work Less! <BR>Wadd$ <BR>Here is a small day in the ocean verses a medium size day on the lake. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/404712.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/404713.jpg" alt="Upload">

Well, I have to agree with Jo and disagree with Jeff. When using a surf style board or long board, the feel of the wave and the technique of wakesurfing is identical to ocean surfing. And comparing wakesurfing to ocean surfing DOES NOT denegrate the sport, but actually uplifts it. You uplift the sport by pointing out the many advantages it has over ocean surfing: no crowds, endless wave, no paddle outs, no waiting for sets - just to name a few. Jeff, aren't you busy with taxes?<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0> You must be as crazy as me paying lip service to this site at this time of the season.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>(Message edited by jimgalloway on January 17, 2007)

Hey Jim, Yeah can't do anything until the 1099'<font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> that's not true you can but you just have to do it all over again when the taxpayer brings in the info they forgot. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> This would be a great profession if it weren't for the clients. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> 2/1 is when I start. <BR> <BR>My esteemed colleague, I still disagree, you have to make the assumption that surfstyle boards are 'wakesurfing' and that eliminates the trick boardz and all skimstyle and hybrid boards completely. How can you eleminate an entire segment of the riding population without also saying there is a surfboard prejudice? <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>I think that the premise should be, and this is STRICTLY my subjective opinion (but I do love the interaction it created) surfing is surfing 'wheeless boatboarding' (or whatever) is unqiue and while it shares some similarities with the S sport (just as skateboarding and snowboarding does) it deserves it's own unique name and treatment as such.

Jeff, You've totally missed the fastest growing segment.

I have to jump in. Surfing is a gravity sport. Its not what is under your feet, it's whats pushing you or flying you. Its free falling with energy.

Mac are you Jeff's son or a relative? <BR> <BR>Ed? I know I'm going to regret this, but I'm going to bite anyway. Praytell, what segment did I miss? I am breathless with anticipation! <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>Did I start all of this? <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

Hi Jeff,I'm jeff's brother. I always enjoy reading your posts.

Hey Mac - thanks for the compliment and it's a pleasure to meet you. Jeff is such a nice guy, I always enjoy him.

Door surfing!

Yes! What was I thinking! Although, I refuse to use the S word any more (in this thread). I believe that activity is more appropriately referred to as Dooring OR, for those of us that need to have that S thing in there - Door S'ing. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Hey! Wake S'ing. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

S'ingdad, <BR>Call it what you want the fun is still there. I doubt that anyone would get the same rush or thrill behind a boat as at Pipeline. For some of us riding Pipeline is not in the cards anymore. I would say that the paddling into waves is not the part of surfing that riding a wave is. We are just riding a smaller wave. Wouldn't this logic also require renaming tow surfing as "have you lost your mind" surfing because you don't paddle out or into waves.

How about Plank Freeriding?

Right on! A man after my own heart - I'm a plankster! A freeriding plankster! <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

<b>Wakesurf Names:</b> <BR> <BR>Infinite surfing……....…Surf as long as you have gave and open water <BR>Surf Forming…….…......Kind of Trekkie – derived for terra-forming <BR>Power Surfing……....….Powered by a boat <BR>Paddle Freeing……....…Don’t have to paddle out to the waves <BR>Shark Freeing……….....No sharks <BR>Sans Shark………....…..No sharks <BR>Sans Jelly..……....………No Jelly fish <BR>Jelly Free..…….....………No Jelly fish <BR>Salt Free…………......…..No salt water <BR>Pissing off Fishermen...No description necessary <BR>Near Boat Sinking…....What I have to do to build a good surf wake <BR>Do You Need Help....…What everyone asks when they see my boat rigged for surf <BR>911…………..........……….What motorists dial when they see me boat ballasted for surf <BR>Expensive………….........You have to buy a boat, a truck to pull the boat, and gas

Jeff, not to many of those around. Kind of sounds a little gangster.

BK, I do like the S'ingdad. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> You are joining in the fray!!!! I'm sure that noone riding pipeline would get the same rush that they would having the IRS show up at their place of business with a warrant for their arrest, cease and desist order and a padlock. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> But, what good do those comparisons do? Two separate things with only limited similarity. I guarantee you after being arrested on Tax Fraud there will be liquid under your feet. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> It's NOT S'ing. Exciting as it may be. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>As a plankster <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> I love the sport, but I don't compare it nor do I need to compare it to the S word. There is very limited similarity in my mind and I still believe as you demonstrated, that folks that compare and contrast assume there is some superiority of S'ing over Plankstering. There isn't, that could be a preference, certainly you are allowed to have that opinion, but it's specific to that person or a prejudice. When you justify your preference by comparison to another discipline, you demean that referenced sport. <BR> <BR>That, in my mind, is about as useful as comparing winning the lottery to S'ing. And winning the lottery is so much more wealth building than S'ing. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> See? The response to that is: So? They are both fun, let Plankstering stand alone without living in the shadow of S'ing nor being subjected to meaningless comparisons. <BR> <BR>Plank on. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

Ed! FisherPisser! <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> I vote for that!!!!!! <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>Hey, I'm gonna go ballast my boat and do some fisherpisser'ing wanna come along?

s'dad, <BR>Are you teasing? I know you are a fair weather fisherpisser'ing person. So if I would prefer $ (activity formerly known as wakesurfing) than a criminal audit by the IRS would I be demeaning the IRS?

I think I'm confusing the activity of making a surfable wake and surfing the wake with “Do You Need Help” and “911”. <BR> <BR>How about extreme barge surfing? The whole process of building a wake can be quite challenging. I’ve put a fair amount of effort improving my surf wake. Curtis Haynie is modifying a huge boat for wakesurfing. I was on the Ohio River a few years ago and now have a thought. Wouldn’t it be cool to load a 1,500 ton capacity barge only on one side and push it down the river and see if how the wake develops? Want to top that, usually tug boats push a long string of barges. I’m sure that trying to surf a barge wake is a good way to spend a little quality time with the U.S. Coast Guard. <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/404898.jpg" alt="Upload">

Look at the size of that! BK, a little (ok a LOT!) tongue in cheek, but I sincerely believe that making comparisons between surfing and wakesurfing isn't helpful. First, it makes the assumption that wakesurfing is predominantly a surfstyle discipline. I don't know if that is accurate. I know that I concur with Mike Armstong, it should be wakesurfers and not skimstyle or surfstyle. When you compare surfing with a surfstyle board, you completely eliminate and ignore the likes of the 4skim, Calibrated, Phase 5 and to some extent the Walzers and soon to be Walker Project skimmers. That's a huge segment of the market and riders. And in my opinion so blantantly prejudical it can't be helpful for the sport. <BR> <BR>I also believe that as long as it's connected to surfing by name, it will always be considered the ugly stepchild of surfing. I believe this is why skurfers became wakeboards and why sidewalk surfers became skateboards. Folks much smarter than I, understood human behavior and decided that disassociating with surfing allowed the discipline to grow beyond the ugly stepchild stigma. <BR> <BR>I don't truly believe we'll ever see a name change, but I do believe we can make a positive change by not comparing surfing to wakesurfing or IRS criminal investigations <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> or any board sport. Wakesurfing is fun, and so is surfing. Neither is better than the other, just different. Wakesurfing can be done with skimboards, surfstyle boards, Trick Boardz Surf Skate, even doors! Only one "flavor" of board is similar to surfing in any real sense and the rest get ignored and by the ignorance diminished. <BR> <BR>I think $'ing (activity formerly known as wakesurfing) rocks. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

I don't think that water skiing and snow skiing have adversely effected each other. <BR>I know, "ropeless wakeboarding" that ought to stir up the pot and cover every type of board.

Let me jump in here again. Wakesurfing with a surf style or longboard is so similar to surfing a small ocean wave that, in fact, the two sports are very comparable. However, I will admit that I am prejudiced against skim-style boards, not because there is anything wrong with skim style, but for the sole reason that I am 55 years old, have been surfing for 25 years, and am not ready to learn a NEW SPORT. I intend to stick with surfing, either behind a boat or in the ocean. Period.

Dennis, if it's truly water skiing and snow skiing then you have the differentiation. But it's NOT ocean surfing and wakesurfing. Literally outside of this thread I have never heard the reference to Ocean Surfing. Surfing is the predominant name and thereby Wakesurfing is subordinated. I think that if you had Skiing (meaning water skiing) and Snow Skiing - there would be a subordination. I also think you'd find the manufacturers of Snow Skiing, in that instance, choosing a different name. I can tell you that my father was one of the folks involved in the development of Urethane, at the onset of mass produced skateboards, dear old dad manufactured a few urethane wheels to be used in place of the then clay wheels. He was ahead of his time by 20 years <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Anyway, as a boy I got the chance to go to the skateboard factory and when my dad called it a sidewalk surfer, he was corrected to the new name of skateboard and the marketing folks explained - unique and differentiated sport. <BR> <BR>Do we have any marketing masters in the audience? I'm sure they can explain why and when jumping off the coattails of a craze makes sense. <BR> <BR>Jim, I certainly respect your preference in sports and also in your consideration that small wave surfing, ocean that is <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>, is identical to wakesurfing (on a surfstyle board). THAT level of detail and differentiation is informative and while preferential isn't, in my opinion prejudical.

s'dad, <BR>The term surfing is used in many other ways IMO without negative ugly stepchild conotations. Surfing the web, kite surfing, windsurfing. Why should or does wakesurfing become negative in reference to each other.

BK, <BR> <BR>As I stated somewhere above, I don't truly expect that there will be a change in nomenclature, but my opinion and concern with referencing wakesurfing in the context of surfing is that the association is strictly "surfstyle" and doesn't encompass the broader market of skimstyle boards, hybrids such as the Walzer and - the rather unique Trick Boardz Surf Skate...plus who knows what else is in the pipe. <BR> <BR>My efforts within this thread are ONLY to create awareness. You can't do a discipline any good with generalizations, and the prejudical omission of such a broad segment of riders and boards. <BR> <BR>I would again disagree with your presumption about the limitations of naming. If your Personal Computer were labeled a websurfing device. The perception would be that is all that it did, even if it came loaded with spreadsheets, word processing software, etc. Not to forget that these public forums are visited by folks that are just learning and they gain perceptions by reading these posts. IMO, those of us that have more specific knowledge have a duty to bring others less knowldegable, along. <BR> <BR>When folks discuss wakesurfing in the context of it being just like ocean surfing on a surfboard, you effectively obscure the many facets of the sport, but also completely ignore or make riders that choose, say the 4skim, into second class citizens. <BR> <BR>If we made this into a racial discussion, discussing "people" as only being of a specific skin color, and that all others simply didn't exist, we'd all recognize the injustice and prejudical nature of that discussion. IMO, we do the same thing when we compare and contrast wakesurfing in the context that ONLY surfstyle boards and ocean surfing are of importance or relevant. ie "(White) folks make the best CPA's but sometimes they simply are too detail oriented. So occassionally (White) folks are better off being artists.". <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Remove the parenthesis in the sentences above and it's clearly prejudical, if the presumption is that ONLY White people exist, but that isn't expressed it's still prejudical, IMO. <BR> <BR>If the sport omitted the connotation of "surfing" and could still communicate what it was, I think we'd be better off. OR, as my esteemed colleague does and states clearly - I'm a 25 year veteran of ocean surfing and to me, wakesurfing a surfstyle board is identical to ocean surfing small waves...that is so clear, makes Jim's preference known and doesn't by and of itself dismiss the other 'flavors' of boards. <BR> <BR>OR as Mike Armstrong of Calibrated has long maintained, eliminate the divisions between surfstyle and skimstyle and make it ALL wakesurfers in which case, you don't have a reference or clear connection to ocean surfing. <BR> <BR>Wow - what an interesting discussion. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Who would have guessed.

How about eliminating the word "wake" from wakesurfing. To the vast majority of boaters, the wake is just a pile of disorganized whitewash behind the boat. Wakesurfers carefully weight their boats and cruise at an exact speed to turn part of the otherwise disorganized wake into a surfable "wave". The Oxford American Dictionary defines the word, wake, as "the track left on the water's surface by a moving (boat)". IMO this track consists of a series of waves. Wakesurfers surf only the second, and largest of those waves. (The first wave is sent out by the bow). <BR> <BR>Therefore, the word "wakesurfer" is somewhat demeaning because of the word wake, not because of the word, surfer. The implication in that word is that a surfer is trying to somehow ride a turbulent mass behind a boat. I like the terms Inland Surfer and Inland Surfing myself.

Hey, I need some support here. Some of you guys need to post in my defense. Jeff is getting ready to rip me again.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0>

I vote for "Walker-Boarding". <BR> <BR>Mac- Good to see you posting! Lemme know when you want to hit Crystal. It's been sick up there!

Jim Jim Jim, generally accepted terminology has modified the definition of wake - from usage in wakeboarding, wakeskating and wakesurfing, it's clean, crisp and with a well defined lip. Although I do like the concept of a wave over a wake. C'mon I know you can do better. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>I'm sure that Mark Sher and Jeff Page would get behind Inland Surfing, but I doubt that Jerry Price and the rest of the field of manufacturers would be supportive of that terminology. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>Walker-boarding - you know, I'm likin' that! <BR> <BR>Waveboarding?

"Walker-boarding" is that what old folks do? <BR> <BR>Hey Mark, all my skis are in Idaho and weekends are booked until I go back. I'll see what I can do.

Tow-in surfing is the only way to go.<!--attachment: Big_Wave_1-405527.unk*attachment_icon.gif*application/vnd.ms-publisher*94.7*Upload*Big+Wave+1%2epub --><center><table border=1><tr><td><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/icons/attachment_icon.gif" align=left alt="application/vnd.ms-publisher">Upload<br><a href="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/Big_Wave_1-405527.unk" target="_blank"><b>Big Wave 1.pub</b></a> (94.7 k)</td></tr></table></center><!--/attachment-->

I'm sure Mike Walker, owner of The Walker Project would support Walker-Boarding as much as Jeff Page would support Inland Surfing<IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

Is walkerboarding what we do, "us old folks". Who would have thought. Would boat wave boarding be to much? Waveboarding isn't that bad. I think if you are riding a surfstyle board it would be lazysurfing. All the fun without the work. <BR>Jim, you can surf a skim style board as well as a surfstyle board.

From WW2 days till 1999, The sport of surfing boat wakes was called "Freeboarding". Why. I do not know. Never really made since to me.For an explanation, one might ask, Dewey, Micky, Hobie, <BR>Con, Hap, Greg, Gordon, Rabbit, Doyle[Mike],or Bing. Who are these guys Jeff? Ask Dennis, He'll <BR>fill you in.

Jerry, <BR> <BR>Rabbit Kekai is 82, Hobie Alter is 74. I've watched Rabbit longboard over on the islands and I've shook the hand of Hobie as a youth as my father conducted business. I know these guys and your prejudice that I don't is wrong - and your prejudice towards all things NOT surfing in this discipline is evident - my point, exactly. IMO, you and Alan do NOT do the discipline a favor with this attitude and I will strive to continue to change this. <BR> <BR>Whatever the sports WAS called has no relevance, TODAY, now does it?

This quote from surfline.com and this IS the attitude that many 'surfers' have towards our discipline: <BR> <BR>"Today, actual freeboarding on a surfboard is rare, something you might see surfers on an unlucky boat surfari doing to pass time while waiting for a swell. The subsequent sport of wakeboarding itself casts a deservingly kookish stigma that most surfers avoid like the urologist. It could be argued, however, that the freeboarding movement was a progenitor of the big wave tow-in revolution, where surfers are flung into huge swells from a Jet Ski, and for that, we’re glad some bored guy from Florida gave it a shot. -- Greg Heller, October 2000"

Dennis, your right, I am lazy. (You guys always know how to rip me a new one.) <BR> <BR>Jeff, surfers have always called other surfers kooks for the slightest infractions. One of those oldtime Hawaiian surfers, I think it was Peter Cole, said that surfing any wave under 6' was NOT surfing. That's a slap in the face of the 95% of surfers who thoroughly enjoy 3-4' waves. You can't take what these people say seriously, and few people are listening anyway. Wakesurfing is every bit as good, and actually has many advantages over surfing small ocean waves. Sorry about the comparison again, but thats coming from someone with 28 (not 25) years of surfing experience, 20 of which were spent surfing one of the best point breaks in the world. <BR> <BR>As for the "attitude that many surfers have", there may be only a few with such attitudes. I often talk about wakesurfing to other surfers. The general rule is they have no idea what it is. They usually think I'm taking about wakeboarding. I always have to explain about dropping the rope, and most of them are surprised that it can be done. <BR> <BR>Just one man's opinion, trying my best to elevate our sport. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by jimgalloway on January 19, 2007)

Jim, <BR> <BR>"Just one man's opinion, trying my best to elevate our sport." <BR> <BR>and that is what I ask of all of us in the community. <BR> <BR>Certainly I respect your opinion and input. At NO time to I call or mean to infer that anyone is less than a stellar human being. <BR> <BR>The fact that it is common practice for surfers to talk disparagingly about others or other sports doesn't justify it, nor does it gain them any respect. Try this at home: After your wife prepares dinner be critical of it OR compare it to a meal you ate at McD's <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> and see how "elevated" your relationship becomes and then justify it with 'all surfers do it, don't take it seriously!' " <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Obviously that's a stretch because of the emotional investment of your wife in that example, but the premise remains the same...comparing and contrasting, refering to folks as kooks, etc doesn't serve us well, IMO. <BR> <BR>In particular Jerry is an icon in this sport, he practically invented it! <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> To suggest that his words or action can be dismissed isn't practical. When Jerry or for that matter Alan, speak, people will listen. I would just prefer that they speak GLOWINGLY ALWAYS about wakesurfing. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>Surfing in the ocean is great fun, wakesurfing is too. There is little commonality, IMO and I believe comparing and contrasting the two doesn't serve us well. <BR> <BR>Sorry I missed the 3 years <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> I need to use my 10 key.

Jeff, thanks for the spirited debate. My workload is starting to build, so I gotta get serious about one of my lesser priorities in life - BEING AN ACCOUNTANT. Take care. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by jimgalloway on January 19, 2007)

We need a few more years of global warming before ocean tides reach where I live. In the mean time I’m going to continue to practice on rivers and lakes. <BR> <BR>The surfing equipment costs are low and there are essentially no operating costs. Many, many people living near a major ocean can surf, so many that apparently the good surfing spots get crowded. <BR> <BR>Wakesurfing equipment costs (the boat) can be very high and operating cost can run maybe $100 a day for gas. Surfers throughout the country, even near the coast can wakesurf if they have the equipement. Given the right equipement I estimate there are as many or more surfing opportunities on rivers and lakes than there are in the oceans. The surfing experience is however different. <BR> <BR>You are unlikely to surf a mountain of a wave on a river or lake, but in the open ocean you are unlikely to have a 10 minute run in which you can string together dozens of moves. The similarities and differences of both sports are quite striking.

Is'nt surfing really a pursuit for life style? Wake surfing is just another subculture of surfing. Who cares what the surfers think. Do it all. If your getting out on the water its a start of living the dream. Think of wake surfing as small wave tow in. I find it exciting to be on the cutting edge of a new old sport and making this culture ours.

Yeah, Ed, I think we can make these comparisons all day and play all sorts of semantics with it. I think that an Office Audit with the IRS and Wakesurfing are very similar. At the onset, there is a significant amout of waiting for your turn. During this time, I converse with others waiting their turn, this socialization is usually the highlight. Typically, for many partcipants, the activity winds up being costly. <BR> <BR>Wakesurfing and snowboarding are very similar. Mostly manuevers involve rail-to-rail actions for the vast majority of participants. The investment in board specific equipment while not cheap, isn't HUGE either. Both have some amount of nose rocker. Both have some lamination over a core. Both involve physical activity. Both involve a board on water, although in different physical states. <BR> <BR>So...those arguments isn't all that valid, but specifically, it's the OMISSIONS in my arguments that is problematic for the sport of wakesurfing. If you completely omit skimboards and those riders, comparing only a limited aspect of the activity as I did above, it isn't representative of the sport and I think becomes highly prejudical, as well as, misinformed. <BR> <BR>Include all aspects, don't exclude or speak disparigingly of a specific segment of the discipline OR qualify it as such. (Same argument we deal with each year of folks proclaiming the 'coex' is the best board EVER, but they fail to mention - Oh yeah, it's the only board I've ridden. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> ) Don't compare and contrast if it's meaningless (IRS OFFICE AUDITS) and if you are considered a leader or expert in the field, shoulder the responsibility and act accordingly, or conversely say nothing. <BR> <BR>Surfing rocks. So does Wakesurfing. I don't think they need to be mutually exclusive, NOR does one need to be superior to the other. They are different and they BOTH rock!

Mac, god bless ya...but, again. Why isn't it a subculture of skimboarding, too? Why not think of it as the best liner ever for skimming? Why, do we as a group, practice this exclusionary behavior? <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/405884.jpg" alt="Upload">

Jeff, skimboarding is in there two. If I were a kid growing up near a skim beach. I would have been all over it. But back then I believe it was skim discing? I totaly respect the sport having tried it a few times with my brother in Maui. neither of us were walking to good the next day.We did bring it home and tried to surf it behind a 190 mastercraft. We had minimal success but did take note of its shape. the year, pre kids.

The majority of surfers I know also wakesurf or wakeboard when there is no swell. Like me they find it hard to stay out of the water. Granted if there is a nice swell in town they are not beating down my door to take the boat out. How about this..if you wake surf on a surf board we will call it wakesurfing. If you use a skim style board you can call it wakeskimming. <BR>Board More/Work Less! <BR>Wadd$

John's point assumes you live near the coast, that's a long days drive for me.

Ed, wouldn't that be like 1,500 miles? That would be quite the drive. <BR> <BR>John boy, I don't think I'm articulating this very well. It's wakesurfing. That's our sport, it encompasses fluid carving maneuvers on boards like your Shred Stixx, it <b>ALSO</b> encompasses shuv-it's on a 4-skim. It's the nature of the beast. You can't say, as Mac proposes - skimboards, or the rather unique Surf Skate, are included if there's NO mention or inclusion of them in the discussion. I understand that it requires a change in the field of reference for many folks. To segregate skimboards into a completely different sport is, IMO - back-of-the-bus treatment. It's wakesurfing, or maybe like Jerry suggested freeboarding. <BR> <BR>If you propose segregation, or you speak in terms of wakesurfing as being ONLY surfstyle, it's prejudical, IMO, and isn't representative of the sport as it exists today, or where some of the future development will head.

This is an interesting debate, but I believe the proverbial train has left the station. In my opinion the term Wakesurfing has already taken hold and even if we came up with a way better name, it might be just too late. (Jeff, don’t try to throw the fact that Wakeboarding was called Skurfing at me here because wakesurfing also had earlier names such as Free Boarding). It just feels like people have settled on Wakesurfing. <BR> <BR>So, the question remains: given that the name wakesurfing is clearly a derivative of surfing (for good or bad) how do you give the sport it's own identity? Also, do we need actively undertake this effort? <BR> <BR>The American Heritage Dictionary defines surfing as: To ride on or along (a wave) on a surfboard. <BR> <BR>Hey, that’s what we do (regardless of the style of your board). So do surfers and skimmers (skimmers throw their board at the wave and surfers paddle into it). It just so happens that our waves are man-made and generated by boats. How much different is that than going to Typhoon Lagoon where a huge machine creates the wave? Or that segment in Step into Liquid where those guys were riding tanker waves in Texas. Not much in my book. So, is it so bad that our sport has a direct tie-in to surfing? Windsurfers seem to have their own identity. They ride boards propelled by wind. <BR> <BR>At the end of the day, sometimes tying something new to something established makes explaining the new thing easier. When the motorcycle was invented, I’m sure people explained it as basically a BIKE WITH A MOTOR (because it was). Then later, it developed it’s own identity. As our sport continues to evolve and gain popularity (according to the WSIA, it’s the fastest growing segment in water sports) in my opinion, it will naturally create it’s own identity. If surfing purists want to look down their noses at what we do, so what. I think it’s fine to use the word surfing in describing the sport, because that’s what it is.

Again, I disagree. When you are amongst the majority, it's easy to be OK with the name and the culture that surrounds it. Although, I can be a part of the advocacy that pushes for equal representation for all styles and riders. <BR> <BR>To a large degree, I can understand the difficulty of the civil rights movement back in the 60's. It's NOT ok to say we allow blacks to ride public transit, they like it at the back of the bus. <BR> <BR>I agree Mark, the name won't change, I still dislike the "S" word in there, but I'm not going to change that. HOWEVER, I do believe that it's possible to raise awareness such that folks speak of wakesurfing in a manner that includes the likes of the Prop, 4skim, Telum and Surf Skate, as well as, Stixxstreme's, Blue Lakes, F-18's.

Thanx Mark, You saved me the typeing. Jeff, I am very impressed that you know 2 of those guys full names in my last blog. Now, for a free traction pad, can someone give us the full names of the other guys AND within 2 years, the years they started wakesurfing.

Jeff, I think you missed my point. The term surfing just means to ride some sort of board on some sort of wave. Even if you are riding a skim style board, by definition, you are still surfing. Hell, even if you are riding that pink door, you are still "surfing".

LOL - Jerry I love you man - I'm lucky to remember my own name and date of birth! <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>I'm creating my OWN sport of doorboarding!!!!! <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

Love you to Bro, But my money for the traction pad, is on Dennis. Heck, he grew up with those guys. I just got bullied by them!!!!!!

Prejudice and discrimination are negative manifestations of integrative power. Instead of bringing or holding people together, prejudice and discrimination push them apart. Ironically, even prejudice and discrimination imply some sort of relationship, however. If there is no relationship people would be completely unaware of another person's or group's existence. When there is any relationship at all--even a negative one--there is some integration. Kenneth Boulding referred to this as "disintegrative power"-"the integration that is achieved through hatred, fear, and the threat of a common enemy." <BR> <BR>While this is especially obvious and destructive when it occurs on a large scale--as it did in the Balkans, Somalia, Sri Lanka, or the Middle East--it also occurs on smaller scales as well, when one group holds negative stereotypes of another group and discriminates against members of that group based on those stereotypes. Excluding them by definition or that nonsense from surfline.com <BR> <BR>Why is it that it can't be boarding? Why is it that it can't be skimming? Why is it that "surfing" is the acceptable definition? <BR> <BR>I never in a MILLION years thought this would get so involved! <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

Jer, <BR> <BR>You're making the wise bet <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

I think you are going to have to check with Mr Webster on your last question. It just is what it is. Riding a board on a wave is surfing. Why sould anyone care what "stlye" or shape it is?

You don't if you're in the majority. If you're allowed to ride the bus, why do you care if you're relgated to the back?

Sorry Ed I didn't take into account there are other States in the Union that may not have an ocean near by. My bad. I do think we should have a sub-group of wakesurfing that encompasses the use of a door. With all due respect, I do believe Jeff should name it.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0>

Just jumping in here, so forgive me if I am repeating any passed posts. <BR>What about the new wave pool at Ron Jon Surf Shop in Orlando, 3 different pools all generating 3 differnt size waves. <BR> <BR>Or the Flow Rider in San Diego? <BR> <BR>How about Kelly Slater's $1 million dollar investment with Quicksilver (i believe) in a new wave pool on the drawing boards as we speak? <BR> <BR>What's your take on this Wikipedia Walker? <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0>

I believe Irvine, CA is # 3 in line to build a new wave pool or Flow Rider.

Growing up in the Midwest, surfing opportunities are not routinely available. Without wakesurfing I would probably never have a practical chance for any surfing at all. Heck, Ohio is so darn flat you might say that snowboarding in Ohio isn’t really snowboarding, much like someone might say that wakesurfing isn’t really surfing. <BR> <BR>Having success with wakesurfing I did try (key word try) surfing at Ocean City Maryland. The ocean was fairly placid the day I tried and the few times I caught the wave the nose of the board dug in the sand and so I slid off. So, I only have practiced 1/3 or Jerry’s surfing 3/3rds. <BR> <BR>If you don’t live near the ocean when your, say eight years old, I’m guessing chances that you are going to pick up surfing later in life are low. So, there I was in 2005, I was 45 years old, I had never ever surfed before, I tried to surf a “Thruster”, my kneeboard, and my wakeboard. I finally bought a Broadcast 5.6 and I was off and running, or well surfing. <BR> <BR>Surfing in the ocean looks exhilarating but full of variables, I’m sure the variables are in some way part of the attraction. Wakesurfing by contrast is more predictable, I know what wake I’m going to ride, I’ll catch the wave every time, there aren’t any Jellies, or sharks, but I do have to watch for the ODNR and fishermen. Given the steady persistent wake it seems like you should be able to develop and perfect a wide set of skills for a well defined wave. The amplitude of the performance might be different than on the ocean but there’s a required skill. Some of the Indiana riders I met last year said that they like the challenge of riding on a choppy lake day, the chop adds a variable. <BR> <BR>I do run into surfers displaced to the Midwest from time to time. Most meet the idea of surfing in lakes and rivers with a fair amount of surprise, after a moment they grow a big grin on their faces and want to give it a try. <BR> <BR>Either way getting away from day to day activities and hanging out with friends on a scenic lake is a tremendous diversion and a lot of fun.

<a href="http://www.ronjonsurfpark.com" target="_blank">www.ronjonsurfpark.com</a>

Hey Alan, have you ever surfed Typhoon Lagoon? I surfed it at max size in April. The line-up is so mushy, wakesurfing is way way better. (How's that for comparison shopping). I hope they figure out a better way to do it at Ron Jon's!

I only did the flow rider a bunch of times. Check out the site I posted. It looks to be sik. take a tour of it on line. I'm sure they will get it right this time.

Alan I don't know what you're asking or even how it relates to the discussion at hand. Could you clarify for me, please?