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-   -   New boat company? Reflect boats (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=806250)

sidekicknicholas 04-23-2016 7:39 PM

New boat company? Reflect boats
I saw this today -


patrick232 04-23-2016 9:17 PM

I seen this also, has my interest.

norcalbordr 04-23-2016 9:36 PM

I'd like to see some real pics rather than computer models. I'm not a big fan of the shape of the bow from what I've seen. I want to know more about the forward drive. The prop looks pretty crazy. No price announced yet either.

meathead65 04-24-2016 7:49 AM

Interesting referral commission.....5k cash.

mlzelenik 04-24-2016 12:29 PM

That power tower looks really interesting other than the fact Id probably knock myself out on it at some point haha. I'm thinking optioned out this boat will cost a pretty penny

501s 04-24-2016 1:17 PM

Looks like it will be another $100k+ I/O Surf boat.

While the concept/idea is good, every photo of a surf wave behind an I/O looks tiny which usually means they are even smaller in real life. Has anyone on here actually wakeboarded or surfed one of the new reverse drive I/Os?

matt_ostmeyer 04-30-2016 12:03 AM

Hello All!

Thanks for the interest in the new boat, and thanks Nick for starting the thread! The first boat will be on the water in early June, and real photos and video of the maiden voyage will follow!

Matt, don't be worried about your head on the hard top/power tower... I'm 6'5" and designed it to be well clear of my head, even entering and exiting the sundeck!

Pricing will be released as soon as we work though the last bit of negotiations, but to generalize, the loaded up purchase price will be in the low $100's, for a product comparable with the $130-$150k competition. And, yes, there is a referral commission. If you haven't checked it out yet, look at the "Ride Rewards" section on the website. There will be customers who make enough to repay their boat within a couple years. www.reflectboats.com

The foundation of this boat is to make a more efficient, premier performance wakeboard boat. When I built the Epic electric boat, we were limited in runtime, and I felt that improvement could be made to the running surface and drive. This boat is built on an evaluation of 18 different hull shapes and configurations, leading us to the production running surface, which is about 30% lower drag than the other big wakeboats.

I have been a proponent of dual propellers on wakeboats since the introduction of IPS a decade ago. I was lucky enough to get to put my hypothesis to the test on one of the electric boat prototypes. We were running a V-Drive on electric power, which allowed us to see exactly how much power the boat was consuming. We removed the V-Drive setup from that boat and glassed a pocket into the bottom of that hull, where we mounted the lower end of a Mercruiser Bravo III, in a fixed position pod drive setup, steered by the dual rudders behind the propellers. That boat consumed 12-15% less power than the V-Drive version did, and the wake was far better. There was no bias port to starboard, and it actually stood up taller and cleaner.

Fast forward to the introduction of the Forward Drive, and we finally have a production solution. We could rig this boat as a V-Drive, but, run side-by-side with the Forward Drive version, we believe that 90% of customers will prefer the Forward Drive. Keep in mind, that this is the first and only Forward Drive put onto an actual watersports hull, with enough ballast to do the job.

One of the biggest benefits of this boat, if you're concerned with fuel costs and environmental impact, is that you'll burn about 35% less fuel than the competition. Also, the features you'll get with this boat, many of which do not exist anywhere else, are pretty stacked.

Thanks again for all your interest and comments!

I'm very excited to share video and photos of the maiden voyage with you all! In the mean time, I'll check back here from time to time, and I'm always available through the contact on the website.


Jmorlan 04-30-2016 12:28 AM

This thing is ugly. No way I'd pay 100k for it lol. Sorry.

donb 04-30-2016 1:37 AM

Kudos to your company for daring to be different. Provided the wake/wave can match the v-drive wakeboats, you may have a winner.
Would love to see one at an event such as the Polar Bear put on by Wake9.

sidekicknicholas 04-30-2016 9:52 AM

Thanks for all the info Matt!

I'm too poor to swing one, but excited to see what it can do, wish you guys the best!

tyler97217 04-30-2016 11:38 AM

Yeah kudos to doing something different and being an entrepreneur. It was cool to follow the old WW post a decade ago of Chris Anthony building the epic from scratch and starting a company. Also watching Pavati do the same. Not an easy nut to crack and very cool. Good luck to you.

matt_ostmeyer 04-30-2016 11:50 AM

Glad to have the forum to answer your questions!

Can't wait to get it on the water and ride it side-by-side with the big V-Drives!

The sport needs lower cost boats, as well as lower operating costs. With the introduction of some great low cost entry level boats from Heyday, Moomba, Tige and others, we felt that tackling the lower operating costs without compromising wake quality would be a better entry for our brand. But also, I really like huge wakes, and this is the boat I will ride! Of course, we can remove options like the stereo, heater, lighting, and even tower (as awesome as it will be!) to lower the purchase price. But 24' of fiberglass with the structure to support 4400 pounds of ballast and 16 passengers, as well as the 54" freeboard required for legal and safe operation, unfortunately, has a price tag.

Given a successful first year, there are several strong concepts we've got in mind for the next models. A pricepoint towboat is one of the options!

Thanks for all the well wishes!

kenv 05-01-2016 4:45 PM

At first glance, didn't really knock my socks off....but I can say the pic of the green one with the "Roof" from a different angle doesn't look all that bad. Kinda futuristic and sleek at the same time. It would take ALOT to get me out of my Nautique...maybe more then a boat with an I/O could ever offer...but...I like it.

cadunkle 05-01-2016 6:03 PM

Well it's interesting for sure. The retractable hardtop tower seems pretty nifty if it doesn't get in the way. Maybe more appealing to those doing more than just water sports. Kind of an ugly boat overall IMO, but at the end of the day it just has to make a good wake. I can appreciate everything around the engine being quickly and easily removable. Nice for a hull engineer to consider the guy who has to maintain the whole boat. I also appreciate a 71 gallon tank and lower GPH.

I don't understand the comment about the sport needing lower cost boats, yet this is a $100k boat. I think much more than $30k (entering new luxury car price?) is not affordable for the masses. This boat is going after the top inboards and priced slighty below them. An average Joe will be comparing this and inboards (cheaper inboards too, Moomba, Axis) to either a new Bayliner/SeaRay/whatever or a used comparably priced but relatively new inboard. Personally I have zero interest in anything with an outdrive that's under 30' and has a single engine. I like classic inboard styling and feel, and I don't want to deal with the extra parts and maintenance an outdrive has. I'm not your target demographic at $100k though, and I'd never save the difference in fuel costs at 75-100 hours/yr. It's nice to see something different though, and it's kind of a cool boat. I'm curious to see how the hull and drive perform. Best of luck to you.

cowwboy 05-02-2016 9:03 AM

I still find it quite interesting that the reason we were given for the six figure boats was oil prices driving raw materials up.
Yet this is some of the lowest oil prices that I can remember and prices have only gone up.

beg4wake 05-02-2016 9:30 AM

Does that tower not get in the way of the rope? I would just see the rope rubbing all over it, especially at the angle of a surf rope !

RAMZAK 05-05-2016 9:47 PM

Looks super cool, Love the looks!
Great idea overall

Dislike the transom stereo as when your on the party cove and blasting your tunes, you dont want to bust eardrums sitting on the swim deck, plus surfacode mount speakers dont come close to the WS and Exile Pods

There no way this needs to cost $100, or any boat for that matter. There maybe a $1000 worth of fiberglass in any boat, $4K trailer, $10k engine, 4@k uhpolestery, $2K computer/screen, etc.... I dont see the numbers adding up to $100K on ANY boat. But they dont care

meathead65 05-05-2016 10:37 PM

Please let me know where I can buy a current catalyst equipped MPI engine with a tranny and v-drive unit for 10K. Or for that matter 20K. Add in shaft, strut, rudder and prop and your are realistically looking at 20-25K even at the manufacturers pricing, for a base HP drivetrain. Start piling on the horsepower and the costs pile right on along with 'em.

RAMZAK 05-05-2016 11:34 PM

You cant because the markup in this industry is stupid....

How much do you think it costs wetsounds to make their $1200 speaker pod? I bet its less than $100

Shockthis 05-05-2016 11:51 PM

It think it is funny how the are marketing to people that are concerned with environmental impact, one would think you would just buy a canoe or a make a raft out of recycled materials, or maybe just let the lake house property grow back to its natural state, get a couple cows and chickens and live off the land, then you will save a ton of gas and you can get your self a nice tractor.

diamonddad 05-06-2016 12:10 AM

Matt, thanks for pushing the state of the art and joining our conversation. Your innovative ideas look very interesting!

absurd 05-06-2016 9:55 AM

The rising prices of these boats is crazy. But you have to understand that the prices of materials ,engines,trailer ,stereo ,tower etc. add up and they don't put themselves together , theres labor cost,building lease or rent , workman's comp insurance , electrical bills , advertising , shipping, warranty work the list goes on. I get it . I definitely don't want a boat built in china. but yes , bring the prices down.

cadunkle 05-06-2016 11:50 AM


Originally Posted by RAMZAK (Post 1934745)
There no way this needs to cost $100, or any boat for that matter. There maybe a $1000 worth of fiberglass in any boat, $4K trailer, $10k engine, 4@k uhpolestery, $2K computer/screen, etc.... I dont see the numbers adding up to $100K on ANY boat. But they dont care

Only $1k of fiberglass in a boat? Clearly you have never restored a boat. Material costs just to do a stringer job is in the $3k-$6k range depending if you go wood or composite and polyester vs epoxy. That's without ever figuring any materials costs for an actual hull with gel on it. Hulls don't just build themselves either, you need a mold too. I've heard the cost to make a new mold is well over $100k, likely that includes labor hours for design and so forth.

OK I heard you on $4k trailer, but are you set up to build your own to fit your hull? Unless you have a lot of fabricating experience doing that sort of work you're gonna be in a lot of time to do it and you'll need a decent size building to work it. Same with engine, sure you can build your own driveline for under $10k if you're not charging for your time and your not subject to government violence if you don't meet some emissions standard and spend hundreds of thousands or even millions testing for compliance and certification to asinine government edict.

I could go on and on, but there are design and testing costs to bringing a new boat to market, significant overhead for labor, facilities, etc. If you want to keep costs closer to the numbers you mentioned, buy a crusty old boat left out in a field and neglected for years. Scoop it up cheap then spend $10k-$20k restoring it. There's no design cost there and your labor is free to do glass work, upholstery, and mechanical.

CALIV210 05-06-2016 12:28 PM

Super interesting ..not for my broke butt but interesting non the less .lol..I also agree the mark up is ridiculous on these things . But there are manufacturing costs and workers wages and workers comp and insurance and all the adds up as well .

beg4wake 05-06-2016 12:38 PM

^^^ Spot on!!! Most people don't understand the "behind the scenes" costs to developing these things! Yeah the actual computer system may only cost about 2-3k each unit, but what about all the time spent designing the software and working out the glitches and bugs so that they run correctly?! All of the R&D time spent doing trial and error and testing different hull designs to see which works the best?! All of the machinery needed to put everything together. That labor and equipment don't come free. If boat companies, or any product manufacturing company for that matter, only charged for material costs + labor costs + a marginal % of profit, then they would all soon lose money and have to close their doors. There are always overhead costs to consider and especially when designing these complicated pieces of equipment we call weekend toys...those costs can be very substantial!!! If you disagree, then why don't you go and design your own boat that performs as well as these top tier boats, build it including all the electronics and amenities they have and attention to detail, and see if you feel comfortable selling it for $40-50k!!!!

07STI 05-06-2016 2:00 PM

It's definitely not just the cost of materials and labor.

Design, testing, business insurance (GL, WC, Property, Auto, PL), payroll taxes, EE benefits, building (shop and office space), maintenance, utilities, attorney fees (defending lawsuits, filing patents, writing/reviewing product manuals), marketing, warranty, RE/PP taxes, all overhead labor (president/CEO, management, accounting, IT, engineering, sales, secretaries), all overhead supplies/equipment, the list goes on and on...

Every boat that is sold has to cover all of the expenses of running the business. From the cost of direct materials and labor, all the way down to the secretary and her computer, phone, pen.

The more boats they can produce/sell, the less it costs per boat for all the overhead/G&A. But the notion of being able to just "buy the materials and slap them together" for X $'s is ludicrous.

I doubt I'll be interested in the Reflect line, but I wish them well. Good to see innovation.

dougr 05-06-2016 7:03 PM

this is a leisure purchase. no one really cares the cost as long as they can afford what they want, if they can't afford what they want, then buy used or lower end products. All these boats are way over priced, but its not a market that has competition. Its a general concept that has pushed the price point to obtain the play aspect of the purchase. If it too expensive don't buy one. As for reality, no one needs "the best wake" or best wave, I know when i get a new boats its too expensive for what you get, but its part of the game. its just as fun to dream about a new ride or plan your next purchase as it is to enjoy it. If we where arguing the cost of living in a certain area, or housing prices then i could agree. Thats a realistic argument when trying to survive or provide a nice home for your fam, but this is stupid expendable income. If its not, then the companies would not be pumping out 120k boats.lol if you want lower prices, stop buys for 3 or so years and it will drop, or those who can afford to dump the funds push those who can't out of the market. Thats why everyone does not own a ferrari or live in million dollar homes.

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