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My opinion on my new Axis vs previous Moomba
This review is mainly for those looking to get into the wakeboat community in the "price point" line of boats. Moomba has been known as the leading price point boat but then came along Axis. In Sept 2009 I bought a new leftover 2008 Moomba XLV (23ft). Thought I had a great boat until I traded it in on the Axis A22. The straw that broke the camel's back was that the Moomba XLV just sucked at getting a clean wake at less then 23-24mph on BOTH sides. My speedo on the XLV was not GPS calibrated and another XLV owner I've chatted with agreed that his could not get a clean wake on both side below 22.7mph on his speed control. I'm a beginner still as well as my lady friend. I really wanted to have clean, crisp wakes that were firm without feeling like I was tripping over a curb. The Axis seemed to be the perfect answer and is. Clean wakes down to 18mph all day. Here's a list of pros and cons I can think of immediately between the new 2011 Axis A22 and my previous 2008 Moomba XLV.
Axis pros vs. Moomba XLV:
Bottom line to my...in my opinion is, if you are going to spending upper $40k into the $50k range on a wakeboat the Axis is by far the better boat. If you are a wakeboarder who likes to surf occassionally or regularly the Axis will do both with no problem. The ease of setting up the Axis without the weight sensitivity of the Moomba and the better quality of the Axis over the Moomba makes it a better choice. It rides better, feels better, drives better, and overall is better dollar for dollar. |
Forgot to add, if you are over 6'00"-6'01" the Moomba tower is slightly taller.
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NICE comparison of a 2008 to a 2011.Moomba makes an excellent beginner boat,as does Axis.Which one cost more?Did you water test a new Moomba?How about a MB or CENTURION?I completely understand where you are coming from.You are justifing your decision and telling us what you like.Congrats on your new boat and enjoy.But it's not fair to compare a new boat to a 3 year old boat.
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what about getting wet? i know your XLV was friggin terrible about that. splashes off the bow getting you wet behind the windshield and rear seats.
i know you said the axis windsheild is pretty low. im just glad you got rid of that old ****ty wake! haha and i have to disagree with you on a few of the moomba bashings. especially with my '11 LSV. its clean down to 16, not side to side sensitive, and can one finger steer. and my 11 handles rough water good. much better than the 03. Robert T my 11 LSV was 46 i built a similiar A20 and was quoted 54. i know what AJ paid for his A22(from same dealership) because i was there (floor model, not custom built) but dotn want to post that as some people prefer to keep that quiet. AJ im so happy for you man. that old boat(wake) was really holding you back. enjoy the **** out of it my man! |
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I am glad you are enjoying your Axis so much! We absolutely love ours!
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The axis blows away the mooba, such a better boat all the way around
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The axis has a AWESOME wake,but i've seen multiple video's Cory has made behind his boat and i see nothing like what you are talking about.I know he has had lots of friends out with him to create some imbalance in weight,but no wake wash was evident.People have beaten me up over my new boat.To me it doesn't matter because in the end only me and my wife have to be happy in the boat.I think you really like your new boat and it is very sharp.But i also think you are being too hard on Moomba.I have friends with MOOMBA'S and never had any problems with their wakes.Let's just leave it that they are both good boats but you like the Axis much better.You don't have to justify it to us you bought it that in itself is a big statement.
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Robert, you are also talking about Cory's previous 03 Moomba LSV which is today's Outback V...a 20ft hull. I'm talking about an XLV...not the LSV or Outback V. I rode behind Corys older boat and it was very nice, soft wake...very forgiving. Haven't ridden behind his '11 LSV but see him weekly on the lake and the wake looks great and they usually pull 21-22mph and slower depending on if they are working on new tricks or technique. I don't think I'm being hard in my opinion on the XLV, just stating what I've come to learn from it. I haven't owned any other Moomba model so I can't compare the Axis to them. I really would like to ride in Cory's '11 LSV in 25-30mph chop to feel the ride to see if the 2011's are more solid compared to my '08.
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The wake of an XLV was holding you back? Im 34 (yes Old) have had the boat for 3 years and have learned all the following on the XLV wake (Tantrums, backrolls, R2R's, Raleys, 180's, HS and TS 360s, wrapped 360's both ways. I had one of the Top junior riders in canada come out and ride behind my boat last summer (he was throwing 5's and 7's) and they now own an LSV for their wakeboard school.
I have also been on quite a few bigger wakeboats and when fully loaded all of them were a bit touchy side to side, I think this is the biggest plus of the axis, slow speed and less sensitive to weight. Wake here wasn't holdingh me back. speed was 22: http://www.vimeo.com/13834181 |
Levi, I'll be 40 in 3 months. I learn tricks/jumps with a slower learning curve than a fearless 16yr old so I like to try them shortline at slower speeds then work my way out. The XLV is not a good boat for that. Cory (Stang killer) has been in my XLV and knows first hand how side to side sensitive the XLV is which does suck when/if you take non-boarders out and have to tell them where to sit and/or start hitting switches to try to clean up the wake...that got old fast. If somebody is willing to spend $50k+/- on an XLV or an Axis...the Axis is the better choice.
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Never ridden behind an XLV but getting a clean wake at slower speeds is tough for any 23' boat. Especially once you add ballast.
The Moomba LSV sounds like it would have been a better fit for you and would have been a more interesting comparison. |
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Malibu's in general have very clean wakes. Some of that goes away if you use the wedge and don't add some weight to the front but pretty much every one I have been behind has had a really clean wake on both sides.
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The price you pay for a steeper wake is it will wash at lower speeds. Not saying one is better than the other but it is different strokes for different folks. Malibu is not known for a steep wake and hence the ability to keep clean at lower speeds. You add more weight to a Malibu or any boat it is gonna gain more mass and wash at lower speeds.
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Considering that the XLV is a 23 foot boat that is built for intermediate and pro level wakeboarding then trying to ride it at 18 mph as a beginner will be frustrating. That's why you test drive before you buy, you would've been better suited to buy an LSV which has a similar wake and size to the Axis. If Axis built a 23 foot boat it would not have a clean wake at lower speeds either.
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The axis has a much larger wake than the moomba lsv, it's more comprable to the malibu LSV, that's what I was trying to get at
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I'm comparing the wake of that boat to the lux boat, nothing else. Moomba doesn't make a boat that compares to the axis wakewise. The axis wake better compares to a sacked out xstar
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...also good luck finding an A-22 for 45k anymore, they are in the mid 50 to mid 60's range now
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The moomba lsv makes a great wake if weighted right. Most people don't give them a shot because it's a moomba.
http://www.wakebrasil.com/Video/317/...ny-e-nick.aspx |
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Personally, I think that the A22 wake is bigger and thicker than any wake I've ever ridden. The A22 hull does not create the same lift as the LSV and VLX in the rear. This is one of the reasons why you have to weigh the nose of the A22 to get a nice surf wave. Cutting out from beind a well weighted A22 and riding over the wake is like dropping off a ledge, as opposed to riding up the back side of a big wake and down the face of the wake. Point is, you get tons of pop off of the lip on the A22 because it provides substantial resistance all the way to the top of the wake.
Also, I think that the A22 takes less weight to produce a bigger wake than a VLX or LSV. Just my .02. (I did used to own an VLX and have a friend who owns an LSV...) |
The Singleton Marine video is a much better representation as to what the A22 wake is like. Remember Vandall rides at like 90ft at 26+mph.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gszNwDXd3UE 1:17 and 2:48 give a good picture of the face of the wake. |
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I know from recent exp that the LSV creates a larger wake with less weight than the axis. with 1200lbs in the LSV we were getting a similar sized wake to the axis we ride behind with over 2000lbs. The large difference is that the LSV wake is more rampy, but has every bit as much pop. I personally prefer ramp to steeper wakes. |
My preference to ramp ofver steep is my boat has a rampy wake, and I think it's mentally easier to charge a wake wiht a long ramp while holding an edge than charging a wall.
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Chris, that's cool man. We'll just have to agree to disagree regarding the LSV vs. A22 wake. :)
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I will agree that the LSV wake is very rampy and somewhat mellow compared to the A22 wake. I do not agree that it has as much pop.
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THe hardness and pop of the wake is directly relative to how much weight you're putting int he front of the boat. If you're running 900lbs in the front of the axis and 300lbs in the LSV, you're going to get more pop out of the axis, equal out the ballast up front and you'll find they are almost identical in pop, though the LSV may be a bit bigger
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I'm running close to 1200lbs of ballast in the bow of my VTX, and amount of pop it throws surprises most riders the first time they hit, including those who ride behind an axis the majority of the time. You sink the entire boat down and you're going to have a much harder and poppier wake than if you only sink the back end.
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Chris, I agree that by placing weight in the nose of a boat, you can cause the wake to be more peaky. However, IMO, with the vlx and lsv, by the time you get the wake shaped up and firm, the lip is a lot thinner than that which you get behind the A22. As a result, you don't get quite the verticle pop that you get with a wake that has a little more solidity at the top.
To each their own bro, but I owned a vlx, I've ridden many times behind an lsv, and while I like the wakes very very very much behind those boats, I do not think that those wakes have quite the pop that the A22 wake has. It's just one guy's opinion. Like I said, we can agree to disagree. |
And Chris, I'm running about 2k in the rear of my A22, + the wedge, plus the 500lb center tank and the 900lb nose sac. When we have people in the cabin, I also fill a sac and throw it in the nose of my A22.
The thickness of the A22 wake is one of the reasons why it stays so clean so far back and why it also is not very sensitive to changes in weight distribution - like when someone moves around in the boat. |
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Chris rides behind our Axis with the same wake set up you have Chatt. It is definitely thick and meaty. His wake on his VTX with about 2500lbs and wedge is very rampy/peaky. I am the one he is talking about in his post when he says this "amount of pop it throws surprises most riders the first time they hit, including those who ride behind an axis the majority of the time". That damn wake launched me way out into the flats and I landed on my man parts. It was probably one of the most painful wrecks of my life lol. I freaking love the Axis wake but man his wake just launched me. Totally wasn't expecting it since I hadn't ridden his new ballast set up. I am obviously biased towards Axis but I think they throw the best wake out of the box with the PnP system out of any of the boats out there.
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I guess I should clarify that the sac we run in the bow when we slam the boat is that 1000lb bow triangle you see in that singleton video. But I can definitely plane out w 2k in the rear 500 in the center and the 900-1000lb pnp nose sac w wedge down if there is no one in the boat but me. I've got the 400hp raptor and high altitude prop though.
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Well, I guess the "pop" I'm referring to is that nice vertical up and down pop I get behind my boat. My knees can't handle landing out in the flats anymore. Haha. I've got no doubt that his wake is super nice! I've just got my preferences.
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We took our old PnP bags and have put them up front So I have to imagine we are running similar weights when fully slammed. Being at 5k ft we can't plane with the wedge but really with that much weight the wedge isn't necessary. Still it was cool as hell when we had the boat in OK at Lake Eufaula and were able to load up everything and run the wedge. The wake was the biggest I have ever hit. Made the mistake of letting a newer female rider hit it (she really really really wanted to hit it) that ended up with her in tears. Half were from her slamming into the water and the other half were because she was so proud of herself for charging such a big wake. Chris's wake is awesome but like you I like the Axis wake better. My body doesn't do well landing in the flats either lol.
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POP doesn't come from a peaky wake, it comes from upward energy the wake is producing when you edge your board down against it, and the line tension that pulls you up. The more of your boat you have down in the water the more up ward energy the wake is going to produce. You don't need a peaky lip to launch
. A rampy wake can produce just as much POP as a steep one. If it was about peak then speed would be the key and not holding your edge. |
Line tension is also key in your downward force against the wakes upward energy
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Chris, to suggest that a mellow rampy wake with less of a hard lip will produce the same vertacle pop as a large, beefy, and peaky wake makes no sense to me. If it were all about line tension, then no one would need extra ballast to make their wakes bigger and we'd all still be riding behind pure ski boats instead of v-drives. I agree that line tension is important, but the mannerisms and structure of a wake are also extremely important; hence the creation and explosion of the wakeboat market.
Yes, upward energy is what produces pop, which is generated by the surface of the board pushing back against the face and lip of the wake. If your wake is not peaky, your energy will not be as vertacle, but more angled (this is why, with the same cut, some wakes send you out into the flats and some buck you more straight up). The thickness of the wake and lip also provide more resistance for the board to push against. I'm no physics major, but I'm relatively intelligent, I've been riding for 10 years, I've owned a bunch of different wakeboats, ridden behind a lot of wakeboat models that I haven't owned, and I feel like I understand makes a good wake for me - which is one that produces nice, consistent, vertacle pop, generated by a nice, firm lip, but which also has some ramp to it, and with a nice transition to land on. |
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Define peaky, because most wakeboard boats have peaky wakes, some just have higher lips, and longer transitions. I personally like longer transitions for two reasons, 1. is allows me increase my edge on the way up and 2. makes for smother landings on the way down. The lip itself is not going to change the pop, it will just change trajectory, but not as much as you would think. A rampy wakeboat wake can and will have just as much energy as a steep wake if weighted properly. The energy is not rounded on a rampy wake, I'm not sure where you got that idea. Rampy refers to the transition, not the peak of the wake itself Someone who understands how to use line tension and edge can do more with less than someone who purely relies upon the wake shape, and can get more vertical pop off an I/O wake than someone relying on an axis wake size for their jump. You've owned lots of boats, but your posts lead me to believe you need more experience with how to weight them correctly to get the wake you want. I'm not meaning this as a dig, just an observation from comments about your struggles with your 230, which can get a very clean wake with a ton of weight, and not knowing you need to weight the bow for surfing. One of the great things about the axis boat is that they did a lot of the figuring on weighting the boat for you. It's something boat makers should have done long ago. |
Just clarify on the not having experience weighting a boat, I really didn't mean that as a dig, and in now way mean that you aren't more than capable of doing so. It sounds like you swap boats every year and may not get to know them like you would if you kept them longer. I have zero exp installing stereo systems, if I put my mind to it I could do it, I kind of mean it that way.
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Look man, I'm not going to sit here and argue with you. The crew I ride with, which includes guys who are intimately familiar with the design and construction of both your boat and my boat, are well known and respected riders, and/or own dealerships selling various wakeboat brands, know what the heck they're doing when it comes to weighing a boat and riding. Well, after ten years of riding and 7 different boats, I feel like I know how to figure out how to weigh a boat properly. Before buying an a22 I researched that boat intensely. I know exactly what hull characteristics cause my boat to produce the wake it does and why it is different from a vtx or lsv.
As to my 230's, I know that many people have issues keeping a clean wake behind a slammed 230 without having to ride at 25.5+ mph. Go back an reread that thread about the 230 wake. Feel free to go buy one yourself and prove me wrong too. I owned 3. Put over 500 hours of riding time on them. 4 of my friends still own them and one of them sells them. You don't like or agree with my opinions, that's cool. However, you felt the need to call me out and try to suggest I don't know what I'm talking about in regard to weighting boats. Sure, I think that's offensive because you don't know me or the guys I ride with. For the record, it makes me question your opinions when you clearly ignore the fact that no matter where you put weiight or how much you use different hulls will produce different shape wakes. The wake behind the a22 is not the same as that behind your vtx, an lsv, a vlx, a 210, a 230, an xstar, etc, no matter how you weigh those boats. You can alter the characteristics of a wake by weighing a boat differently, but you simply cannot overcome the characteristics of a boats hull. I wasn't trying to get into a huge argument with you, and I'm going to stop posting in this thread now before this gets into a big pissing contest. I have nothing against you, but I disagree with some of your comments. It's perfectly fine to disagree. Sounds like you have found the wakes you really love, so have I. That's all that's really important. Hahaha |
Oh, and I disagree that a harder, lippier wake will not produce more vertacle pop. It will. And, once again, the vlx hull is not the same as the a22 hull and the vtx hull is not the same as the a20 hull. There are significant differences, which cause those boats to all produce different wakes. Some like the vlx or vtx wakes best, some like the a22 and a20 wakes best. They are different and produce different pop. Just wanted to clear that up before I ignore this thread and go back to a thread with higher entertainment value, like one with girls in bikinis!
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Ive been wondering if having all that weight is really needed.Is it being lazy or bad technique that requires some to "need" such a ridiculous wake? Ive just seen plenty of older videos of guys doing inverts,huge airs etc with far smaller wakes. I also see far to many people cruising around fully ballasted barely going wake to wake. As wakes get larger and larger and people roll with them all the time irritating a large majority of other boaters on the water i wonder if it is really needed? Its an honest question if you are not Pro or prepping for a competition why do people need a huge wake everytime out?
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I already proved the big wake theory wrong with a 95' wake jump on a stock wake at 23mph and a 90' toeside 180 on a stock wake.I'll try 100 feet this year.
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@Robert: I compare it to my problem with golf clubs -- I want to buy what the pros are playing (blades, titleist ap2s, etc) but in reality, i'd probably be better off playing with some game-improvement irons. The last two years all I wanted to do was make a larger, fatter, better wake and go faster and faster cause I was having problems with basic tricks. Vandall rides at X - so should I ... I should have realized that it was more a lack of proper technique and kept to slower speeds and smaller (though fair sized) wakes....
All and all, this is going to be a pissing contest over who owns what type of boat. I had a Malibu XTI direct drive and swore I had a better wake than my buddy with a XLV Moomba. Reality is, its what your used to.... |
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"Its an honest question if you are not Pro or prepping for a competition why do people need a huge wake everytime out?"
because I like to surf!!! |
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Pretty proud of your weighting skills in this thread? Youv'e told 10 people that they don't know how to weight a boat and then bragged almost incessently about how awesome you and your VTX are. |
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wakeworld
"I've been riding for 15 years and have owned 15 boats, have had 7,000lbs ballast or more in all of them and have pulled the PWT for 12 years running" chris "you have no idea how much more dialed my VTX is than your set up.. Biggest pop of any wakeboat ever built + 20' faced walls to surf rivaled only by the North Shore" K |
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I'm 30 and sold my boat last fall as we had a baby and are building a new house.. Thanks for proving my point though ;) |
If your point is that you like to jump in and stir it up that's fine. Our conversation was over, but you want to come in and add your 2 cents feel free, but atleast add something to the conversation....
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I'd say that's sufficient. Like you said - it's over.. So.. It's over.. And you're an assclown.. Now everyone has got to add their .02 in! :) |
And if it matters (I know it doesn't to Chris) - the LSV, VTX and A22 all make sick wakes.. All very different - but dope wakes.. I'd take the A22 wake anytime when its' slammed out. Best for the money..
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u mad? |
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He mad
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obv mad |
This thread is starting to get good.
Chris, I think Jeff and Chatt are both guys who are fairly knowledgable. You sound fairly knowledgable as well. You kind of ask for it the way you try and convey your message as a complete know it all, which makes your message come across as demeaning. As far as the boats go I would like to have any of them. That being said I would rather have the A20 or A22 over a Mobius LSV. Hell, I would rather have a Sanger V215 over a Mobius LSV any day of the week. They are roughly the same cost now with the same options yet the Sanger is a much better put together boat and has a much nicer fit and finish. |
Not mad but sad. Stoke sucking sad.
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My wake is sooooo bomb.... i put my girlfriend in the bow and about 1500lb in the rear locker... its a 60/40 split in wieght.... wake is makcin for a io, my bros leave thier moombas and axis at the dock... there so jelly
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^^ pure win.
I checked out most of the new boats at the Seattle Boat Show, but didn't have time to demo them all. IMO the fit and finish of the decked out Moomba is at least as good as the Axis. Neither are comparable to a Malibu or Mastercraft... Nor should they be, I don't think the core rider or family man can responsibly afford those boats. I liked the Axis pickle nose and the more racy graphics. I found both interiors to be somewhat spartan, although the Moomba has more of a classic theme and the Axis is more racy/modern. I thought a lot about which will age better in terms of style, with no clear conclusions. There's a big cost diff on the used market. I just got a Mobius XLV for >$7.5k less than a comparable used Axis. I'm not sure if the Axis is worth an extra 20% (or often more, some used Axis apparently haven't depreciated AT ALL). The idea of a better wake behind the Axis is appealing to me, but to be honest the wake behind the sacked-out Moomba is definately no joke. I can confirm what YDM said about the XLV weight sensitivity -- I tend to get a little wash on the port side of the wake, but it's nothing extreme. I may swap to a different prop and see how that affects the shape, as well as upgrading bags etc. I know for the time being it's a lot of boat for a little money, and if the day comes that I want a different ride there seems to be a strong market for used XLVs. |
A friend of mine has a Moomba MOBIOUS LSV and the wake is great at even 16 mph where his son rides.A shorter rope of course.But any boat can be permanantly adjusted with lead or the 50 lb water brick.Either method is much cheaper than buying a new boat.But then you don't get the pleasure of bashing boats that cost less than your new one.LOL
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