Rudder hit log
So I'm thinking about buying this boat at a good deal because of what's wrong it. Apparently the owner hit a log and only damaged the rudder, no prop damage, so shaft damage, only damage to the rudder and the fiberglass above it that it mounts to. How much trouble would it be to fix or how much would it be to professionally fix? I would imagine it would be nothing more than removing the rudder and the mount for it, reglassing the top and bottom and sanding it smooth and painting, then reinstalling the rudder... What do you guys think?
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/...556E2CDAAB.jpg http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/...BAE7E36692.jpg http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/...F139E3E3D3.jpg |
|
What i would want to know is how can you do that much damage to the rudder and hull and miss the prop and shaft?
|
That's my thought to
|
Also, there is a very big chance that the whole boat has sunk. Can cause super bad engine problems down the road. Check the oil, and see if there is any water in it (it should look like milk) if the oil has water in it, adios, look for a different boat, unless u wanna rebuild the engine.
|
Guy said the boat took on water a few inches above the floor, when he finally got it on the trailer. He said he did nothing with it and took it to a shop where they changed all the oil and transmission fluid and filters, then ran... Then they repeated the process. The first time there was water in the oil but now there's nothing and the guy said it runs good. I know the hull is needing some work. This is a 2000 centurion elite (vdrive) with pretty good interior, 450hrs, tower, tower speakers, wake racks, bimini, perfect pass gps, and a tandem axle trailer for 6500. He said I could here it run in person... Thoughts?
|
If the rest of the boat is in good condition that would probable be a $15k+ boat this time of year(minus the obvious damage). If you like the boat and the rest looks good might be worth a chance for $6500. I'd still try to get him to go lower.
|
Quote:
You aren't going to want to paint the bottom, you will want to gel coat it once it is properly repaired. Doesn't sound like the end of the world, it is white, it will blend and if you do it right, you will never know you ever hit and it won't be a problem. |
If you want to check out this tread http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=799568 , you can see what it will take to repair it. It can be done at home and will cost you less than $100 and your time. Ensure you have a very large area to start laying the epoxy and glass to. This repair at a shop will be $1,500 - $3,000 depending on hours (including the ability of repair tech to complete work in a timely manner). As well, ensure the shop gives you a good warranty. You won't really know how good the repair was until later in the next season if and when stress cracks show up. I am very happy with self completed repair. I know of 2 people that the insurance companies paid $2,000 - $3,000 to fix similar holes.
|
Thanks for the link. I've been searching and haven't found a good thread yet. Thanks
|
I think those estimates are a bit high. I'd say $1000 - $1500. Glass doesn't look too bad and rudder is only about $250. You're going to use more marine sealant than anything.
It's easy to clip the rudder and miss prop and shaft. Did it in my buddy's SN 2001. Snapped the rudder off at the hull, shaft and prop never got bumped. Had to steer the boat with a wakeskate to get it on the trailer... |
Thanks for all the help guys. I think I just got a sick boat for dirt cheap.... I will post pics as soon as I get it. I had one exactly like this except without perfect pass and I sold it for 16,500. So even if it needs engine work I think I will be in the green.
|
make sure you get it aligned when it alls goes back together. can damage trans and engine if out of line and fairly cheap to check.
Good luck with it! |
I'm guess that repair will cost 4-5K.
|
I think I'm going to tackled this job myself. Fiberglass mating and resign are easy enough to use.
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
yeah it hit a long all right, the one caulking the wheels, just as the boat slid off the trailer. if it was truly a log strike under water the prop would been folded and strut would be bent, either way someones not forthcoming with the truth
|
looks to me like a marine-tex repair (ugly-ass repair, btw) that failed or hit something again.
|
It could have been any submerged structure. It is possible the log was floating submerged, but if it was on the surface it probably would have hit the prop,unless the boat "popped" it low enough to just miss the prop. If it did, what good luck! Trailer incident? Highly possible, but how often does a boat slide off of bunks? This could have happened loading in shallow water as well.
OP, just for giggles, show us a pick of the trailer and full rudder.lack of stren Yes, it did look like a previously poor repair, but pictures can be deceiving. If that was the previous repair, it was an abomination. |
I'm guessing trailer incident based on how the rudder & hull is "pushed up" in the first picture. Both leading & trailing top edges of the rudder are above the bottom surface of the boat.
|
Maybe he hit something and the fiberglass gave before rudder bent, and caused it to bend like that. Idk how he could have done it putting it on the trailer bc wouldnt the prop stuff hit first... Also if it slid off the trailer I think the whole boat would have came back and there would be tons more damage... The rudder couldn't really hit the ground unless the boat was far enough back that it was on the ground, which I wouldn't thing the back of the hull or swim platform would show damage
|
That rudder looks to me folded due to pressure from the front. Do you have a picture of a strike mark? Seems like there should be a strike mark for damage like that. Or else, a fiberglass repair job around the rudder through-hull bearing plate was too weak. Just pressure on the rudder of the boat cruising at speed could have collapsed things as the pictures show here. In fact, the pressure would likely have been highest in a power turn.
|
No strike mark on front of hull
|
uhh ... I was asking about any strike mark on front of rudder (or the rear or a side of the rudder).
Right now I'd guess it was a weak marine-tex repair which failed during a turn. Ask the owner. The rudder failed. You are willing to buy the boat and repair it. The owner should be forthcoming about (1) what happened during what use of the boat, and, (2) what were the circumstances of the previous occasion for the previous patch. |
Here's really upfront and honest about everything. He said his wife had just fallen surfing and he was trying to go back and pick her up when it happened. He heard two thumps and then the boat wouldn't steer at all.... He just assumed it was a log... Never actually saw it.
|
It really doesn't matter. It is broke and it needs to be fixed. If the rest of the boat is up to your expectations and if the price is right, then you will have a new boat and project to complete. Enjoy it. Depending on where you live and how much free time you have available, you may even get it fixed and in the water in a week or 2.
|
If the rudder is the only thing that's bad, that's a ton of boat for 6500 bucks. Good luck and post some pics when you're done.
|
Quote:
I will post my step by step progress for everyone to see... Iceberg you seem to have good experience and I may use your expertise during this process if that's ok. I'm picking up the boat Saturday. |
I think u got a great deal, even if u need to rebuild the engine, and fix the rudder problem, if u sell it, you can still make a profit.
|
I got a quote for $500 to fix the damage. For only $7000 it it this is gonna be a sick boat!
|
Water a few inches above the floor and slow and steady coming from below and sitting for some time to get the boat on the trailer means every bit of foam in that boat is soaked and holding water. You can check by using a hole saw to cut holes in the floor in a few spots and feel the foam, dig out the the bottom of the hull and I bet it's all soaked. Likely looking at pulling the floor/splitting cap and digging out all the foam. Problem on composite boats is often the stringers are foam core. Drill a few holes low on stringer to check if it's wet. If dry you can just fill with epoxy and be good enough removing foam, ensuring it's all clean and dry, and buttoning it back up.
Buying a fairly new boat that likely needs the same restoration work a 30 year old boat needs kind of sucks. $6500 might make it worthwhile but that $500 quote does not include addressing the water below the floor and doing it right. Give it a few winters of freeze/thaw cycle and you'll have issues with all that water in there, and the boat will always be humid/moist/mildew which can cause rust/corrosion and electrical issues. |
Wet foam just means free ballast?
|
So what your telling me is if I forget my plug…just once…my boat is ruined?? Not saying the foam is or isn't wet, but having water in a boat one time surely isn't going to do it!!
|
How would it be any different than a hard rain without the cover on it... After a hard rain I sometimes have a good bit of water built up... Would than mean a ruined boat also?
|
My thoughts exactly!!
|
This is not an 80s boat with wooden stringers....
|
$500 bucks eh? I'd be a little weary of those methods and want to know more information other than "yea man, we can fix that for $500" - without knowing who quoted that and their experience. I guess that's your call though, sounds too inexpensive to me. I'd be interested in, is their repair process. What type of resin was used in the hull when it was built?
What I am getting at is there are nuances of fiberglass repair and I would not want a polyester resin repair - period. Polyester will not form a chemical bond with the old polyester - if that is what original construction was. You want a strong, reinforced repair and the gelcoat/fiberglass ground back around the repair to ensure no spider cracks show up 6 months down the road after you do some power turns. Do it right, gel coat it, feather it out and it will be better than new. |
There have been a number of wakeboats that have sunk to the bottom! Many larger boats do not have foam in them for flotation or structure. I can't speak to the OP's new boat, but only boats 20' and under are required by Coast Guard regulations to have flotation (foam or some other device) to float level with the water surface. Larger boats may have some foam in the V or bottom to increase strength and reduce noise, but if it is water-logged, it isn't going to float. I don't believe my 23' boat has any floatation built in, except maybe the honeycomb hull design and a bit of trapped air, in the ballast tanks!
$500 is extremely low for that repair, even if he charged you only $40/hr. It might not be too difficult to get it done for $1,000, but most shops would ever quote even at $1,000 on a slow week, or maybe they would? |
Foam is not going to soak up water that quickly. It takes prolonged exposure to water. If your boat dries out between uses and after an incident, then it's a nonissue.
|
Quote:
Pretty much all boats have foam. I've been to the malibu and axis factory and every single one of their boats gets foam injected. |
The boats I spoke of above were all Malibus and a few Mastercrafts, so I'm guessing there isn't enough foam to float the boat. I know the Centurions have foam injected in the layers, but it is for noise attenuation and strength (reduced flexing). Again, I doubt if there is enough foam in between the layers to float the boat.
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
In any event, if this was my boat I would drill a 4" or 6" hole in some easy to patch and inconspicuous areas like below a seat or through the floor/storage on either side of the engine and dig through to the bottom of the foam to check for water. With a bit of luck it'll be dry and it's as simple as glassing your piece back in and pulling the carpet back down. If it's saturated, then glassing in a couple small pieces you cut out is trivial considering the amount of work ahead. It really doesn't take much to check. |
"If the rest of the boat is in good condition that would probable be a $15k+ boat this time of year(minus the obvious damage). If you like the boat and the rest looks good might be worth a chance for $6500. I'd still try to get him to go lower."
That damage to the rudder in the pictures is the second injury to it. It is the result of a poor repair after the first injury. The extent of the first injury is worth knowing. Perhaps this is why the owner is willing to part with a damaged boat for $6500 that could be ostensibly restored to the value of $15,000 for a repair of $1,000. But then again ... maybe you should follow the old adage. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. |
Rudder hit log
The boat has a fiberglassed floor under the snap out carpet... How could I drill a hole without it being noticeable with the carpet removed?
|
Not the floor in the main deck, but the floor of the boat beneath it or in a lower spot in a hatch. You could use a smaller hole and just take a core sample, or if there is no real concern to check, just leave it. A good glass and gel repair after would be unnoticeable.
|
a hit that bends the rudder and shoves it through the hull indicates a less than quality build...this does not happen on a Sanger.
|
Quote:
Not really any different than drilling holes in wood stringers to check for rot. If it's wet, it'll need a stringer job sooner or later depending on how bad and where/how much is rotted. If it's dry, just fill with epoxy or thickened resin and enjoy the boat. |
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/...6D5F4B5F_1.jpg
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/...4838364158.jpg http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/...2066AE8410.jpg Making progress. Basically following the guide that was previously posted using west systems products. The fiberglass the rudder was attached to was unusable and ripped out while talking the mounting bracket off. After sanding i fiber glasses at least 15-20 layers thick and it's almost a 1/2" thick... Should be stronger than it was before. |
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/...9910804728.jpg
Here's a shot of the inside while it was drying. As of now I have about 10ish layers of fiberglass on the inside and about 8 or so on the outside. Seems very strong. |
nice work
|
It looks good so far. It looks like you left a few areas where cracks still existed. I hope you really ensured that there were no delaminations in those areas or cracks may reappear. The top-side work and thickening will help ensure it remains stable and gel coat spider-crack free. Keep track of your hours just for giggles.
|
Looking good.
|
Those cracks are just barely gel coat deep. I ended up sanding them out. Here is the first coat of gel.... Lots of sanding left to go....
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/...8B27FB7C39.jpg |
Depending on how fussy you are, you will find yourself doing some reshaping, regelling and sanding. I used a Dremel with a carbide bit (fast) to help get to the final shape both before and during the gel coat application. I found as I worked into the corners and edges that I needed to remove or add epoxy and then regel to make it perfect. That added a few extra hours of work.
|
Yes I will have to likely regel to get the corners perfect
|
How about some pics of the rest of the boat? Wanna see what kind of deal you're getting. congrats!
|
Quote:
What were your steps exactly for installing the rudder bracket... What sealant did you use. And silicone? |
Quote:
And thanks a lot for your previous post. I probably would have taken it to a shop without that... Although mine won't look as good as yours when I'm done |
So far I have about $300 in it... I bought a nice 75 dremel, more fiberglass than I needed and more sandpaper than I needed. Without all that it would have been around $150ish
|
|
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/...5/IMG_4792.jpg
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/...5/IMG_4793.jpg http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/...5/IMG_4807.jpg The boat has tower, new tower speakers, Bimini, GPS perfect pass, duel batteries w/ switch, 400 hrs on motor and the motor was rebuilt in 2012... I have receipts for everything... Almost 2k.... Snap in carpet, tandem trailer, yada yada.... Hard to find a better deal! |
Looks like you got a kick butt boat for cheap. Congrats!
|
Quote:
It looks like you got a really good boat for a great price! |
Hey guys I mounted the rudder bracket. I'm waiting on the marine sealant to cure. I am having a weird perfect pass issue... Sometimes on the key it cuts in fine exactly how it should and sometimes it just lights up on the screen and beeps constantly and won't stop until I cut the key off... Any ideas?
|
It's the gps star gazer wakeboarder pro with more than one line of display.
|
Quote:
PP is notorious for wanting GOOD voltage. so if your batteries are low, that's a possibility. however, on my Supra, I had to run a GOOD power and ground to the PP and it was MUCH happier. I ran a good power lead from the battery and then had it triggered via a relay. Also, the grounds under my dash were pathetic and daisy chained. tons of resistance. yuck. I put in a good ground with a bus bar and attached the sensitive electronics to that. the voltage on my PP went from a reading of 10-11 all the way up to between 12 and 13.8; it was a drastic improvement. |
Agreed regarding the perfect pass. We had the very same issue on our MC when it was not getting enough battery voltage.
|
I probably would have used Coosa or other composite material given the rest of the boat should be composite, but wood tends to last at least a couple decades even with shoddy work at the factory, so it should last at least as with the attention you gave it. Kudos for taking on the repair yourself!
As for the wiring, Trayson is right PP is picky about good voltage. I would be checking voltage at various points on the engine and dash and run new power and ground to distribution blocks under dash and tap from there for any new or more sensitive like PP. Any wiring that was submerged is suspect, check the ends of any wiring down low for moisture or corrosion. Clean, cut back and crimp new ends, or replace wire as needed. Electrical issues will only get worse so you may as well go over it before next season. |
Quote:
What do u mean use wood? I haven't used wood on anything on this boat? |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Wood, or another core material provides compressive strength. |
Yes it looked like wood in the pictures. I think from the top it may just look like that from light shining through from the bottom, not sure why it looks like wood from the bottom, maybe light in that case too. If you did not use any sort of backer and just laid wetted cloth across the hole where the rudder port was I would be concerned with the strength, potential brittleness, and potential voids/air between layers. Rudder turned fully to either side is nearly perpendicular to the prop and takes a lot of load. Powerslides or other quick maneuvers also put a lot of force on the rudder. If you did not use a backing I'd be concerned about flexing and stress cracks after some time as I envision in the corners of the port where an unbacked patch meets original hull. I'm not an engineer though my worries are worth what you paid for them.
The point of using a backing such as wood and glassing that in to the hull and a few layers over top is to have a strong material both for compressive strength for bolting the port in and also to spread the load over a larger area. Typically plywood is used but on newer boats or when people restore old boats and want to avoid potential wood rot issues a composite material like Coosa or Starboard will be used. |
Gotcha... I thought about using a backing material except the bottom of the boat isn't quiet flat in the bilge. It's raised a bit where this was so that's why I chose to make it with fiberglass... Also I covered about a 3'x3' area inside the boat with at least 10 layers of fiberglass bonded to it.... And the rudder mount is thicker than it was originally. So I'm gonna take it out in a few days check for leaks and give it hell... Hard power turns just to see what will happen. I have faith in my job 😃
|
Quote:
|
I'd also have a second boat there during the trial to help out in case of emergency.
Your great deal on the bottom of the lake wouldn't be so great. Let us know how it goes. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Lol |
Quote:
That's how I actually got the boat. After the incident the insurance company wrote him a check for the value of the boat and basically assumed it was salvaged. |
James, sir, I'm impressed. You had this attitude that you could glass that thing back into place, and, you did it.
I hope your rudder repair works fine as 'is' (as 'you repaired it'). But if it crumples again, and you can get it back to shore in time, I'm convinced you can do better a second time. I think working in fiber glass is among the type of repair/retrofit projects where you get to do it over, over and over again .... rather than better get it right the first time or else. Really, if you're truly 19, I'm smashed by your positive attitude: "I can fix it!" ... and can back that up with deeds. |
Quote:
I appreciate the post! Felt kinda bad that everyone bashed me... But yeah if it breaks I can fix it again and it really isn't that hard, plus I have all the materials... It would only keep getting better the more I did it... And yes I am 19 btw. I'm lake testing tomorrow afternoon. I will get pics. @trayson u were dead on with the perfect pass issue. Only had 11ish V... I jumped a purple wire off one of the gauges and it's now 12+ v and works every time. |
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 6:15 AM. |