Exile BIG12 Mk II!!
 

Just saw this on Exile's FB page...

https://vimeo.com/120630917

Boom.... I am just getting ready to order my new sub and usually get the normal 12". Wonder what the price difference is. Will have to check into this tomorrow.

Looks like any other off the shelf woofer using a generic basket, coil, dustcap, Spider and motor.
Better off buying dc audio or soundqubed. Same woofers without the exile and marine markup

^^^ I agree ^^^^ with J on the off the shelf basket comment. I have seen that same basket before, but thats no indication it's no good. IMO it's very hard accurately Judge any audio by looks alone. Look at the DD subs IMO they are pretty standard but they seem to work pretty good. MTX subs look Awesome but IMO they look way better then they sound. In the words of Ryan on audio equipment "beware of the bling" meaning if it's all fancy looking there's a pretty good chance it's No BUENNO.

Looks like it's comparable to the WS-XXX

^^^^ In what ways, other than advertised rms and it being a 12"? Getting answers from that manufacturer on 2-3 good question, would likely give someone a different perspective.

Every subwoofer is a little unique using a combination of different materials. However, that subwoofer is pretty generic overall Minus maybe the back plate/motor structure. That looks to be the very very popular 12 spoke basket and it has been around for over a decade (I owned two of them back in 2003).

Interesting comments. Tough crowd I guess. When it comes to product design, we have been around the block and back for the last 20+ years. Ultimate proof of "life" for any product is in its performance and not looks. My take on what makes a woofer worth its salt is construction process. To absolutely nail that process you need to make sure every single part of the whole is perfect. The engineers in this crowd should recognize in that video that the entire Big12 woofer is built in solid works which allows export to L.E.A.P and S.P.E.E.D acoustical motor design software. Solid works also allows for instant analysis of motor geometry. This has a tremendous advantage in locking down the parameters desired.

The biggest challenge any mfg has in bringing a woofer to market is analyzing its failure mode. It's really not about using this basket or another. There are many good off the shelf tools already available in many cases. To re-tool things is just burning money. Failure mode on the Big12 occurs at ~3800W RMS with VC chamber temps approaching 200 degree. This is why we use a carbon fiber cone and double doped reinforced emulsified cone behind it. that combination is what proves the absolute best in reliability. The second biggest challenge is adhesive strength at temperature. It's simply not easy getting woofers to live long after about 1500W of sustained power handling.

The voice coil in the Big12 is the most expensive component in the woofer as it handles insane amounts of heat. It's the most expensive VC I've ever seen to tell you the truth. There's a hell of a back story on this but in the end it doesn't matter. It just needs to do its job.

Suggestion: I've been around this forum for a long time, as many of you have. What if we do a member review? Someone thats knows his stuff? I think it would be fun regardless of whats said-- good / bad / otherwise. Grant, you are one of a few guys that I know that has a setup capable of testing this to its full extent. If I send you a woofer to play with, would you put it thru its paces? I'm talking real world, in the trenches-- bang on this woofer?

-Brian

I think a impartial review is a great idea, especially in the form of a comparison review including some other products.
One similar product might be this:
http://www.dcsoundlab.com/level3.html
Another but very different product might be the Wetsounds XXX12.

Power handling as a specification and a performance parameter is a little vague. It's internal. It can't be seen. First, most brand name woofers with a 3-inch voice coil spec their RMS (not peak) thermal power handling at 1000 watts or so. The above DC SoundLab is rated at 900 watts. There are also some patented technologies that impact power handling not available to all woofer brands, and certainly not Exile.
Second, usually when the focus is power handling to an extreme, other aspects of the woofer performance are adversely impacted, and particularly sound quality. This also holds true when the design focus is to handle abuse to an extreme.

Can you clarify what you are saying is made of carbon fiber and what you are referring to as double doped?

What i see in your video is a dust cap bridged across the cone and seems like it has a carbon fiber looking pattern. Below it, I see the actual woofer cone. From the back side, it looks to be cellulose based. What is the cone made of, 100% composite or laminated paper?

Its also apparent that the dust cap is not laminated to the cone, so if thats the carbon fiber part, how does it help with heat?

So how is the cone effected by heat from the coil?

Whats the spider material?

Are they spring loaded binding posts 100 stainless steel?

What kind of cooling and venting system does the 3" coil have that allows it to handle so much more, 3000W rms, wattage then other 3" VC's?

I would love see this woofer tested by an independent source. Especially if its driven by a non-exile amp thats known to deliver 3000W rms and the tuning is obtained outside of Exile and the enclosure is based on the T/S parameters. This would truly test the product.

Looks nice!! I just put on 2 Sundown Zv3 12's and they're very impressive. Pushing them with 3500 watt amp and they're begging for more. Sounds pretty good for spl woofer also.

Man, wish I had an amp to support one of these things, I don't think my Javelin would do it justice... :p While I will say that you may or may not be able to find a better sub elsewhere, something I do not think you will be able to find is Brian's level up customer service and support backing said product up. This goes a long way for me personally when purchasing equipment.

Brian: Sorry Im not in the Market for a sub right now. Most of the "Tests" We have done in the past are fully self serving when I have been in the market for a item I have not minded doing a test and sharing the results, If I was in the Market of a new sub I would take you up on the "Pepsi Challenge" in a second & thanks for thinking of me. Im gonna be doing a system in my Pontoon boat soon and I'm in the Market for some 8-inch Interior Speakers. So I would Totally be into a 8-inch Interior Speaker Shoot out.

I have level 3 and level 4 dc's
They also use a generic cone kit.
Cone/spider/coil/dustcap etc
I can take that same woofer and recone it with sundown/soundqubed/RE/FI/digital designs, any of those companies.
Imo I would compare this to my level 4 DC with an exile dustcap

These companies I named are essentially build houses with parts from China.
Not knocking any of them, but I certainly don't believe the proprietary engineering within them.
I just actually dropped off my boat today to have my level 4s taken out and new boxes built for sundown zv4's.

Same goes for a lot of the amps out there.
Whether it be the saz3500 sundown or the dc 3.k5, or a crescendo bc3500
a soundqubed 4500.1 or a skar 4500.1, or digital designs 4500 etc

I'll be running mine from a crescendo bc3500 to each, or a soundqubed 3500.1 to each. Whichever I get my hands on before my boat is ready for pickup in a few weeks

Sign me up Brian
 

Hey Brian! Still need someone for a member review for the Big 12? I'm in Redding, CA and can drive up if need be to make sure its installed correctly! ... Let me know!:D

If you need to look me up just check your system records. I've got a full Exile set up. Later - R

This arrived at California Marine Sports last week and will be going into LiquidTrends NorthBay's 2015 Axis T22. We are getting that boat setup now for the Sacramento Boat show, so anyone who will be in attendance can be sure to stop by our booth and check out this thing in person! I'm sure we will be putting on some sound demos through the show with it

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hp...78914020_n.jpg


I will say, after looking at this thing up close and personal its feels solid and I cant wait to hear it perform.

These forums are the BEST. Its always the same exact guys that have an ax to grind with Brian and Exile to question them and their specs and make exile out to be the kraco speaker company of the marine industry. Its as predictable as the sun rising in the east and setting in the west. UGGGGGG:banghead:

Tampa,
That's a bit dramatic.
Everyone and anyone that really knows product knows that the Exile woofer is not a Kraco by any means.
We already know the new Exile woofer will play bass loud and is an absolute jackhammer. We know it will hold up well. It looks impressive. A great majority will be happy with it. I have no doubts. If you have an all Exile system you will naturally want a woofer of the same brand with a grill in a matching pattern. And this woofer offers an upgrade over the respectable existing Exile 12-inch in respect to the amount of power and abuse it will take. Important to those who listen to and use their subs in a certain way. Given more power it will take you to the next level. I actually give it a thumbs up.
My contention and 'ax to grind' has always been with OVER-HYPE associated with the product along with the unrealistic comparisons to other products.
And in the past it has been proven that specs were grossly false. Today, the power handling spec is certainly in question.
It's like other than the silkscreen on the woofer dustcap we have seen all these parts before on countless other Made in China woofers. There is no real proprietary technology here. This is not a result of any sophisticated engineering. This is essentially a woofer assembled from a catalog. I know exactly how it works and I've seen it done.
Come on. The video made on Solid Works is a very impressive cartoon. Export to LEAP and SPEED??? Really. Btw, the name is SPEAD, not SPEED. The originator of the software is Pat Turnmire with Red Rock Acoustics. And Pat was a coworker of mine for several years. I know how this stuff really works and sometimes it's beyond my self control to ignore these embellishments. I just have a low tolerance for this type of BS.

*Grabs popcorn and waits for fireworks*

Does anyone have the rms output graph for the Exile 2500.1 in 1, 2 and 4 ohm impedance?

All I'm saying is I can buy that identical woofer for half the cost. $650? It's a rebranded off the shelf woofer

Wow, bold statement...can you substantiate this with with any credible facts? If you say it's rebranded then you must know of the copy or clone of the new Exile. Can you provide specific product brand and model?

A.J.
I would not have used the same language as Jmorlan, as in "rebranded", because that isn't exactly accurate. Just a "Branded" catalog product might be more accurate.
The Exile BIG12 MKII would be very close to the DC Audio Level 3 subwoofer. The build is almost identical although the DC Audio is $275 while the Exile BIG12MKII is $650.
The only thing that is proprietary with the Exile sub is the faux fiber dustcap with the Exile logo.
If you were to look at any number of China build houses or China marketing companies, @ Jiashan Future Sound Co., Ltd. for an example, you will find countless woofers using the same parts. Or, American some assembly houses using the identical parts collected from and purchased from a China parts catalog.
Same high roll surround.
Same surround stitching.
Same cast frame.
Same carbon fiber reinforced paper cone.
Same triple stacked magnet.
Same machined top and bottom conductor plates.
Same 3-inch anodized aluminum voice coil former.
Same dual progressive spiders with the same interwoven VC leads.
Same rubber magnet boot.
Different dust cap. Different logo.
You can tweak the same old parts a bit, maybe the machined conductor plates that are slightly thinner or thicker. Maybe a longer or shorter voice coil to balance sensitivity and excursion a bit differently than the next clone. Maybe a larger voice coil wire gauge with a few more turns or a few more layers so that you can obtain a different balance between accuracy and power handling.
You can shift the priorities and trade-offs a bit. There is even software available so you can plug in and out catalog parts to predict the performance attributes without ever building and testing the first unit. But in the end, it is an off-the-shelf offering assembled from non-proprietary catalog parts.
It's very much the same with an amplifier like the Exile Javelin. It uses the same platform as many of the Phoenix Gold amplifiers and P.G. was using that basic platform for several years before Exile adopted fullrange Class D amplifiers. In fact, you can find the identical Javelin amplifier in a Shenzhen, China catalog model # SXD-100.4D800. Off-the-shelf with re-tooled end caps and a different logo.
It's not just with Exile, it's like this with a large portion of the car audio industry. These relatively small companies do not have the big resources to R & D and engineer. All you have to do is visit their office/warehouse to see they are no more than a marketing/importer.
Are many of these products worth owning at the right price? Sure. Just don't buy all the hype hook, line and sinker.

Would you lump ARC Audio in the same category? Do they actually design and engineer their products or farm out?

In the case of Arc Audio probably some of both. Arc Audio's annual sales are MUCH higher.
For their upper end products they use Robert Zeff from Nikola Engineering to do some design work. Robert Zeff previously was Zapco. So there is some leading edge American engineering and some proprietary designs. Arc Audio also has some good domestic technical people on staff.
Btw, Wetsounds also shares Zeff's services.
But they have to take these designs overseas to get them built.
In many cases that manufacturer will keep those designs protected. There may be formal and binding agreements. In other cases they are protected only for a limited time. But those build houses do make products for other brands. And sometimes those China build houses pad their own profits by borrowing those designs. 'Borrowing' may be too kind of a word. It takes some clout to keep the builder honest.

You can surmise that if a very small company claims to have a proprietary part, voice coil or whatever, that would be close to impossible for the overseas builder to withhold that technology from a much larger company with 100 times the annual sales, especially if the overseas builder actually designed the part.

In contrast, there are companies that have real proprietary products to a very large degree. For example, JL Audio employs the previous president plus and top electrical engineer from the original Precision Power and Xtant. They also have employed designers from the original Rockford Fosgate and Phoenix Gold before all those companies were acquired by overseas entities. They recently hired not one but several DSP engineers. And JL Audio does have Class D designs that are exclusive to JL Audio within the 12V industry.
Taking a JL Audio W6 for example. Every part is proprietary. The 8, 10, & 12 share nothing. Each size within the same series is a perfectly balanced and precision designed woofer. And there are multiple patents with true proprietary technology and parts. All are American designed and built.
Of course, when you get to the entry level series of woofers this no longer is the case. Those are imports.

Not to get off topic but David you mentioned the original Rockford Fosgate and PPI. Those were great and fun times in car audio in the 80's and early 90's.

Man, you are not kidding! The best of times. When audio was the chief form of entertainment before video's dominance. Before VCRs, MTV, MP3, and the internet changed the music business forever. When the music labels put big money into studio artists and album production. And the music revolution permeated the home and car audio industries.
The technology has come a long way since then but the passion and creativity can't match that era.
And of course I still had a full head of hair.

I still have a full head of hair. Except it is on my back and ears now...

Damn David came through spit the knowledge dropped the mike and walked it off!!! Love it!

:cool::cool: Back in the days when you could hear a Honda CRX with a Punch 150 and a couple of Punch 15's for miles! :D

Passion from the 80's and 90's is definitely gone.

I too hate seeing people talking about brands that were good back then that are crap now. They don't understand the companies have sold out. Or overhype....

Speaking of, I saw Nakamichi in the Earthquake booth at CES. That was a shocker.

I really miss the home audio 2-channel stuff from the seventies.
Wood cases. Continuous loudness. Tone turnover and hinge selections. Jeweled knobs. Giant analog displays. Heavy tuner flywheels. 1/4 thick aluminum front panels.
I'd love to start a HiFi museum that followed the evolution of some brilliant products that were built so well. Many of those innovators are gone now. And I mean really gone.
I'm not sure I have seen a truly original idea in the last 25 years.
Those that never experienced this era have no idea.
On the flipside we are about to embark on DSP and some other technologies that are maturing and real game changers.

Why you gotta talk about my favorite car I ever owned. I had that set up. I had about 4 different set ups in that car seemed to be no matter the alarm system I had the stuff would get stolen.

I still have old school Xtant Amps in my 98 M3 convertible. :-)

Love Xtant!

Still run a pair of them in my pickup as well

Man that was the car back then. I had a Mazda B2200 extended cab mini truck with two Punch 15's and used three Punch 30 (aka: "peanuts") to run the entire system.

Hey David, I still have an XV-1 crossover and a PA1-HD pre-amp

Pretty scathing stuff here. It's pretty the equivalent of people buying expensive Monster cables when a cable 1/3 of the cost would do just as well.

I'm saddened to see that the wool is being pulled over people's eyes, so to speak. In a small niche environment like marine high-end audio, you expect a better of your vendors.

That's not to say that Exile is a bunch of liars, but this definitely makes you question the value per dollar of their products.

Ok seeing how we are tripping down memory lane.

Back in the day this was my system in a Porsche 911 LOL

When CD players came out I had the First Sony model in dash CD player That thing was like $1400 LOL
PS-200's Amps for Lows
Zapco PX eq
ADS Power Plates for Highs
Nac EC 200's Crossovers
4 Cerwin Vegas 8 inc Subs
Dynaudio Mids
Morell MDT 101 tweeters

Look at these pic's of the Old equipment. LOL look at all the remote equipment like the Remote power supply's for the Amps and Eq's LOL

Nakamichi in the Earthquake booth at CES.

Ha

Ahhh, 0-100 class! Very :cool:

I was running amps by a company called AutoTek. Of course they too have been snatched up by the chinese and aren't the quality that I believe they used to be. Maybe they weren't that great back then either but I was still competitive and only ever lost to this stupid CRX that had the combo I spoke of. :D Those little cars were like a master enclosure for SPL.

Oh sure, the rest of us were rolling around in mini-trucks and Honda's and you pull out the "Porsche 911". :p:D

Speak for yourself... She wasn't a Porsche, but she was my first German love...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-5...VW%2520GTI.jpg

Auto-Tek BTS-7050 (44 watts) one of the best amps ever.

I had the 7150.

All those CRXs running around with three Punch 150s and an alternator the size of an orange. It was lucky they didn't stall out on the first bass note of Flashdance.

My first system was four 8-inch woofers and two exponential horns behind the rear seat of a VW bug (my own Porsche in sneakers). But there were no external amplifiers yet. This was before Rockford Fosgate, Smegg, Audio Mobile, a/d/s or Zapco came to market with a DC to DC amplifier. Not even a Craig Powerplay booster yet. So I would have been jumping with joy for 22.5 watts per channel.

18 years old with a 911. Yup that was back in the days when I thought your car was a reflection of one's self worth!!! Wow how things have changed. Now I drive a Prius and could care less about fancy cars. Don't get me wrong I still like and appreciate them. Just don't have any interest in owning and or maintaining one.

St Pauli girl was my first German love, but i had a 77 rabbit in high school as well.

OK, now I gotta show my 1988 B2200 (not ext cab unfortunately) that I had back in 1988...I also had 2 Punch 15's with a Punch 150 and 2 Punch 45's on the mids/highs.



http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x...MazdaB2200.jpg

Yeah, but not any old Rabbit. This was the first of a legacy! the MK1 GTI! (but yeah, I called her "bunny")

Those were the best bodies IMO, but their build quality dropped in 81 when they were built in the US. Took a couple years to get the fit and finish back up. The best I ever owned was an 87 Wolfsburg jetta with BBS wheels and the Zender body kit. Other than the power difference, i liked it better then the GLI I had later.

I really like this thread now! :D

I moved the cool stuff to this thread:
http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=804152

I hope you keep a towel over it if wire strippers are within 10 feet.

Not aware of issues. Sounds like they'd short out easily or something? I had the 2 channels ones eventually give up the ghost and I replaced it with a 4 channel equivalent, but the 1000.1 is still alive and kickin

I'm referring to the ones that had the stainless shroud you had to remove when making the wiring connections. I sold those back in the late 90's and early 2000's, we called them MTXtant. I think MTX owned them. When you had the shroud off if a single, tiny wire strand got into the board, it would short as soon as power was on. We got to where all the connections were terminated and lugs crimped on before the amp ever went in, then we'd blow it out with a low pressure air source.

I'm curious to know from Exile if what David says is true about Exile's BIG12 woofer and Javelin amplifier?? Since I haven't seen a rebuttal from them, I'm assuming it is true??

^^ hilarious doggy ^^

Dave, dude's that think they were cool in the 80's with mini trucks and mullets are waiting 4 your reply. I so regret posting in this thread 😝😝😝😝😝

Curious myself to see if Brian will chime in to discuss any of the actual engineering of the products by Exile themselves or if in fact it's just a matter of slightly tweaking existing common, basically off the shelf components or catalogue sourced parts and applying an Exile badge to them (not that it's not common practice in audio or other industries).

:D :rolleyes:

Dave, it's really the guy that wore 3 different colored polo shirts at once and drove a Porsche that is waiting for an answer. :D

Only with the collars flipped up :p

That's a relief knowing that all my polo shirts were single color. Did you guys starch your collars?

nope, just ironed and hung in the flipped up position.

I didn't have any polo's, only Metallica, Iron Maiden, Megadeth and Motley Crue T-shirts. :(

David , I was wondering what setup your running in your boat ? Towers, amps etc ?

Here's your big 12. Order 2 of them and put some exile stickers on them.for the same price
http://m.ebay.com/itm/301541227322
Another catalog woofer

Skar Audio is a great example of the fallacy with most of these China catalog woofers. Check out the top-of-line TXL series. All sizes from top to bottom share the same motor. As a result the Qts on the smallest model is best suited for a bass-reflex while the largest model is best suited for infinite baffle. Pretty much proof that there is no real engineering going on even though they often claim they use the latest and most sophisticated engineering tools. It's just not so.

I'll stick to my china catalog woofers. I've had great luck with them and to ME the sound good and are 1/2 the price. I'm currently running 2 Sundown 12 ZV3 pusing about 1700 watts to each of them and they do pretty damn good.

I get that. They are certainly jackhammers. They certainly handle abuse. And there is good value for the right type of user/listener.
I frequently hear from owners of these type woofers that the SQ is great to go along with the great SPL. The woofer might have as much moving mass as a metroplex telephone directory, a voice coil as heavy as a roll of nickels, and a suspension stiff enough to stand on. It's like the driver of a loaded dump truck with an Indy car suspension telling me he is riding on marshmallows. I've heard them and I don't agree. But I will concede this.
If you are mainly listening to music forms where the bass and drum lines are mainly synthesized and generated off computer software rather than on real instruments played by real studio artists, then there isn't much point in investing in a more expensive SQ woofer. That is often where the disconnect is between opinions. We have a different point of reference with different objectives.
I can't argue with yours but it's simply not for me.

Agree - That's why I use them on my boat playing in an open air downloaded music on Ipod.

Now my Home Theater is totally different as I have a lot more control over everthing. So great sq is key.

I've also learned the hard way the sub enclosure can make a HUGE difference output, sq, etc.

**** subs + good box = pretty good sound
Good subs + bad box = **** for sound
good subs + good box = awesome

Absolutely. Box construction is huge. There are countless other factors in building a great sounding subwoofer. Design, set up and tuning is huge. For example, I routinely see a very high bass-reflex tuning frequency for SPL, a corresponding and steep subsonic filter to protect the sub below the high tuning frequency, and a very low lowpass crossover point. There are four different phase responses (subsonic filter, port, woofer, crossover filter) compressed into less than an octave span. No bookin' chance of SQ with that scheme.
There was another thread here talking about large subs with big Xmax running undersized ports and having port noise.
The right sub location and how it loads into the boat.
Not to mention system tuning.
When you hear one that is really dialed in, you know it, even in an open boat.
An open boat definitely has its challenges but it also has its compensations. No standing waves. The initial wave front is the only wave front.
I'm still very much pro SQ, even though I can't resist a little extra emphasis.

I never really took any pics of mine back when I had it for some reason. I think it was because camera phones didn't really exist back then and I didn't do the digital camera thing for a while. Film cameras never interested me much.

Anyway, my first car and german car, 1992 VW Passat GL 2.0L 5-speed with factory aerokit option. That thing was sweet. I pegged the speedo on that baby on the I5 going through Portland UNTIL I saw the cop. Downshifting and braking so hard, I probably looked like I was shoveling the pavement to him. I got it down from 135-140(whatever the end of the speedo was) down to 76mph when he tagged me. First speeding ticket. Worth it :cool:

What amp are you running? What kind of power do you have to back the amp and how does it do?
I have 2 zv4 12s that are going in right now and I'm hopefully getting my hands on a DC audio 3.5k to run them. I'm just afraid of having to run my boat 24/7 just to keep up. How does your bank keep up with the draw?

I run a Sundown 3500 on the subs and wet sounds sd6 for my in-boats. I have 5 group 31batteries. It has done great never have drain them. We sit with the engine off 90% of the time.