Looking to buy a wakeboard boat in the High $20K to low $30K price range. Do not know what is the best boat for me in that price range (I have been looking at 00 Xstars and 00 Pro Airs) <BR>Your opinion please

00 x stars are great also 01 02 vlxs are great look at those 2

Derik, <BR>I dropped you an email regarding Sangers her in Canada. Please let me know if you have any questions. <BR> <BR>Jase Zwarich <BR>

Hey Derek I have an 2000 super air for sale if your interested. I live in Vancouver bc it is around your price range

If you are smart you can get a 2004 Sanger V210 right now (New)...instead of buying used others....Rich (916)631-8666 I think still has 1 or 2 left...

can you really get a 2004 V210 new for the low $30k range??? That's an awesome deal if true. Derik look at 00 super sports they have the same hull as the super air nautique. It'll get you a better wake than the 00 pro airs. You might be able to find an MC prostar 205V for that price which is the same as an older X-star.

We almost picked one up in Aug when we bought our 215 but the deal on the 215 we couldnt pass up, I was just at the dealorship and of the 3 they had I believe they still had 1 or 2 left call and ask Rich he'll know..

i would never buy a sanger unless you are planning on being stranded on an island where you need to build a signal fire, then i would buy the sanger, to use all the wood in it. <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/203368.jpg" alt="">

Hahahahahahaha ANother great post by Greg....!!!!!!!!!!!

Greg, <BR> <BR>I know it's not a busy time of year for a wakeboard salesman and I know that most 19 year olds are on school holidays, but don't you and Norm have better things to do then post bashings of everything that is not a Mastercraft? Your slam on Sangers is very immature, similar to Norm's thread that was removed from this board yesterday. Here is a little advice: IF YOU DON'T HAVE SOMETHING NICE TO SAY THEN DON'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL. <BR> <BR>In reality I am not a big Sanger fan but I feel they make a nice product and it really bothers me when people bash them because these people do not understand how effective wood can be used as a structural member. A couple of my friends have Sangers and love them. <BR> <BR>For example wood ladders are typically lighter and stronger then their fiberglass equivalents. Up until about 10 years ago all the manufacturers used wood for the structural components in thier boats. <BR> <BR>Sanger is a fine boat company with a long heritage making race boats capable of running 100+mph. I do not think any of the big three can show this history where the boat owners life depended on the performance and structural integrity of the boat. <BR> <BR>Derik, <BR>If you plan on taking care of your boat and don't plan on letting rainwater collect over the floorboards then you should not worry about the wood used in a Sanger. Since you are already familiar with Mastercraft you can't go wrong there if you can find one at your price point. <BR> <BR>In my personal opinion, Skiers Choice (Supra/Moomba) might give you a little more bang for the buck when you are below $40k range. <BR> <BR>We are talking US$ right?

From one Derek to another, you can get an amazing 4 GPH towboat from the low $20K's now - check out <a href="http://www.epicmarine.com" target="_blank">www.epicmarine.com</a>, or search boat trader for Toyota - Epic E21, E22 or X22 d-drives or S22 or SX v-drives. Two cents.

zIf I can only remember the thread where the guy posted about how his windshield broke loose after hitting a wake in a mastercraft....things that make you go hmmmmmmmm. Mc is stil a good boat. Just not for me.

Gary that was me. Not only did it break the window loose but we have two stress fractures in the hull. They are in the gel coat but from hitting a wake? hmmmmmm is right. We love our M-Craft but i know I've been on better boats. <BR> <BR>The wood discussion has been made as well, I was previously negatively biased towards it. Someone explained how the wood is encapsulated &amp; not only will it not burn(Greg), but it will also not absorb water no matter how long water sits on it. There's a reason it's used (I mean who here bought a DNA or Ultracore board?) Wood has incredible strength to weight properties that makes it a viable material in boat building. A Sanger is a great boat &amp; is an absolute blast to drive, incredible wake &amp; sports car handling that beats any other V-Drive boat I've driven, which is every one except an X-80 &amp; a Toyota.

Not to start a war but stuff happens on all boats!! <BR>There is a reason why MC has the best resale value!! <BR>Simply put,It is the best built boat that's why the resale value is higher then any boat. <BR>MC ~ hand laid fiberglass <BR> <BR>any other ~ CHOPPER GUN??? things that make you go hhmmmm?? <BR> <BR>Chopper gun = Air bubbles in the resin!! things that make you go hhmmm???

BigEd.... <BR> <BR>Ya know, I love opinions and like I have told you before, everyones got em..! But please when you make a statement like "MC ~ hand laid fiberglass <BR>any other ~ CHOPPER GUN??? things that make you go hhmmmm??" make sure its acurate.. Direct from the SUPRA website "All Supra's fiberglass is completely hand-laid for consistency, ensuring superb strength and durability." If you dont trust me, got check the site for yourself... <BR> <BR>Sean <BR>

Stephen ~ you are correct on encapsulating the wood. The thing they don't tell you is what happens when you screw something into it? I know they don't seal around the screw and after time that can give you a big problem. <BR> <BR>There is only one reason all the major 3 went away from wood... it WILL rot. <BR> <BR>Please don't think I am bashing Sangers, if fact I really like them. I just think they need to step it up a little more.

you might be right but again not to start a war they were comparing sangers and MC,apples-oranges.Supra also nice boat but there is a reason why they are not the top 3. <BR> <BR>SEAN,I really don't know why you keep trying to talk crap!! Get off my D$%#@K and tell you biatch to come here!!

BigEd??????? <BR> <BR>WHAT???????? Not talking CRAP at all.. Just stating simple facts... Obviously something you know nothing about. Get off what?????????? Hmm!

Big Ed, have you driven &amp; ridden behind any 03+ Sangers? Just curious, I've been in, driven and ridden 04-05 X-2's and don't think they are an apples &amp; oranges comparison.

Darren ~ WOOD BOAT AND ALL FIBERGLASS BOAT IS COMPARING APPLES &amp; ORANGES!!!<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/wink.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>SANGERS ~ THOUGH WOOD IN THE BOAT STILL THINK BEST BOAT FOR THE BUCK!!ofcourse IMO

Now this is my opinion. MC is in the top three because of thier name. Their boats don't make miracle wakes as other people claim, yet you are paying a lot more for them, because of the name. A couple years ago I went to a product training class from another manufacturer (which happened to be one of the OTHER top 3) and we compared them directly to MC. The MC had many things that I would consider stupid or idiotic. Just a couple as an example. In the X-9, the rear seat cushion lifts of so you can make the rear sun deck larger. The only problem is that when you sat on it, it bowed like 5 inches. All the driver seats that rotated, rotated just a few inches, before the back of the seat hit the driver side freeboard. <BR> <BR>I just think that there are boats companies out there that are making equally great boats. MC has done a great job, but I think there are boats out there that will give you more for what you pay for. Is the X STAR's wake really awe-inspiring?? No, I don't think so. Yet you will be paying 75K for one. <BR> <BR>Again just my opinion. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

Brandon, how are you paying a lot more for MC's? We had this discussion about Malibu's new V-ride a week or so ago. I bought a new 2005 X-2 for the same price or less than a 2005 V-ride. <BR> <BR>That biggest misconception out there these days is that MC's are so much more than everyone else. The V-ride is less on the base price but it's completely useless until you add the options that Malibu took off as standard when it was the VLX. <BR> <BR>The Supras and MC's are really the only boats that are 100% hand laid. All the rest use Choppers. I don't know anything about Sangers, however, I don't understand why they're ok but when Tige used wood they were slammed for it. At this point in time, if you're still using wood, it's going to hurt your resale vs everyone else. <BR> <BR>When I priced out boats a couple of months ago, this is the order they came in <BR> <BR>Sanger, could have got a great deal. couple of thousand less then X-2 and v-ride <BR> <BR>all within about 3k of each other <BR>X-2 <BR>V-Ride <BR>Supra 21v <BR>Centurian <BR> <BR>couple of g's more <BR>22V <BR>new VLX <BR>SANTE <BR> <BR> <BR>

Pat I second that!! <BR> <BR>REALLY you tell me another boat that can compare from the rubrail UP!!And the only other boat that can compare from rubrail down is 210 SAN!! <BR> <BR>BOTTOM LINE_________________________________ <BR> <BR>POSER ~ though the new malibu that you rode behind the red and black one.. SWEEET

So is that a no Ed? You haven't ridden one yet? If you come this way you are welcome anytime. <BR> <BR>Personally IMO the dissection of boat construction is all marketing BS. A lot of people have been sucked in by the marketing machine driven by the big 3. Building with wood when done properly is <b>more expensive</b> &amp; gives a stronger yet softer ride than other methods. Sanger is 100% handlaid, chopper for seat bases only. <BR> <BR>I think in the past Tige got the bash for a combination of reasons: <BR>The Tige' marketing machine wrote checks the boats couldn't cash. <BR>The build quality wasn't up to par. <BR>They are big enough to figure on the radar of other boat manfs.

Darren ~ That is a no,but in reality I plan to have new boat every few years so them building with wood doesn't effect me in anyway cuzz a person doesn't start having problems with it for about 10 to 15 years.It effects the resale value and that was my whole statement.MC have the best resale value!! YES better than SAN!!

I love my Malibu VLX. BUT...Any wake is a great one if it what you are behind at the time. Besides...I dont plan to be competing with Parks or Byerly any time soon, so I'm down with anyone who wants to give me a pull! Hey Gary...I LOVE your Sanger!

Even boats that are "100% hand laid" still have chopped glass in their construction. The only difference is it was applied in cloth form rather than out of a gun. Once it is applied, it is rolled out by hand whether it came out of a gun or not. Most manufacturers choose the gun method because you get a much more accurate ratio of resin to glass. Plus you know that the glass is fully saturated, no way to know if the resin evenly soaked all the way through the many layers of the cloth. Once this is done, the structural glass is laid, by hand, in all quality built boats. The bottom line is, the "hand laid" thing is a marketing ploy.

Forgot to add at the end, Find the boat and the dealer that is right for you. Don't fall in to all of the hype from anybody. Big Ed loves his X-2 for the reasons that made it the right boat for him, I love Malibu's for reasons that make it right for me. It's all good, just go check 'em all out and pick the one that's right for you.

Travis said <BR>"Once this is done, the structural glass is laid, by hand, in all quality built boats" <BR> <BR>So what you're saying is that the hand laid portion of the boats is stronger than Chopper? So if my whole boat is hand laid, wouldn't it be stronger than one that is chopper and hand laid? You said above that the structural portion of the boats are hand laid and not chopper.

Ed, I among others can attest that you dont know what you are talking about. For instance; <BR>Resale values for 2000 model year: <BR>MC Xstar = 29260 <BR>Malibu VLX = 28600 <BR>SAN = 30490 <BR>These values are from NADA.Keep in mind, in 2000 the VLX didnt come standard with a tower whereas the SAN and MC did. The tower for 2000 model year is listed @ 1260.00. So in reality, SAN would be #1, Malibu would be #2, MC #3. Then when you look at the factor of how much the consumer actually paid for the boat new,and the Malibu was much less to begin with, I'd have to say that it has the best resale value of the top 3. <BR>Can you say ownership goggles?

Bill <BR> <BR>NADA guides are crap! <BR> <BR>Talk to a dealer about their black books. The NADA guide said I should be getting 37-42k for my X-10. There was no way! I think all they do is take the average list price of each boat on boat trader and say that's what they are worth. Did you pay the list price when you bought your boat? If so, I feel sorry for ya. <BR> <BR>Supply Demand if one boat is in more demand it'll cost more. Compare a 2002 malibu sunsetter to a X-star and the Xstar wins hands down in resale. Compare a VLX to an X-5 and the VLX wins hands down. My point is unless you're using what the boat actually sold for, vs what they acutally paid there is no way you can calculate the resale value. I didn't pay list price for my boat either, how does NADA know what I paid then?

You can't compare a sunsetter to an x star. Totally different boats. You would have to compare the xstar to the vlx and the sunsetter to the x5.

Pat, Why would you compare a Sunsetter to a Xstar and VLX to X5. These boats are not even in the same class. If you would like, we can compare the Wakesetter DD to a X5. MSRP is the only real tool you can use to determine how much resale a boat is actually retaining, not the price someone claims they got to try to jusify their negotiating skiils.

If you want to know why MC and Malibu are one of the most sold and so called higher re-sale, talk to their marketing department. The bread and butter of the companys. Bottom line great boats not disputed, the best and or better than the rest, questionable... look at the re-sale as a overall percentage and they are all about equal. Yes you will find prices in the used adds up and down the scale, I would want as much as I could get for my boat to. What is the next sucker willing to pay. I know a boat isn't worth 50-60k but thats the prices for new. <BR>If you don't know the true advantages to materials used besides what the commissioned salesman says then shut up till you find out the facts. both ways have advantages and disavantages, both produce quality boats. just get in and drive.

Pat - what I was getting at was that chopped glass is chopped glass whether it came out of a gun or off of a roll. (yes, you can "hand lay" chopped glass) None of the tournament boats built today rely on chopped glass for stucture. Yes, the hand laid portions are stronger because it is an entirely different type of fiberglass.

Bill <BR>My point is each company will have different resale values within their own boats. The X-5 will be different than an X-2, as will be a Sunsetter vs VLX. <BR> <BR>Have you ever bought a new boat or car? MSRP is a joke, I'm paying 12k less than what my MSRP is on the purchase order. If you go from the MSRP vs what I sell it for in two years you're telling me I'll lose 30%-40%? I don't think so. There's no way they can't calculate a resale value when they don't know what you paid for it new and what you sold it for. <BR> <BR>Brandon, <BR>"MC is in the top three because of thier name". Have you looked at one of their boats? How is your Malibu's back seat attached to the boat? If you want to pick apart boats and all you can come up with is that the drivers chair doesn't swivel all the way that's a pretty weak arguement. <BR> <BR>Travis, <BR>Even if none of the boats out there rely on chopped glass for their strength why does anyone use the chopper gun then? Doesn't it make sense that you would use 100% hand laid to get the most strength in a boat? Sounds like cutting corners to me?

Pat - what I'm trying to say is there is no strength difference between chopped mat and chopped strand out of a gun. In my first post, I gave a couple of reasons why most manf.'s use the gun (better mix ratio/more thorough saturation of the glass). You have a higher risk of blisters and/or air voids with the matting. The only real advantage to the matting is being able to say "100% hand laid", which creates percieved value in the consumer's mind. They're not cutting corners, they're building the boat the way they feel it should be built. If both techniques of glassing are done properly they are fairly equal in strength/quality. I agree 100% that the MSRP thing is a joke...

Derik: <BR>Greg Here my two cents, besides all this fiberglass issues, I have had Mastercrafts and now less expensive boats Supreme becuase or school for me,and I can say you know the the quaility with wake shape, and crispness. Also with interior construction and durability: however these so called less expensive brands have really stepped it up in quaility I have had zero problems 02 V-Pro Sky 220 180 hours. But Mastercraft Malibu and Nautique are excellent boats if you can afford it go with them. My Two cents good luck. P.S. Test drive, Test drive, Test drive

Travis <BR> <BR>If the Chopper gun is just as strong why wouldn't everyone just use the chopper for everthing? It's gotta be cheaper and less labour intensive right? The fact the everyone hand lays the fiberglass where the boat needs the most strength leaves me to believe that hand laid is stronger than chopper. So if the entire boat is hand laid it only makes sense to me that the 100% would be a stiffer and a stonger hull?

Derik back to the original helping you pick a boat for 30k I would look at a late model (02??) Sanger V210. <BR>They are very very well constructed. The reputation that they have and are building on for throwing a killer wake is going to mean that they will always have good resale ...wood or no wood. <BR> <BR>all the seats are hinged, theres heaps of storage heaps of cabin room. and the wake is something else..nice, huge, big butte lip that boosts you. <BR>It's handling is so close to DD its not funny. <BR>You need to check one out for yourself even if its to rule it out. <BR> <BR>I looked at the X2, Tige, SANTE, and V210 <BR>It came down to the X2 and the Sanger <BR>I have a mate (ralph) above who owns a Sanger and I loved the X2 so I went with the X2. <BR> <BR>But if I had 30k as my budget it'd probably be a Sanger <BR> http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/8/201817.html?1102303623 <BR>see if he'll come down a couple of K <BR> <BR>(Message edited by powdrhound on December 21, 2004) <BR> <BR>(Message edited by powdrhound on December 21, 2004)

Bill ~ You don't know crap you inbreed!!X-2 has a better resale value then the VLX or the SAN!!

Travis ~ You are correct!! <BR> <BR> <BR>LOVE MY X-2<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0>

Bla...bla...bla.....chopper gun..... Bla...bla...bla....resale value.... Bla...bla....bla....wood.... Bla...bla....bla...the best boat is made by the company that makes my boat..... Bla...bla...bla...you don't know what you are talking about because this is what I read, my sales person told me, I say because I don't want to feel I didn't make the best choice.... Bla...bla....bal....Santa is coming in 3 more days.... <BR> <BR>Classic stuff here.... <BR> <BR>Derek, best of luck in your boat search. I am sure you will find a boat you love and will soon have ownership goggles of your own. My advice....buy a boat that is well taken care of(looks like you are looking used) and brings you uninterrupted days on the lake. That is the best boat out there. <BR> <BR>E.J.

Love the post EJ, that is pretty much how I interpret some of these "boat war" threads. Some people on this thread have some serious ownership goggles on.

My goggles keep saying Correct Craft.

Ed, You really need to get a girlfriend. Posting @ 2:30 in the morning, seems this has consumed your life. "X-2 has better resale value than the VLX or SAN". Just keep telling yourself that.

THAT'S WHEN I CAME FROM WORK YOU F' INBREED!! <BR>You don't work and live with you mom you loser!!As far as we know you are probably porkin her! <BR> <BR>Never bashed on any boat manufac. just stated MY opinion.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>As far as we know you are probably porkin her!<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>hahaha too funny <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/biggrin.gif" border=0>can't stop laughing <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/lol.gif" border=0>, stomach hurts <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/proud.gif" border=0>, please stop hahahaha <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/biggrin.gif" border=0>... <BR> <BR> <BR>Still crying <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/rofl.gif" border=0><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/lol.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>(Message edited by antbug on December 22, 2004)

Derik, I just bought my first wakeboard boat this year. I thought that 25 to 30k would be enough. I found out quickly that the only boats that were in that price range were used. I upped my budget to 40k and still was amazed at how expensive these boats are, quality used but still not new. You need to look at many many boats to get a feel for quality. You need to read these posts to get inside information that you wont get from your salesman. I have been monitering this site for a while before giving my 2cts, even with the boat wars there is quality information if you read between the lines. Visualize what you want and make that dream come true! You will love the journey. peace

Well said Tom!!

Tom, <BR>I agree with everything you said except that you can't get a quality wakeboard boat, new for under 40K. I and many others have done so.

You can score a Moomba fitted nicely for well under 40g. Moomba's have a great wake too.

WakeShoe, You know what they say about a fool and his money?? That would be me.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/wink.gif" border=0>