Heck, the only reason I come into this thread is to watch people get all riled up. :D

The whole point of coming here is to get opposing points of view. I don't have anyone in my main circle of friends who's crazy enough to consider voting for Trump so where else am I going to get my data points :)

Seriously though I do appreciate the reasoned and wel thought out opposing points of view (and do my best to ignore the people who can't do simple math or understand basic concepts like debt and deficit, or even up and down). Although I will stop short of Grant's wish for a violent death for those who think differently - instead I hope that Grant et al will reflect on Obama's 50+% approval rating and 60% favorability rating. Pretty crazy for a lame duck pres who has spent 8 years destroying the very fiber of our country or whatever it is the gop candidates are laughably claiming this week (when they're not busy making dick jokes on national television in front of children). Bush was at 14% at he same point - yikes. There's plenty to criticize Obama about but regardless of anyone personal feelings on the matter, it's pretty clear that the nation at large is realizing that compared to what's coming on both sides of the aisle, Obama looks better and better every day.

Wes: I hope you know I was kidding because I know you are! :)

Looking from the outside Obama has a class to him and a likability which the all the other candidates sorely lack. I can't imagine having Trump as my president, the cringe factor is way to high. I would rather watch "The Bachelor" with the misses than see Trump on telly representing me.

Well this is a clear attack on second amendment rights, I'm sure we can all agree:

http://thehill.com/policy/national-s...-in-convention

Ralph; I agree 100% Obama is one smooth talking commander in chief. Marco Rubio was a great smooth talker as well as Ted! All smooth as a river rock. Trump OMG the way he talks and the things he says is sometime is like nails on the chalk board at times Total train wreck,

What I find refreshing is real talk! Trump is no Obama for sure. But I feel he is the LEAST dishonest out of all the candidates left. Hillary only thing IMO worse then her is Sanders. Omg that decrepetid old coger. LOL

I don't think I would class trump as trustworthy. Seems to me he is just playing the game, someone told him he couldn't be president and he is stamping his feet and saying I'll show you! Hillary is the same, just less hamfisted at it.

Lol ok Grant, the question is which Trump is gonna show up on any given day? Not exactly the trustworthy consistency you'd hope for in the white house... Start at 2:30:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/WpKiP_gmDS8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Wes: the rumor is the Gun debate about the ability to Cary at the GOP convention is something the Left if drumming up. Other outlets are reporting its a non issue. I'm in sure about it validity and frankly don't care. As a side note Everyone should watch "House of Cards" and see the fictional doushe baggery both sides dish out. It opens your mind when it comes to the story's like this that just happe to pop up right at the right time!!! LOL. politics 535 people decididing the fate of millions!

Back in the 60's you voted for the candidate with the best ideas. The one who led by example. A role model for all American citizens. Now a days everyone is choosing sides. Face it , they are all a bunch of self centered con people. Taking your hard earned money and wasting it as they please. The citizens are no better. Taking sides and fighting like school children. Have you noticed none of the candidates answer your questions or discuss their plan for a better United States of America? They just tell you things that sound good and stir your emotions. Then everyone votes for someone they really don't want to represent them because the other choice was even worse. If everyone would finally vote for Mickey Mouse we would be better off. At least they would have to come up with new candidates that might be better choices. This crop of candidates leaves something to be desired for sure.

Grant, of course it was lol... But that was kind of the point - some guy took exact NRA/gop talking points and put them into a petition to expose the hypocrisy of the whole thing. If they really believed what they said they'd have no problem allowing armed Trump supporters in while they do everything they can to screw him out of the nomination haha

House of cards is amazing telly. I'm sure Clair Underwood is based on Hillary Clinton. Only sexed up a bit. Ok, sexed up a lot.

She's hot (Wright, not Clinton lol) and the show is fun

"Trump is no Obama for sure. But I feel he is the LEAST dishonest out of all the candidates left."

Good thing you aren't putting money on that or you'd be broke.

http://www.dailynewsbin.com/news/fac...ponents/24196/

"Back in the 60's you voted for the candidate with the best ideas."

And we got LBJ who murdered 10's of thousands of Americans fighting a war of no strategic interest to the US. All the while lying to the American public about how great it was going. Then we got Nixon who committed treason to win the executive office. And later got impeached for ties to another crime.... Watergate

Nostalgia is a great thing.

One word summarizing my view of each...

OBAMA - limp
BUSH - dim
CLINTON - slick
BUSH - dull
REAGAN - flare
CARTER - basic
FORD - simple

My #1 is Reagan and #2 is Clinton. But, I detest Hillary.

One good thing Trump did was destroy Jeb Bush the candidate. Jeb is a total zero.

You do realize that Sanders is less than 5 years older than Donald Trump?

I guess a ton of spray tan and orange make-up is a fountain of youth to Grant.

Yeah Obama's so limp that conservatives called him a dictator.

I certainly understand the Trump hate or dislike. Plenty to dislike and I sure can't imagine him as president and wouldn't vote for him.

But on the other hand, when someone says Hillary is an improvement or would be greaty, they need their head examined. She is everything that is wrong with politics in this country.

She is corrupt as hell and should be in prison.
Lifelong politician that has provided nothing of benefit to society.
Made a career being Bill's whore for political gain... which is a horrible role model for girls and women.

She is not worthy of being president any more than Trump is.

Vote DeezNutz for the win... we are all losing this election. :banghead:

"Lifelong politician that has provided nothing of benefit to society."

Blaming Hillary for you and your fellow citizens voting those same politicians for a lifetime. That's what's wrong with this country.

What do you guys think of this? Think it's real or photoshopped/word spoofed? GOP going with the urgency theme...

^^^ My guess is the $25 you donate to the GOP parts some how go's to some offshore account and swings threw Russia and then some how ends up in Hillarys account!


That woman is one tough bird. It reminds me of the rocky quote. It's Not how har you can hit Its how hard you can hit back.

I will admit this No one can take damage and deflect it like Hillary. That woman can re direct and mis direct like no other. For sure she gets the gold medal at stone walling and deflecting questions and being accountable for Anything. She is the poster child for everything wrong with America she will pander to any group that will or could get her elected. As soon as she gets in office she will all be laughing at us all. in my opinion if you vote for Hillary you have Zero right to bitch about the Business as usuall Washington and do nothing and get a handsome reward for doing Nothing!

^ My guess is the $25 you donate to the GOP parts some how go's to some offshore account and swings threw Russia and then some how ends up in Hillarys account!


That woman is one tough bird. It reminds me of the rocky quote. It's Not how har you can hit Its how hard you can hit back.

I will admit this No one can take damage and deflect it like Hillary. That woman can re direct and mis direct like no other. For sure she gets the gold medal at stone walling and deflecting questions and being accountable for Anything. She is the poster child for everything wrong with America she will pander to any group that will or could get her elected. As soon as she gets in office she will all be laughing at us all. in my opinion if you vote for Hillary you have Zero right to bitch about the Business as usuall Washington and do nothing and get a handsome reward for doing Nothing status .

Hilary is caustic. She is like drinking gasoline.

Bernie is doing well only because Hillary sucks bad. As a fan of regulated capitalism, I am no fan of socialism. Otherwise I would like Bernie.

Other than his demeanor I really like Trump. It would be great to have a strong outsider president to shake up the pathetic system that has us sold out by the lobbyists.

Yeah, but putting one of those lobbyists in the White house may not be the best idea either.

So you believe that parents should pay tuition for sending their kids to 1st through 12th grade? And that emergency rooms should turn away the sick and injured if they can't provide means to prove their ability to pay?

How many lies has Trump told about his campaign manager's assault so far? I count 3.

There is a government program that will pay for my ER visits? **** I have been doing it wrong.

Do you believe we should tax people at 90% and provide free college to everyone?

FREE sucks. Anything free is abused.

Public schools would be much better attended if parents had to invest in their kid's education. I don't know how to do it but there should be some way to force parents to care. Perhaps pay with a subsidy for the poor and a rebate for good behavior/attendance.

I believe in a healthy minimum wage and a progressive income tax not to exceed 50%. IMO, everyone should be able to take home at least 1/2 of every dollar they make. We have most of this today.

^^^^^ GD, I'm ever so slowly coming around to this. People try to succeed at things that they are invested in.

Forcing people to care is very tough, and one problem we have is that we, as a society, NEED all kids to go to school, even the disruptive terrible ones. School is a way to impose social conformity and cohesion. Humans don't emerge from the womb pledging allegiance or reading or cypherin'. If we just cut a whole class of people out of school, what do they become for society down the road? It can't be good.

We already lure kids to school with free food (for those who qualify financially). We give tax credits for having dependents. I'm not sure we have the $$$ to make meaningful tax rebates based on school performance, but I honestly don't hate that idea. It does run the risk of creating one more social welfare program, no matter how well intentioned...

These countries aren't doing too bad. Although being smaller is certainly part of the reason.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/geeg45edkjh/1-denmark/

Either make people pay to get in (invest) our get paid for doing well (profit). This is capitalism. This is harnessing greed for benefit.

We in the USA work too hard to support a massive military, a massive underclass, a massive government and bad trade deals.

Bernie is popular because he is going to take the money from the super rich and give it to the poor. This is great until you run out of money to take.

Trump is popular because he is going to keep money in the USA for greater opportunity. This is a much better plan. But, unfortunately, Trump has some demeanor issues.

King of the straw man here. Neither of the two items you mentioned are part of anyone's argument.

It's clear to me that you are responding to my question. But I am not remotely suggesting that people be taxed at 90% or that there are programs that specifically give you free ER treatment. You posed those arguments because you are unable to respond to my questions in a manner that will support your beliefs without making you look stupid. But straw man arguments also make you look stupid.

Love a good strawman. In NZ we have top tax rate of 36% above 70k and universal sales tax of 15%. We have pretty much free hospital care and schooling. You pay a top up fee of $40 to visit the doctor for non crisis stuff. You get unemployment benefit of around $350 per week after 6 weeks of unemployment. I think the tax/benefit balance is pretty good to be honest.

I generally agree with all of that. But you apparently believe that some socialism is desirable. Which is also what I believe.

The argument isn't whether socialism or capitalism is bad or good. The argument is where on the sliding scale is the appropriate spot. Therefore it's apparent that those who are on either end of the scale are not in agreement with either of us.

I don't think Bernie has made a platform out of taking rich peoples assets. He has indicated that a raise in taxes on earnings is warranted for universal HC and education. Considering I pay about 10K a year for HC and estimates for my tax increase are around $7K, I'd say that not bad. The bottom line is that universal HC is unlikely to benefit me. I'd be on medicare by the time it got implemented.

I agree that Trump has indicated tariffs for imported goods. Which is the most obvious path to a solution of the trade deficit. Unfortunately this is a double edged sword and I believe that making brash decisions as he seems prone to do could be disastrous. The guy also lies without concern for how conspicuous his lies are. I heard it said that the quality of a lie depends on how much respect you have for the people you lie to. IOW, if someone respects you they will attempt to craft believable lies. If they don't they aren't concerned about how obvious their lies are. Trump just says anything to deflect you into shutting up out of frustration.

I don't think Hillary is honest. We know who lying Ted is. Trumps a business man so he's almost as good a liar as Hillary. Really Sanders and Kasich are the only decent choices and they are lagging in the polls and electors.

Super stoked I'm not having an abortion anytime soon, would hate to get punished for it.

I hope any one criticizing Trump for lying is not also supporting or voting for Hillary. :eek:

They are both a giant POS.

GD was talking about his distaste for Socialism and Bernie. You brought up the fact that we have socialistic programs here already. I was making the point that Bernie has touted a 90% tax bracket(which he has since backed off) and free college education and asked if you support that.

No I don't support a 90% tax bracket. Not only do I not align 100% with any politician, apparently even Bernie doesn't believe that we need a 90% bracket. But I do believe in tuition free higher education. Or at the very least more cost containment in tuition of higher education. Bankruptcy proof loans to children for education should be eliminated immediately. If that results in a traumatic financial impact on the institutions and falling enrollment, then it will IMO ultimately demonstrate proof that subverting the free market w/o cost controls is the root of hyperinflation in college costs.

WRT to the comment about the ER, there is a law (govt program?) that requires hospitals that take medicare to accept people in the ER w/o respect to their ability to pay. Unless you are willing to leave the sick and injured on the street and believe that 1-12 education should only go to those who are willing to pay out of pocket, then you believe in socialism.

I saw an interview with Bernie where he did support it. He has since backed off of it as it would have been political suicide.

I believe they are required to treat them, but they are still responsible for costs(although its often written off through the hospitals insurance). As far as education goes, its important that everyone has a basic education in life(1-12) and I support that form of socialism(or moral responsibility if you will), but do not believe in socialism on a broader scale. There will always be things that need to be handled as a collective. I also believe keeping those things to a minimum is also important.

If you require a business to service anyone regardless of ability to pay, then it's socialism. Same wrt to 1-12 education. Basically socialism stems partly from people's belief in moral responsibility, and partly from a sense that govt serves the general welfare of it's citizens. Once you admit that you believe in socialism then it's simply a matter of agreement over what should be socialized and how much. It's those claim socialism is wrong, believe in socialism in education and HC, yet attempt to conceal that belief who are willfully ignorant.

I believe that an educated population is a matter of national security. Just as military spending is a matter of national security. We are clearly above all other countries wrt military. Yet we are behind many countries wrt education. That supports the argument that we need to invest more in higher education.

There is one counter to the socialism argument in HC ER, but I highly doubt anyone could come up with it. The reason is because it's too nuanced and requires a progressive inclined mind to come up with it.

For those who follow Trump's position of charging our allies for the military benefits they receive, let's assume they say "no thanks." Do we just bring the Navy home then? And won't Russia or China fill that void?

In the past I've sorta thought that our allies would pick up the slack. But what if in turn they look to China or Russia to do their bidding for them instead? Are we still better off?

Tariff's are definitely a double edged sword. We did this in like 2009 on Chinese made tires. What happened then was the Chinese tires were the same price as the premium brands. The premium brands said "no way are we keeping our tires that price, we are better than them" so they raised their prices too. Consumer's didn't benefit but tire companies did.:banghead:

Cheaper products vs jobs.

Did you know that a USA built car imported to China will double or triple in price?

Unlike the USA, China protects their workers and works deals that benefit their economy.

Is that because of tariff's or the laws of supply and demand?

Yeah, but the bottom line is that if we protect our economy so that we stem the flow of money out of it, consumer prices will have to rise. It's an inevitable consequence. In theory this should enable domestic manufacturers to make cheap equivalent tires and compete with the Chinese versions. I personally believe that the correct approach is to frame the issue as one of the trade deficit. If foreign countries with low standards for worker safety, retirement, environment,etc... i.e. the things that domestic companies are burdened by, can through cooperation find innovative ways to stem the deficit then we wouldn't have to tariff. IOW, ideally they would adopt better environmental regulation, minimum wages, retirement safety nets, health care, etc for their people. If they don't then we would have to tariff their products according to the disparity in their standards and ours. These countries polluting the planet are a threat to their people now, but really a global issue down the road.

The trade deficit is a trifecta that depletes our economy, causes govt debt, and reduces employment opportunities for people of all levels of education.

Are you being serious with this statement?

Taxes Timmy. Protectionism. Working deals in their favor. Unlike the USA who gives it away and lets everyone roll us over.

Yeah, saying China's trade policy is designed to protect their workers is like saying that American's buy cheap imported stuff to destroy the domestic economy. Both consequences of the policy, but not really the goal.

Of all of the crazy things Trump has said (and there have been so many) I am really surprised that the thing that seems to be taking the wind out of his sails is that if abortion were hypothetically illegal women should be punished for having illegal abortions.

Has there been a big shift in nuanced thinking by the right to life crowd, where we blame the doctors and the women are victims? I thought that the whole abortion clinic protest thing was about shaming the women who visit the clinics, not elevating them to victimhood?

Very strange. Trumps answer on this one seems not unreasonable to me (assuming as he was asked to that abortion is in fact illegal). What am I missing?

The abortion industry is a for profit model. Planned Parenthood will lie to women and have scripts to convince women to have an abortion. There have been former planned parenthood operators that have moved on from that industry who have spilled the beans.

The abortion clinic protesters are a pretty low minority of the folks. Majority are not the protest types but appose abortion outright or think that the practice needs to be curtailed and revamped as some of the methods are barbaric and way late in the process.

So do you think there's anything to the former DC Madam's attorney's claim that he's going to release more of her phone records and that they will "shake up the presidential race?"

Assuming he does have something of importance, the money's gotta be on Cruz right? The guy is a birther and apparent Trump supporter so it's not Trump... Probably not Sanders... Probably not Clinton (unless it's Bill), so that leaves Kasich or Cruz...

DC Madam scandal broke in 2007; She committed suicide in 2008; Cruz elected to senate in 2012.

All true but Cruz clerked in DC for the Supreme Court for 3 years and also worked for the Bush administration... He was around... And potentially got around :)

Is Trump finally toast?

No way! That guy is probably working on his next garbage statement that will be on every news outlet and pull the far right back to him. I'm starting to wonder if he even spends money on campaign advertising or just relies on his 1 liners to be media headlines which get him votes.

Doesn't everyone finally concede that Hillary is the next president yet? Cruz is all the GOP has left after Trump and that guy is totally unelectable.

That statement is like "can we all agree we are all going to die of Cancer" ???

So sad! The likely hood is high but you wouldn't wish it on anyone. IMO We are doomed! I think if Hillary wins its time to just check out of the political debate. And maby that's what they want?

Hillary maybe female satan but at least she is less likely to do something monumentally stupid and put the whole world in peril like trump

I wonder if she will keep the family tradition if she wins?

Hillary probably is the next potus,..... but dayum we are so effed.

She should be in jail and we are going make her president.

Not at all. I know plenty of democrats who do not want Hillary to win and they will most likely stay home.

Gawd What's so Ironic if your worried about what "TRUMP will do" that your willing to put some one in office that will do absolutely NOTHING. Then that's our problem. Government has become a place for people Only intrested in advancing their own personal power/greed. Putting someone like Hillary in office is a Far Far more evil then Trump will ever be. 4 years of "The Clintons" palms to face shaking head LOL. Hearing her speak on tv at her rally's is like nails on the chalk board.

WRONG! Government has ALWAYS been the place for people only interested in advancing their power / greed.

Before national governments it was religion, feudal lords, chiefs, pharaohs, kings, etc...

Things are not much different now than they have been for thousands of years. Instead of corralling you around a campfire and scaring you with ghost stories they just show you video on TV and warn you of the "threat".

Don't you live in CA? Do you honestly believe that either Trump or Cruz has a chance in hell of beating Clinton in CA? I would say you would have to "know" at least a million democrats that will stay home.

You and the other right-wingers on this board said the same thing about Obama. I'm still waiting for even one of those Conservative fairy tales to come true about Obama; that, and for someone to finally show that he was born in Kenya. And we are supposed to believe any of the Trump fantasies after he and his team of "expert investigators" turned up nada?

Jeremy,

I live in California. I grew up in Indiana. My brother and people I know are mostly in Indiana, cousins in Illinois and brothers in Florida.

Jeremy. The whole birther movement was started by Hillary on her campaign.

factcheck.org and mediamatters.org both disagree with you. But even if it were true, it would demonstrate how easily idiots are manipulated. Given that those same people think Hillary is the biggest liar in the world, it would substantiate the argument that I always make... That fools will continue to believe those who lie to them or people they believe are liars as long as they are being told what they want to hear.

Sounds like even money odds then. If it's Hillary vs Trump I've got a $100 for any and all that want to wager. And I'm not even a betting man.

The only chance that Trump has is if he can morph his personality into something more Presidential right after the nomination so that normal people might have time to forget who he is now. You never know. His strategy might be to appeal to the numerous nutcases on the right to win the nomination. Then shift gears to pick up enough normal people to win the election. Not really thinking he is capable of that, but you never know.

Maybe NOTHING is the best we can hope for at this point. Just think how much better the world would be now if Bush had done a lot more NOTHING.

How many people here would do her just to say you did the President of the US? Might take a Viagra overdose to get the job done, but just think of the bragging rights.

I prefer nothing to something if the something is bad..... We are better to be where we are than somewhere worse.

Okay, let me make this easy for you. The Democratic candidate (Hillary or not) will not win IN. The Republican candidate (Trump or Cruz) will not win IL. FL is still a toss up.

We will be worse regardless of who is the next potus. This crop of candidates is sickening.

When was the last crop that wasn't? I don't think Sanders is sickening. I agree that we need to reduce costs of higher education, and we need universal HC with cost controls patterned after demonstrated success in other modern countries that have equivalent or better life expediencies. At least he's true to his convictions and it's pretty clear what he stands for.