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Unbiased L.A. Boat Show thoughts
Ok this is straight up MY unbiased opinion of the boats I saw on display. I own a 2004 Sanger V215. I realize the industry has evolved. The best looking boats were the Tige's and the MB's. Regardless of price or performance. I was disappointed in the fact that Sanger didn't bring a blinged out boat. The Malibu looks like they are cutting some corners with some of the fit and finish. The Master Craft towers were at perfect height to snack your head on entering the boat. To me the ZX1 was the most impressive looking boat there. The MB a close second. Good job to the companies putting some serious r and d into a very over priced market.
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Agreed on the Mastercraft. I looked at one briefly but noticed the same thing. i had to duck down or it would hit me square in the face. I am only 6' tall. Kind of makes it a pain entering the boat after getting out of the water. On the XT series it seems the tower sits pretty far back on the boat, right above the motor compartment.
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The tower in your face is only a problem on the smaller entry level boats. Step up in size and that problem goes away. Go with a forward arch tower and it creates usability problems. No boat is perfect.
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I was only there for a short time on Sunday but saw the following:
Nautique – I already have one so I didn’t spend any time there. Malibu/Axis – Tilly’s seemed to have the most boats there. I think they had one of each Bu and Axis models. They even had the new 25 LSV. I really like the look of that new boat, but 25’ is just too much boat for me. Supra/Moomba – This was a surprise to me because I didn’t know that a new dealer is coming to the Norco, CA area. I saw the SL and SA in person for the first time and liked what I saw. I personally liked the new dash and steering control design and would own either a Supra or Malibu if I didn’t have my Nautique. Pavatti – They were located directly across from Supra/Moomba and had a 24 and 26 footer displayed. I know absolutely nothing about this boat except that it is aluminum and costs a ton of money. They can do interesting things with metal versus fiberglass such as drawers that slide out similar to a drawer on a tool box. Seeing it in person, all that I can say is that it isn’t for me, but there were a TON of people hanging surrounding it and checking it out so there must be a draw for some. |
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It better be, for the god damn price!!! |
Unbiased L.A. Boat Show thoughts
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I have seen a lot of videos and each one has had a wave that looks a lot like a dumpster fire. I would like to see something superior. There is NO existing tech, no hull design aspect, nothing that could make a Pavati wave better than its competition (Zx5, SE, Ri257)—other than SIGNIFICANTLY more ballast which it does not have. Strong opinion coming: Pavati makes zero sense for the cost. Very low production numbers, nearly custom components. I could see it being like owning a rare Lambo or something. A potential maintenance nightmare. It’s the kind of thing you buy because you have more money than brains. Ok, sorry if you’re a Pavati man. “But, it’s an aluminum hull! It lasts FOREVER!” Do we have a problem with fiberglass not lasting long enough? |
My brother was all set on getting a Pavati. Flew out for a test drive. They couldn't get a good surf wave, had cavitation issues and "smelled like oil." So he passed on it and got a G23 and has been happy ever since. His buddy, ended up getting a Pavati and had all sorts of problems.
Anywho...the Pavati is probably a great boat for those who want to spend a lot on something without a good support network and probably does not work as well as the current crop of flagship boats. Just the cost of being a baller and needing to have something different than all the other basic people with a pimped out G23 |
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Agreed!! |
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Downsides to both designs. With a forward swept tower, you are running into the bimini when it is deployed, you are blowing the ear drums of your rear passengers with the tower speakers, and you cant drive the boat with the tower folded. |
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Pavatti - was hoping they would come to their senses, first run of boats can cost quite a bit more than subsequent runs. WTF are they thinking coming into a market where prices have been skyrocketing and essentially price their boats at double that of their competitors? more importantly how is that business model supposed to work?
I think the lambo comparison is a good one. although Pavatti doesn't have anything to back it up..... also where are the pics??? |
Lambo comparison does not work. Lambo has been reliable and dealers are plentiful since Audi/VW/Porsche purchased Lambo. If you want to compare to a car, I'd compare the price and dealer network to Pagani or Koenigsegg, reliability to a Land Rover, and performance to a Toyota.
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Lambo was a bit of a reach. These are much better examples. I was thinking about my acquaintance that has a 1984 Countach and never is able to drive it...
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I have NEVER seen a Pavatti on any lake and I live in a pretty affluent county. I don’t know how they even make enough money to justify the “R&D” (if they even really do any of that) and tooling into making them. That’s probably why they are ludicrously priced. They have to sell a couple a year to keep out of the red - if that’s even possible.
Every promo video I have seen for this boat involves a couple of douche canoe bro’s driving it around with a harem of tatted up skanks with fakies, sitting around on the sun pad with their ham wallets barely covered. Great marketing, if your trying to entice trust fund babies like Dan Bilzerian and Brody Jenner into buying a trawler for catching wallet sniffing ho’s. |
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Ok, I'm dying at my new favorite phrase. Ham Wallet. Hahahahahahahaha
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Unbiased L.A. Boat Show thoughts
Oh boy I forgot about Dan Bilzerian. That guy takes the cake.
I have only ever heard one person talk about wanting one, and let’s just say the shoe fits. Floating lifted H2 with 24s. Except it’s also very expensive. Does it come with a free years supply of affliction T-shirts? |
geez that was the the realest thing to be said on wakeworld in a while
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A few of my thoughts from the show:
The Red 25LSV was sharp. The MC X24, Supra SE550, Malibu M235 and the Tige ZX5 all tie for tallest wake boats. On or off of the trailers they were huge. The MBs shined as the best value boat. The big 3 were doing what the big 3 do. The Pavatti was a steroid mess and belonged in the "go fast" boat building, same demographics. The new Supremes were pretty sharp. The Centurions were looking good sporting their new power towers. The Nautique power tower was a hot mess. Way too much going on. I didn't know Pontoons were so expensive these days. Last but not least whoever was selling the pillows in a bag made a freaking fortune because everybody was carrying 2-10 of them! I took more pics but they were just of parts of boats, not the whole things. https://i1284.photobucket.com/albums...sggcpbgiq.jpeg https://i1284.photobucket.com/albums...shz3ftn1c.jpeg |
Can't wait for the weather to be good so I can get back out in my MB!
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One of these days, i will see an MB in real life.
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Boat show season, keep them coming! I can't wait to see the Supra's that dealers are bringing to the shows.
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I did really like the walk through with the fold up seat backs on the sundecks of the SE550. It’s a nice compromise on the rear seats vs walk through argument.
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I checked their dealer locator, and the closest dealer to me is about 1000 miles away, halfway across the country. |
OK, now I'm curious: "pillows in a bag"?
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Not those pillows! Lol. Some memory foam style pillows that stuffed in a handbag type of bag. They were everywhere. |
And they are for..what?
Sorry, this is getting intriguing now! :p |
If it’s the same as whit I have seen at other shows, it’s probably those people peddling those “bamboo” or “memory foam” pillows at a booth.
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I was pretty disappointed with the boat show. Same ol same ol. The only boats in my price range to catch my attention & set up demos in the spring are the Fi23, MB B52 & want to demo the new Tomcat. Was looking forward to seeing the new Supremes but nah, disappointed. Really like Supra but out of my range. I like the A24 but the wife hates it so that won't be on the list. Overall it took me 2 hours to be bored & we left.
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I’m rather satisfied with what I found.
Came to see the pillows, bought two and have been sleeping like a baby ever since as I dream about my paid off boat. Will use the othe pillow on the boat’s driver seat or for the dog to nap on. Nice upgrade. |
at the atlanta boat show mastercraft was downright disapointing, nautique had a couple sick g23's but they really haven't changed much, liked all the malibu/axis stuff for the most part. supra/moomba was who really won over our group, for the price they had hands down the best line of boats there. one thing i noticed is prices hadn't gone up as much from last year to this year as they have been the last 5-8 years so im guessing thats a sign that dealers are feeling maxed out on what they can charge and hopefully prices will stay where theyre at for a bit.
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I bought a pillow & sheets [emoji23][emoji1591] also I think the best bang for the buck was the Makai. More features than the the new Supreme. I think the MB looks better but one pet peeve of mine with Cal Skier was....almost every MB they brought had carpet. WTF? It’s 2019 people..... Axis was so cheap inside. I can’t get over the dash. Supra SE would be my go to if I wasn’t married. Such a beautiful boat inside & out. IMHO it felt more comfortable & plush compared to the G. Pavati was sick but 300k? Come on....
In my price range if I were buying a 100k boat I would of wanted to test drive these. 1) Makai 2) 23 B52 3) ZS232 Without comparing waves I would choose Makai hands down based on features & looks. Around 150k budget I think I would test drive the.... 1) SE 550 2) RI 257 3) ZX5 Without comparing waves I would choose the SE hands down on features, looks & plushness. Someone told me the G23 there was over 180k...GTFOH with that Malibu 25LSV was a beaut but felt like they cut corners. Just my 2 cents [emoji2373] |
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^^nice post! |
Again those pillows!
People now go to boat shows to buy pillows..?? Back to boats: I'd rather spend time on CL where you can see $25K boats instead of 100K and up boat shows. It's a mad world. |
It's sad when i want to see a picture of these pillows everybody is talking about more than pictures of 150K boats.
"I'm like would those pillows look good on my new deck?? LOL |
^lol.
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Demoed a new '19 Supra SE late last summer. I liked the looks, and features. The wave was ok, but not as good as the other 3 boats I demoed. The biggest thing that kicked it out of the running for me, was the handling, ESPECIALLY the low speed, loaded handling.
I don't understand how Supra doesn't realize that they cant just double the weight of their boats without making drastic changes to the driveline and steering systems. The Ri257 was a similar experience, but not as bad (which is funny, considering how much bigger the 257 is). Supra and Centurion both need to upgrade to 2:1 gearboxes, 17-18" propellers, and a 17-19" rudder. The old SE was fairly lethargic already, but the new one is much worse, because of the additional weight. |
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Interesting observations! I spent a day on one in Nov. I thought it handled great and the wave with a bit more weight over stock was excellent. Best part being it was dead level weighted and switched clean as a whistle. I haven’t been on one that has impressed me more. I do have a day coming later this month on a ZX5... |
HAM WALLET!!!!!!! Best line ever used on Wakeworld! HAHAHAHAHAHAH
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Whos rode them all & who has the best wave? Has Ragboy ever put up the polar bear results?
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Actually, I take that back. The starboard wave was very good, and pretty close to the others. The port wave though...... not so much. Oddly enough, its the same on my buddies 2016 SE. I go goofy on that boat just to get the nicer wave. He calls his port wave “The nice family wave”. As for low speed, loaded handling...... I don’t really know how you could think it was great, especially if you are trying to turn to the opposite side that has the tab deployed when surfing. I was starting to wonder if it was going to turn at all. After the first couple times, i started to make sure to only turn to the side with the tab deployed. It turns that way a lot better. Maybe the biggest factor, is that I had recently demo’d a 25LSV, and an X24, and I owned an ‘18 XStar at that time. All 3 of which have a much bigger propeller and rudder than the SE..... especially the XStar. They put a 18” prop, and a 19” rudder on that boat. So maybe i am just used to a boat that turns much better when loaded. I had a G23 before that, and those don’t turn all that great either. These boats are just getting much heavier, and the SE is no exception. That thing is running well over 11k when loaded, and they are still trying to steer it with the same rudder they had on boats that were half as heavy. |
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The Fi25 compared the the ri257 almost comes down to personal preference. The two biggest differences in the wave is that the 257 is a tad longer and bigger overall. The reason some like the fi better is because it’s most likely similar to what people are riding.
My opinion on waves. The centurion Ri237/57 are top notch along with the new Supra SE. the zx5 is impressive but the goofy wave lacks a bit. |
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Does the Swell 3.0 surf plate stay deployed the whole time? I always turn away from the surfer, so I would not have noticed that. It’s the best way to avoid the big side rollers..... |
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And a lot of the other folks a say the MB B52 was the best, which illustrates the uselessness of drawing broad conclusions from events like this. The choice is personal. Sadly, the SL was far from dialed at the event too. The SL was missing most of it’s normal lead. Centurion provides the most ballast from factory, therefore is going to win a lot of stock to stock comparisons. |
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Same opinions here—I have little Centurion experience to be fair. I am sure they’re very good though! Their build quality left me a bit underwhelmed last time I looked (2018 models). |
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I think it retracts now that I have looked into it.......I don’t disbelieve what you say, but man my 2016 SE and the 2019 turned just fine to me. My Makai does too. In fact they turn slowly and as sharp as any boat I have ever had or ride. Like, they whip right around. I don’t turn under much power. They CRUSH the 2018 RZX3 and 2017 23LSV we regularly ride for tight radius. Maybe we feather the throttle just right. Always pull to neutral, let it rest, and power idle right around. Interesting to say the least! I wonder what’s different. |
I would like to hope with all the technology in the supra that they are auto retracting tabs but I honestly don't know. The centurions seem decently well built but lacks a bit in luxury. The upholstery seems very durable and like it will last, tower seems sturdy in chop. It's little things like no seat hinges, even though I thought they announced they had them in 19 my buddies boat does not. oh and there tabs stay fully down all the time, this can be good and bad. On the good you're less likely to be filling with them and getting inconstant results.
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I just asked my dealer who is generally all over technical things like this, who says they retract. I am pretty sure my flow tabs retract on my Makai, too. There’s a screen that shows them scrolling up and then back down....I am pretty darned sure. But, technically could be wrong! |
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That said, the only marina on my lake is a Supra/Moomba dealer. So, lots of my neighbors/friends have skiers choice products. I drive/ride a Helix, Max, and an SL, almost as much as my own boat, and none of them retract the tabs unless you put the boat in reverse. If they retract now, I’m guessing they have changed the software sometime last year. I can see how if you are always turning away from the surfer, it would turn fine. I always let the first roller go by, and then I always turn to starboard. I like to always loop around the rider on my side, so I can see them better. Plus, when you go by the rider on starboard, tapping reverse to stop will glide the back of the boat right in front of them. Either way, I think you’d have to drive one of the newer makes/models that has gone to much bigger running gear than SC is using. You would notice the difference immediately. |
Unbiased L.A. Boat Show thoughts
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I haven’t driven a new 25LSV, but we did demo a new XStar. I should have paid more attention. My friends list will feature 2 new X24s this summer so I can get me a taste! Even though practical chances of my buying a MC are zero. And the only Bu we have is a 2017 23LSV, so prob no big running gear. I do pull to neutral every time, maybe that retracts them. I maybe don’t know what I am missing, I guess. That could be it. I was not put off by it’s handing at all. I wonder if the 2018 RZX3 has a small rudder? It has a big prop and turns like a battleship against the prop P factor. |
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We went to the polar bear this year Boatless and with a open mind. This was not our first polar bear and I'm sure not our last. We have been friends with the Garcias for years. All the boats put out nice wakes and none of them were set up stock. The supra had it's normal set up the makai had a 1000lbs of lead the mb had 500lbs the master craft had 500 the centurion had 500 ect. You could be happy with any of these boats. Lots of things I really like about the supra and we have a great local dealer for them as well. But in the end the centurion wake won the day again for us so we placed our order when we got home. None of these boats would be a bad choice as long as you have dealer support. Dealer support will make or break the experience no matter the brand.
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Unbiased L.A. Boat Show thoughts
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I spoke directly to Robert, his Supra had 400# in it according to him, and also was not operated by the people that normally would have it dialed. And as I recall the Moomba had 700# in it for a while and 1000# in it for another while. Regardless, not enough for that tub. It’s light for its size. I know as I own one. A Makai with 1000# lead is not winning anything in a dialed-in contest. Not trying to champion any brand. It’s what was reported to me by the man himself when I asked. I was amazed that people were not higher on the SL immediately after the event, and it turned out there was a reason why. That’s why I asked. You went boatless? Didn’t you buy a new FI23 last year, and ditch it for an FI25 this year? I know you have posted a bunch of material on the MB forum about your Centurion affinity. I would guess you might have a little Fineline bias. |
Love it .You don't attended the event but want to make excuses for the results. I am not new to this and have no reason to make any of it up. I went really hoping to be blown away by the supra but that did not happen so yes we are back in another centurion.
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Pointing out these things to illustrate that Polar Bear, Southern Surf Fest etc; produce opinion polls that are heavy in bias and light on information. A bad setup, a bad driver, inaccurate lead impressions, whatever.....they add to the unreliability of the “results”...
Not to poopoo the event. It’s designed to be a fun event to sample variety, not as a boat shootout. If you still think that one boat is better than another boat or one brand is better than another at producing surf waves, you’re drinking too much KoolAid. The ALL have potential to produce killer waves with the right and unique formula. Pick a boat with a good layout, size, price etc; consider your dealer and go from there. They’re all able to be dialed and to rip. Nobody has any secrets anymore, friends. |
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Well, for one, you have no clue how much lead was in it. So we can start there. |
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I have no reason to attend the event. Nor the time. It’s limited in its utility to provide information. Waaay too many variables. It would be fun to meet the people though! |
Unbiased L.A. Boat Show thoughts
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You want a Supra demo? Go out for a day on a dialed SL rather than surf one on a strange board for 15 minutes back to back with a bunch of other boats. All I am saying is, it’s a bit like judging a book by its cover. All these brands rock. Including Tige, who was not even in the lineup if I am not mistaken. And I never said you “made anything up.” |
Was on my own board. Supra Wake was good like most of the boats the fi just checked more boxes for us.
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Roger that. I totally get it. You had mentioned that the wave was “leaps and bounds” better than the rest, and using superlatives like that often is because something was amiss. The SL was unfortunately not on point weight wise. When people evaluate boats in a setting like that, they’re subject in a large part to the demonstrator’s limits, and that’s often not an accurate assessment. I think it’s fair to acknowledge this. All of these new boats kick serious butt when done right. Nobody has any wave secrets. I would happily own a Centurion. Or any of them. They’re sweet as hell! |
The centurion wake was just so much longer and taller than the others that is what I meant by leaps and bounds but all the boats put out nice wakes on both sides. Like I said above if someone has good dealer support one could be happy with any of the boats tested.
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Except in the real world, it’s not. It may have been at this event as you report. I have heard lots of folks proclaim the same praise for the MB wave at the same event. So what gives? |
Unbiased L.A. Boat Show thoughts
Awesome! Sounds like it was working good that day! Centurion does not have a secret formula for a “so much taller and longer” wave.
There are no secrets. Weight and some system to clean it up and alter flow. From there, it’s gravy with shape, lip, steepness, etc....pick your brand badge. And as you state, a good dealer is key! In the end, all waves are minimally different from each other, according to personal preferences. |
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It’s not magic that a Fi25 or Ri257 would have a much bigger and longer stock wave than a SL or SE. They are longer/bigger, and much heavier. They are all very good, and can make any surfer happy these days. That doesn’t change the fact that the biggest and heaviest boats are generally putting out bigger waves. |
Unbiased L.A. Boat Show thoughts
Except the numbers are as follows:
Ri257: 6150# SE: 6150# Fi25: 5850# SL: 5600# In the case if the SE vs the Ri, the excess length actually hurts in in this case, as it will be slightly harder to sink with more surface area. Heavy 23-24ish foot boats really occupy a sweet spot in this discussion. Easy to sink deep, and let additional speed lengthen it out for you if you wish. SL for example is shorter by a whole 1.5’. Give it equal weight (ballast plus native weight together) to the FI and the playing field is very level. |
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But you are right. It’s all about getting there. Nothing magic. They all need dialed in some way. They all need weight and lots of it. |
Mb wake was awesome. It would have made my top three for sure if the boat was a little bigger and did not take so much water over the bow. But you can't take away the fact you get a lot of wake for the $$ with the b52
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Totally. Good value there. That bow weight does get it pretty low. |
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Unbiased L.A. Boat Show thoughts
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Yep. You’re tracking with my point. If they don’t have the weight they need, they don’t do as well. The secret ingredient: weight vs hull size. They need to sink. Hence why an SL with 400# lead might not seem great. Or a Makai with even 1000# lead might not dazzle (that’s basically a stock SE spec-wise). They’re UNDERWEIGHTED to dish out their max wave. If you want the Ri wave, toss 1000# or a bit more in an SE. It suddenly blows your mind when the math is the same as the Ri. You can either have it all from the factory (Centurion, MB) and have less storage available or have less ballast from the factory and have more storage whilst adding lead to get to the endpoint. 2 routes to the same ultimate result. |
Dakota4ce
What is the perfect formula on the SL then? I ordered mine and it arrives in April. I was going to buy some lead, but how much? I ride Regular, but my Daughters are both Goofy. I feel I could of gotten the SE with slightly less options at the same price as what I got the SL for. I just didn't want such a massive boat. I am very happy with my decision going with the SL and can't wait to get it. The 2019 SL has a much larger prop this year 16x15 I think. The engine has more torque too for 2019. I want to say it is now closer to the badging of 450. |
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Yes. New motor is great—it is the new 450. Have you also caught the 1.76 trans change? By the sounds of your prop, yes.....you can actually run an even taller prop on would be my guess. I have 16-16.25 and it’s excellent at 1300’. An SL with 1000# lead and a few folks is a dynamite machine. Like, really really good. You’ll be stoked to the hills. Both waves will be excellent. 1000# is how Robert Garcia runs/ran his. It’s how my surf pal does it too, except his is a 550. Autowake typically off, and just meet the angles needed with max weight. You’ll be tickled. |
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1000 lbs of lead? If that is what it takes to get the same wake with the supra that I get with the centurion I won't even be able to consider supra until more factory ballast is available. With the weight of these new boats 1000lbs of lead to tow around all the time is crazy . I'm sure it's fine if just towing a boat but we like to travel to different lakes and throw a truck camper into the equation. This pic is with a 23 the 25 is going to be crazy big.
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Unbiased L.A. Boat Show thoughts
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Yes. The boat has no bags in compartments for those who like that particular feature in a boat.... I thought you knew how Robert normally ran his boat? He runs 1000# of lead. The boat has zero clue it’s there. Again, there’s no magic here. Weight is weight my friend. There’s no way around it. You could accomplish the same by adding rear bags in this case to an SL, just like your Centurion has. Then you would have your 1000# and no storage. Lead or water, I guess you could choose to add either to a new SL. In this case the question was how much lead. So I answered in that way. Substitute “water” for “lead.” It would be about $400 worth of bags and hose. |
Robert had 600 lbs in the boat that's a little more manageable
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